Gay Marriage until...a break up. Why Gays need to walk the walk.

[SuperFemme]

I don't know if anyone has been following the break up of Melissa Etheridege and Tammy Lynn Michaels.

I don't care about the gossip or the personal issues.

I AM upset that Melissa Etheridge has always been a vocal proponent of Gay Marriage, and now that it is time for her to end hers? She wants to circumvent the privileges afforded with that.

She kicked her wife out, who is now penniless. She filed a motion in court not to have to pay spousal support. To the woman who quit her career so that Melissa could tour, and she could be home with the kids from a previous relationship. Then her wife gave birth to twins. Nursed her through cancer...

The had a wedding, but a domestic partnership, not a "marriage" in that window of time we were able to here in CA.

How seriously are people going to take us when something like this happens?

Does anyone have any feelings on the potential impact? Or is there potential impact?

Tammy Lynn Michaels filed for a Divorce, a political stance because to her, what the had was a marriage.

The whole thing has been making me think, because of how hard we have fought for our rights. How can that be a thing of convenience?

[Corkey]

Had no idea, and just because we are gay it doesn't erase our being human. Gay people will divorce for the same reasons str8 people do, its inevitable. We need to remove the pedestals we put these larger than life folks on, who are after all just human, like the rest of us.
Do I think it's going to be a field day with the right wing press, perhaps, but there are thousands every day that end marriages, these two are but a few.
Melissa has a poor relationship track record, from her own admission, so I chalk it up to the usual stresses on a relationship. I also think Tammy should get spousal support.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I don't know if anyone has been following the break up of Melissa Etheridege and Tammy Lynn Michaels.

I don't care about the gossip or the personal issues.

I AM upset that Melissa Etheridge has always been a vocal proponent of Gay Marriage, and now that it is time for her to end hers? She wants to circumvent the privileges afforded with that.

She kicked her wife out, who is now penniless. She filed a motion in court not to have to pay spousal support. To the woman who quit her career so that Melissa could tour, and she could be home with the kids from a previous relationship. Then her wife gave birth to twins. Nursed her through cancer...

The had a wedding, but a domestic partnership, not a "marriage" in that window of time we were able to here in CA.

How seriously are people going to take us when something like this happens?

Does anyone have any feelings on the potential impact? Or is there potential impact?

Tammy Lynn Michaels filed for a Divorce, a political stance because to her, what the had was a marriage.

The whole thing has been making me think, because of how hard we have fought for our rights. How can that be a thing of convenience?

this kind of argument came up when Masschessett's first gay divorce came up a few years back...technically we should not be held to a higher commitment standard than straight people are, and should not have to consider the political repercussions of our every relationship move any more than anybody else does, but i agree that the spotlight is on us to show we "deserve" (as if anyone does) the "special" rights we are asking for. So yes, the media and straight America will hold us to a higher standard.

i have to say, personally, i am very disappointed in this behavior from Melissa. I would have liked to have seen her take the same stance as Tammy. However, i am sure there is a lot we don't know about what is really going on.

[adorable]

Why, because we are gay, are we somehow held to a different standard then straight people? This is where the "people" part comes in.

Marriages split up all the time. Hollywood marriages/divorces/break ups are always seemingly more drama filled because everyone is watching and gets to follow along. There is far more straight drama filled hollywood breakups. The same thing plays out everyday privately straight or gay. When it comes to Hollywood drama, most people have the memory of a goldfish.

Remember Ellen & Anne Heche? I don't think it hurt gay marriage. People who are for gay marriage aren't suddenly going to stop being for it because Melissa Etheridge is a jerk. People who are against it aren't going to be more against it. (People who are against it probably don't listen to Melissa anyway lol) People in the middle of the road aren't going to look at gay people and say well, I would be "for it" but Melissa Etheridge screwed it up - she couldn't make it work - so I'm against it all now.

Divorces and break ups are generally ugly. Sexual orientation doesn't determine maturity level, parenting ability or personal accountability.

