More on where do I fit in? Labels, why do we need them?

[laruss]

I write a blog and usually it is about inspiration and creativity and my journey through that. This week however I have been really thinking a lot about labels and I had already posted a thread under 'Gender and Identity' called "Where do I fit in?", but I wanted to share my blog article as well. I am looking to generate discussion.

http://wisdomworks-laruss.blogspot.c...-need-one.html

I open this up to discussion and my questions are... What's your label, how did you come up with that label and do you need a label?

I have changed how I identify on this sight 3 or 4 times and I have only been here a few days.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Can you tell I'm having a mini crisis this week??

[Corkey]

Human is my label, He is my pronoun, Transgendered is my gender, my biology is female. I am differently abled and older than dirt. I am married and happy. That should cover just about everything.

[Toughy]

I don't consider my gender identifications (woman butch) to be a label. I don't consider my sexual orientation a label.

What do you mean by label?

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by laruss

I write a blog and usually it is about inspiration and creativity and my journey through that. This week however I have been really thinking a lot about labels and I had already posted a thread under 'Gender and Identity' called "Where do I fit in?", but I wanted to share my blog article as well. I am looking to generate discussion.

http://wisdomworks-laruss.blogspot.c...-need-one.html

I open this up to discussion and my questions are... What's your label, how did you come up with that label and do you need a label?

I have changed how I identify on this sight 3 or 4 times and I have only been here a few days.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Can you tell I'm having a mini crisis this week??

I guess for me, identity "labels" have become more and more for situations where people just don't "get" it or for socio-political reasons where you need obvious visibility for something outside the norm. It can also be for finding community and building community when our societies still haven't fully come to accept human diversity. Basically, you often need some kind of discourse before you can find others who feel similarly as you.

I identify as queer as far as my sexual orientation, and transguy as far as my sex (which is important for me to make clear that I occupy a sexed space that is neither female nor cissexed male, but transmale). Butch (still male-identified) is another that is still a part of me.

Queer is probably among the most stable of my identities simply because the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework. I actually see queer identity, for myself, as important especially when in Canada there's still a lot of G/L folks and straight-identified folks who think rights struggles are over since marriage equality happened (without challenging the oppressive origins and implications of the marriage institution) and basically are still on a crusade to prove that "we're just like everyone else." Basically the party Pride culture, white gay male "professionals" and the white picket fence. Whereas being politically queer, to me, means making the challenge to normativity (sexual, ability, racial, gender, sexed etc.), and not just to the "heterosexual" world. Queer is important to me because it's an identity that really acknowledges its function as an identity within a social/political context.

Trans at this point for me is probably not as static. As I mentioned above, the identity of transmale is important for me as far as continuing to push for the recognition of sex beyond cissexed female and cissexed male. I fall into the trans category as far as we understand it here, but I see it as temporal and definitely very socially and politically motivated. If society ever realises that more than two or three sexes exist, and that sex can't actually be defined within the narrow confines it is today, then "trans" itself won't need to be such a fixed identity. Mostly I'm content with "non-normatively sexed" for whatever it means. I also see the real importance of a trans identity (for me) on a political scale, as far as trans rights in Canada (mostly in amending the approach to medical care, acceptance within athletic competition at every level that cis people can compete in, acceptance in society as just as legitimate as cis people etc) and generally changing public attitudes.

On the other hand, all three identities for me hold personal value. When I was first really coming to accept myself and understand myself when it came to my sex, the b/f community and understanding myself through formation of my butch identity. That history is not going to go away and it's not something I intend to throw by the way side. Same with trans as an identity and everything it brought me with understanding myself.

Basically, identity labels mean whatever you want them to mean. Some of them are relevant because of the society we live in, some of them forced upon us, others we can reclaim or use for political/social change. Others might just help you understand you a little bit better until a time comes when you don't feel you need that discourse anymore. I think they're definitely relevant in a society that denies so many of us our own diversity; that tells us that heterosexuality is "norm" and "natural" state of being, that there are only two sexes, that gender/interests are tied to the current medical communities understanding of "biological" sex etc. It's a way of finding a place for yourself in a world that claims you don't exist.

[aishah]

my sexual orientation is queer (technically speaking i am pansexual but i prefer the term queer). my gender identity is femme (and i was assigned female at birth so i am cisgendered). i'm disabled and mixed (native/white).

these are not labels to me...they are all integral parts of who i am as a human being. they define me, sometimes in ways that are supportive and other times in ways that are difficult to deal with. sometimes they are useful for communicating my particular understanding of the world to other people. claiming who i am has been a powerful process, for me, of creating a space of authenticity in a world where bodies like mine are not valued and where people would not only rather erase my differences, but in some cases wish to literally eradicate people like me from existence. knowing who i am gives me strength.

there are labels that i have that might communicate parts of how i see the world or struggles/joys that i face, for example i am muslim. but these things are not quite as deeply tied into how i define and understand myself. the label of muslim isn't always useful for communicating what i believe (in terms of religion). sometimes it is. so some parts of who i am are not so deeply static or ingrained. 'polyamorous' is a label that describes how my relationships are structured and how i approach relationships - i go back and forth on whether i see it as an integral part of my identity.