[TenderKnight]

Good topic.. You know, I have a lot of issues with Marriege anyway.. and the way that it has all panned out so far in the press and within the GLBT community, at least here in CA.

Do I think that GLBTQ folks should be held to a higher standard, no.. As others have stated, we are all humans and sometimes, shit happens. I don't think that just because one breaks up they aren't required to go through legal procedures, if they are together for an extended amount of time.

Blah.. I disagree with the whole *legal* thing anyway.. Are the folks fighting for gay marriege fighting for recognition as equal citizens, or are they fighting for the legal rights that straight folks get? *sighs* I'm not sure I'm even making sense, and I think that my beef needs it's own thread, lol.. Maybe I will start one.. In any case, I get what you mean about this example.. It seems to me that Melissa wants the best of both worlds.. The status of being MARRIED and the ease of just leaving when she wants without having to end the marrage.

[SuperFemme]

No. NO. NOOOOO!

I am not at all saying that gay people should be held to a higher standard.

In fact, I firmly believe that we should be held to the same standard as heterosexuals in regards to marriage and divorce.

Equal.

I don't care about the personal stuff of Melissa Etheridge and Tammy Lynn Michaels. At ALL.

I am just giving an example of a gay person fighting for rights, and then when it comes down to it, usurping those rights for an easy out.

This happens a lot in child custody cases between queers too.

I know that if I were to divorce, I would walk into court wanting the same rules as my peers. I know I would have to pay spousal support, and that is fine. I am proud of my marriage license at the same time as being ashamed of it. Being 1 of 18,000 puts us in a special and unequal class amongst our peers on the queer community who cannot get that same license.

We talked about marrying as a man and woman when beloved finished transitioning, but I cannot do it. My marriage is queer. Not that I don't fully support my peer that go that route, because it is what is right for them.

And even then it's scary. Look at Nikki in Wharton, TX. How the public is trying to make her marriage same sex, and change the rules.

I don't know. I just get freaked out when a person in the spotlight does this kind of thing. Not that they aren't human, but rather because they had to choose to go in the other direction for whatever reason.

I don't know if I am making sense. As usual. Please ask for clarification if you need it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

nor does it have a clause in it that gay people don't have the right to be happy with someone else when our relationships fail beyond repair.

I personally believe that unless my partner quits trying, after we get married, then we work through whatever, and I mean whatever, comes.

but I don't hold anyone else to my definition of commitment, straight or gay. They get to do that all by their grown up selves.

I'd hate to be frozen into saintly puritan behaviour out of fear of what the wank brigade is going to say about gay people.

I understand the frustration of having to fight for it for so long and then someone treats it with less reverance than someone else. But hey, if britney can do it, so can some dyke.

Jesus, how many times have people asked me to marry them until it became legal?? then suddenly.... *crickets* lmao - nah, I didn't think they actually meant it under all those hormones either at the time.

but people will catch up to the straights in terms of having disposable legal marriages.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

nor does it have a clause in it that gay people don't have the right to be happy with someone else when our relationships fail beyond repair.

I personally believe that unless my partner quits trying, after we get married, then we work through whatever, and I mean whatever, comes.

but I don't hold anyone else to my definition of commitment, straight or gay. They get to do that all by their grown up selves.

I'd hate to be frozen into saintly puritan behaviour out of fear of what the wank brigade is going to say about gay people.

I understand the frustration of having to fight for it for so long and then someone treats it with less reverance than someone else. But hey, if britney can do it, so can some dyke.

Jesus, how many times have people asked me to marry them until it became legal?? then suddenly.... *crickets* lmao - nah, I didn't think they actually meant it under all those hormones either at the time.

but people will catch up to the straights in terms of having disposable legal marriages.

These are all great points. With the exception that although Brittany did have a hours long marriage...she wasn't advocating for marriage as a civil right.

I think that is the thing that bugs me after hours and hours of work here in CA. It kind of takes the air out of my balloons in a way.

I'm not in fear of what the wing nuts will say: it's obvious that that is never going to change, but I do feel an undercurrent of hatred that is different that before.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

this kind of argument came up when Masschessett's first gay divorce came up a few years back...technically we should not be held to a higher commitment standard than straight people are, and should not have to consider the political repercussions of our every relationship move any more than anybody else does, but i agree that the spotlight is on us to show we "deserve" (as if anyone does) the "special" rights we are asking for. So yes, the media and straight America will hold us to a higher standard.

I have to agree, here.

i have to say, personally, i am very disappointed in this behavior from Melissa. I would have liked to have seen her take the same stance as Tammy. However, i am sure there is a lot we don't know about what is really going on.

I don't really want to know the personal aspects of their marriage and divorce, but what I think is that Etheridge, unfortunately, is displaying what many people do in a divorce.... being a jerk. Has not one thing to do with this being a same-sex marriage or domestic partnership. It is the human element of ugliness that can come out during a divorce. There have ben many times I have seen this by people I never would have thought could be so ugly.

I hope it calms down and they just think about the kids involved (not up on them, so do not know the ages of their children).

[Corkey]

What ever they do, or don't do as far as ending their relationship, yea well it's on them and how they handle it. If they were married under the same CA law that some others were, they should have to be divorced under CA law as well. That is reason, and practical. That Melissa wants to nullify her responsibility in dissolving her marriage I don't think she can just walk away free and clear.

[Rook]

hmm...
Someone said it best {and I think he's straight, not sure, I gotta find his name, damnit...}
"So they want the right to be Just as miserable as the rest of us? Go for it..When you're tired of it, fight for the right to endure the Endless Bliss of Divorce, custody and alimony"


Yes, we're held to a Higher Standard due to the fact we're {generally speaking} raising a Loud cry for Equal Marital rights...
But, Melissa's certainly not the first one to pull this...
I'll gladly refresh your memories
Let's discuss Martina Navratilova, who is , btw, enduring yet another Palimony issue..
No, she didnt "marry" per se, but she sure as hell hasn't learned her lesson...
Get a pre-nup !!
Anne Heche and Ellen DeGeneres aren't quite on the map, to my knowledge those 2 didnt marry..
Ellen did marry Portia though, and so far{knock on wood} they're blissfully happy....

As for Melissa trying to nullify stuff...
Plenty folks ask for Annulments, particularly Catholics..
Why can't she?
Higher Standards?
Trying to avoid Tammy's legal right to certain compensations for enduring lord knows what in the course of their Relationship?
The ones suffering, I'm pretty sure, besides Tammy, are the kids...
Bad enuff they seen Mum split once before, now they gotta watch Mums own community debate/dissect her separation to the last point...

In California, if you married for 10 years +, your Ex is entitled to a lot of stuff, unless stipulated prior to "I Do", which is why , I'm guessing, Tom Cruise kicked Nicole Kidman to the curb right before their 10th....

I could be wrong...

[Converse]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

Good topic.. You know, I have a lot of issues with Marriege anyway.. and the way that it has all panned out so far in the press and within the GLBT community, at least here in CA.

Do I think that GLBTQ folks should be held to a higher standard, no.. As others have stated, we are all humans and sometimes, shit happens. I don't think that just because one breaks up they aren't required to go through legal procedures, if they are together for an extended amount of time.

Blah.. I disagree with the whole *legal* thing anyway.. Are the folks fighting for gay marriege fighting for recognition as equal citizens, or are they fighting for the legal rights that straight folks get? *sighs* I'm not sure I'm even making sense, and I think that my beef needs it's own thread, lol.. Maybe I will start one.. In any case, I get what you mean about this example.. It seems to me that Melissa wants the best of both worlds.. The status of being MARRIED and the ease of just leaving when she wants without having to end the marrage.

I have no knowledge of the Etheridge situation (I only recently discovered that Ellen and Heche broke up, and that Madonna and Sean Penn are no longer an item), so I’m not the person to go to for commentary on celebratory happenings, but I do have very strong views on same-sex marriage.

I’m one of the fortunate ones whose marriage is legally recognized. I live in Canada. And for every one of those who has ever argued that the fight to have this happen is not important- I will be the most vocal in saying that they are wrong. Every form we fill in- the spouse column is always completed, a recent trip to the hospital meant that my voice was heard when seeking treatment for my wife who was too sick to speak for herself; my opinion is not disregarded by third parties when they only have her name as a contact and she’s not available. Because the law recognizes our relationship- regardless of any internal phobias, everyone who deals with us must also recognize it. Those who once used “Special friend” or any other words to describe our relationship can no longer do so without the embarrassment of being factually corrected.

To be able to enjoy all that is associated with being legally married, one has to understand that with that comes responsibility, including any consequences that are associated with divorce. The situation that SuperFemme is talking about seems like yet another sad example of why the fight for recognition of same sex marriages must be fought.

Separate to that I can not comment on the ethical way that Etheridge appears to have handled the break-up, but at face value this behaviour seems like a comment on her character- and something I hope any one considering a future with her pays special attention to. Something about a leopard not being able to change their spots…

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Converse

I

To be able to enjoy all that is associated with being legally married, one has to understand that with that comes responsibility, including any consequences that are associated with divorce. The situation that SuperFemme is talking about seems like yet another sad example of why the fight for recognition of same sex marriages must be fought.

Yes! That is exactly what I am speaking to.

[TenderKnight]

You know, I just spent about 30 minutes trying to express myself about how I feel about the whole marrege thing in a new thread.. And about 30 minutes into it I looked at the clock and said, WTF?? I don't even know where I'd post all the crap I was pouring onto the page.. lol

I guess the sum of it is this.. My folks have been together for almost 40 years.. They had tough times.. REALLY tough.. I remember the fights and stuff that went on behind thier closed doors when I was growing up.. Yet, today, they are still together and going strong. That is what a commited relationship is all about.. After the day was done, they love each other and are in a partnership.. You don't just leave. You stick it out.. You give each other space, you listen and HEAR what the other person is saying..

I guess that I'm a bit jaded.. I've always been in the heart space of let's work it out.. When my partner says that it's over and that's it, I don't get it.. I beleive that time is needed and when I give someone space, it is with the belief that in that space, we are still trying to work toward a common goal.. Seeing what we can do to make it work. I guess that not everyone feels that way..

I donno.. I am really trying not to dredge up past stuff here, but recently I met with an ex and there was still love for each other there.. No, I'm not going to try to get back with her.. She is in another space and she doesn't need me there. I can accept that.. My issue is that when we seperated the first time, we'd agreed that we'd give it time and see what comes after a certain amount of time, at that time, it was a year. In my head, I felt like that was the agreement.. Now, I realize that it is NOT fair for someone to put thier life on hold for another if that pewrson (me) was going through shit that was purely thier (my) space. I was trying to get sober and get my shit together..

Gah.. See what I mean?? lol.. I guess my point is that I'm a nester. When I'm commited, I'm there and I have a hard time NOT being there.. Maybe that is why I'm single?? lol.. I donno.

In the terms of marriage, i think that there is a lot of hype about being equal and stuff, but the under lying MEANING of marriage, to *ME* is better or for worse.. It isn't about the wedding, it isn't about tax breaks.. It's about being in a real and viable partnership.. When you bring the legal stuff in, it becomes a business of two (or more if you are poly and involved in more then one commited partnerships). It becomes legal. I feel that some people can and do abuse this, both gay folks and straight folks.. It becomes a trap to keep someone there and it becomes a safety net because if it doesn't work out, you can get compensated.

Bah.. Marriage is just such a eye roll for me these days.. I see 18 year olds getting married and then breaking up 2 years later.. I have been to many weddings and commitment ceramonies where the main point is that it's a huge show. A way to prove to one another that they mean business. That just boggles my mind. *sighs* I have no idea if I'm being clear at all and I actually looked for a thread about commitment and working things out.. I wasn't able to find one, but if I missed it, I'm sorry..

My point is this.. I really feel that some folks think of marriage as this magical realm and a happy ending. In my head, that is just the beginning of a long road full of awesome vistas and terrifing lows, a road that two people travel together. Sometimes people get distracted on the trip.. The other partner waits for them to catch up.. Some folks get fucking WORN OUT and need to stop walking for a bit.. That is when the other person stops and waits it out or maybe offers some comfort. Sometimes, maybe the two folks need a road map, and they seek for answers at the welcome station by the road (this would be finding a therapist or faith counceling). The road doesn't end and the point is to travel it together.

I feel that people put a lot of weight on the legal stuff and not enough on the commitment. That is my beef with the whole same-sex marriage thing.. People are turning it into some kind of beacon to hold and without the word MARRIAGE the relationship isn't as real in the eyes of the mainstream and the eyes of other GLBTQ folks. I beleive that if you are in a commited relationship and are living in the USA, you should be getting the same tax breaks and stuff, both good and bad.

Another point of making a relationship *legal* and putting it on the books.. It is now not only a spiritual contract, but a business contract as well. That involves courts and lawyers and judges and money and property. Not to mention if thier happen to be children involved..

OK, I think I'm done.. I hope that some of that ramble was clear and my points got across.. I truely need an editor when I post like this.. lol

SuperFemme, I hope that my ramble is on topic and relavent to this thread.. Thank you for starting the thread and I look forward to reading more posts within it.

In Light,
Tony

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by adorable

Why, because we are gay, are we somehow held to a different standard then straight people? This is where the "people" part comes in.

Marriages split up all the time. Hollywood marriages/divorces/break ups are always seemingly more drama filled because everyone is watching and gets to follow along. There is far more straight drama filled hollywood breakups. The same thing plays out everyday privately straight or gay. When it comes to Hollywood drama, most people have the memory of a goldfish.

Remember Ellen & Anne Heche? I don't think it hurt gay marriage. People who are for gay marriage aren't suddenly going to stop being for it because Melissa Etheridge is a jerk. People who are against it aren't going to be more against it. (People who are against it probably don't listen to Melissa anyway lol) People in the middle of the road aren't going to look at gay people and say well, I would be "for it" but Melissa Etheridge screwed it up - she couldn't make it work - so I'm against it all now.

Divorces and break ups are generally ugly. Sexual orientation doesn't determine maturity level, parenting ability or personal accountability.

I don't know that it hurt gay marriage, per-se, but it certainly made a scene out of it. I think Anne is a nutcase and was with Ellen because she had hopes of furthering her career. I don't know the woman, but the way she acted during and after their relationship was WEIRD. I think it made a spectacle of both of them. It certainly didn't help our cause.

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by Converse

I have no knowledge of the Etheridge situation (I only recently discovered that Ellen and Heche broke up, and that Madonna and Sean Penn are no longer an item), so I’m not the person to go to for commentary on celebratory happenings, but I do have very strong views on same-sex marriage.

I’m one of the fortunate ones whose marriage is legally recognized. I live in Canada. And for every one of those who has ever argued that the fight to have this happen is not important- I will be the most vocal in saying that they are wrong. Every form we fill in- the spouse column is always completed, a recent trip to the hospital meant that my voice was heard when seeking treatment for my wife who was too sick to speak for herself; my opinion is not disregarded by third parties when they only have her name as a contact and she’s not available. Because the law recognizes our relationship- regardless of any internal phobias, everyone who deals with us must also recognize it. Those who once used “Special friend” or any other words to describe our relationship can no longer do so without the embarrassment of being factually corrected.

To be able to enjoy all that is associated with being legally married, one has to understand that with that comes responsibility, including any consequences that are associated with divorce. The situation that SuperFemme is talking about seems like yet another sad example of why the fight for recognition of same sex marriages must be fought.

Separate to that I can not comment on the ethical way that Etheridge appears to have handled the break-up, but at face value this behaviour seems like a comment on her character- and something I hope any one considering a future with her pays special attention to. Something about a leopard not being able to change their spots…

Converse, thank you for this input.. You know, the legal right to be recognized IS important and I will fight fucking tooth and nail for it, I guess the word "marriage" triggers me on a lot of levels.. Will have to think on that one..

[Apocalipstic]

Yes, I think if Gays marry we should have to get a real divorce.

But we don't know what is really happening? or do we? Personally?

In straight marriages almost no one get's alimony (I read 4%) any more and the court refused to give Tammy 25K beacause Melissa is paying all Tammy's bills according to court documents.

Melissa wants to share custody of the twins, Tammy wants 100% custody.

Next court date is in September.

I don't know what really happened, it should be interesting to see how the courts rule! I think comments on Melissa's character may be premature?

Intesting subject SF!

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Yes, I think if Gays marry we should have to get a real divorce.

But we don't know what is really happening? or do we? Personally?

In straight marriages almost no one get's alimony (I read 4%) any more and the court refused to give Tammy 25K beacause Melissa is paying all Tammy's bills according to court documents.

Melissa wants to share custody of the twins, Tammy wants 100% custody.

Next court date is in September.

I don't know what really happened, it should be interesting to see how the courts rule! I think comments on Melissa's character may be premature?

Intesting subject SF!

The line I bolded is what I want to talk about.

I don't know the particulars of the singers break up, nor do I want to. I was just using it as an example - of a visible queer that has advocated for Gay Marriage, and is not ending hers like everyone else who has been afforded that basic civil right.

Perhaps Melissa Etheridge was a bad example? I just read something about it and it made me start thinking, hence the subject in this thread.

[Corkey]

If Ami and I were to ever divorce one of us would have to live in Canada for 6 months to abide by the country's divorce laws. There are no easy solutions to divorce, just as entering into marriage is something of a serious act. I know those of us who are married here take our commitment very seriously. Divorce is serious as well, both for the financial and emotional aspects. A certain maturity is required to be married. That doesn't end when getting a divorce.
When I married Ami it was for the rest of my life, I made a conscious decision to work always on our marriage. I'm not a youngster who is still looking for the greener pastures. My life is full and wonderful.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Corkey

If Ami and I were to ever divorce one of us would have to live in Canada for 6 months to abide by the country's divorce laws. There are no easy solutions to divorce, just as entering into marriage is something of a serious act. I know those of us who are married here take our commitment very seriously. Divorce is serious as well, both for the financial and emotional aspects. A certain maturity is required to be married. That doesn't end when getting a divorce.
When I married Ami it was for the rest of my life, I made a conscious decision to work always on our marriage. I'm not a youngster who is still looking for the greener pastures. My life is full and wonderful.

I agree with you about the entire concept of marriage. I also agree with whomever it was that pointed out that marriage is the beginning of a journey...not the end of one.

It takes work, hard work sometimes. It also means that we should be aware of the consequences on each other and our families should the marriage end. By divorce or by death....

I don't think I'll ever get divorced, but if I did, I would sure not shirk my responsibilities. I would allow my kids a relationship, rather than using them as a tool as so often happens. I would not cut anyone out of our family using anti-gay ideology. Of course, that is "me", my views and I am not trying to project them on anyone else.

Over the past five years, being an activist for Gay Marriage here in CA and being in the trenches...with that raw emotion? I think I maybe take it too personally when I see a gay person who has a track record of being an activist for the same thing, do something so opposite I suppose.

As I mentioned, our marriage license is a love hate thing. I love that we have it, and have no idea at the moment if we are going to keep it, or if the repeal of our civil rights will erase it forever. It hurts my heart to see people I love filling out DP papers, rather than getting a license. I almost feel like a traitor sometimes.

I know lots of people think the word marriage is disposable, and the sticking point. That if we just call it something else, they'll acquiesce. I don't want something else. I want equal rights.

And I am prepared (as are thousands of my peers) to take those rights seriously, just like I take my marriage seriously.