Queer is probably among the most stable of my identities simply because the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework. I actually see queer identity, for myself, as important especially when in Canada there's still a lot of G/L folks and straight-identified folks who think rights struggles are over since marriage equality happened (without challenging the oppressive origins and implications of the marriage institution) and basically are still on a crusade to prove that "we're just like everyone else." Basically the party Pride culture, white gay male "professionals" and the white picket fence. Whereas being politically queer, to me, means making the challenge to normativity (sexual, ability, racial, gender, sexed etc.), and not just to the "heterosexual" world. Queer is important to me because it's an identity that really acknowledges its function as an identity within a social/political context.

i love your whole post, ender, but particularly this part. i relate so much to this.

[Quintease]

My species: Homo sapien
My nationality: Yes I have one
My gender: Cisgendered Female
My gender presentation: Femme
My gender orientation: Lesbian. I couldn't believe people actually thought I would just 'change' my orientation after getting married, as though something I was born with and identified with was negotiable.
My social orientation: Queer (as I'm married now)

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Queer is probably among the most stable of my identities simply because the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework.

I actually see queer identity, for myself, as important especially when in Canada there's still a lot of G/L folks and straight-identified folks who think rights struggles are over since marriage equality happened (without challenging the oppressive origins and implications of the marriage institution) and basically are still on a crusade to prove that "we're just like everyone else." Basically the party Pride culture, white gay male "professionals" and the white picket fence.

Whereas being politically queer, to me, means making the challenge to normativity (sexual, ability, racial, gender, sexed etc.), and not just to the "heterosexual" world. Queer is important to me because it's an identity that really acknowledges its function as an identity within a social/political context.

First, Ender, thank you for this post! I broke this section into three parts so I could focus on your points; I hope that's okay.

Thank you, in particular, for validating my reaction to the intense and sometimes domineering focus on marriage rights, that I've experienced in the LGBT community.

What's been hard for me—since it became a prominent issue when Clinton was first elected—was that marriage seemed the ONLY social justice issue visible to the white, professional gay and lesbian community I was part of.

As I gradually became more involved in the literacy community (and left my wealthy white lover and her friends), my companions and friends included more straight people, more people of color, more academics and writers, older people, and in general, people who were extremely left in their politics.

And for the first time—now detached from a middle- and upper-class GLBT core of people—I was able to talk critically about the institution of marriage without someone pressuring me to get on the pro-marriage bandwagon and essentially, join them in emulating straight culture, right down to the registry at Bloomingdale's.

Now, many years later, and with marriage legal in my state, I've had more than a couple women say to me, about my relationship, So when are you two getting married?

And suddenly I feel pressure to marry, and even have some empathy for straight women hitting a certain age, in a culture that has capitalistic, religious, or just traditional reasons for wanting her to be married.

(Which is not to say, marriage doesn't protect women (and sometimes men) financially.)

Thank you for making a space where I could say that.

Also, thank you for speaking so clearly about what it means to be queer.

You wrote, "...the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework."

I'm queer!

I don't embrace "femme" anymore, because my partner (who looks and acts in what I would identify as a very butch manner!), doesn't relate to the butch-femme identities or culture, and since my femme identity was always contextual—I put it out there as a shortcut in my search for a butch lover—it felt like one hand clapping for a while, and then I just didn't "feel" it at all.

Queer, as you describe it, is me to a T. Yes, I exist "outside a sexually normative framework"—totally.

PS, I know many women ID as femme whether their lover is butch, trans, a lesbian, whatever—I respect you and ask you not to denigrate the contextual nature of my femme ID. Thank you!

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

[COLOR="DimGray"][FONT="Fixedsys"][SIZE="3"]And for the first time—now detached from a middle- and upper-class GLBT core of people—I was able to talk critically about the institution of marriage without someone pressuring me to get on the pro-marriage bandwagon and essentially, join them in emulating straight culture, right down to the registry at Bloomingdale's.

Now, many years later, and with marriage legal in my state, I've had more than a couple women say to me, about my relationship, So when are you two getting married?

And suddenly I feel pressure to marry, and even have some empathy for straight women hitting a certain age, in a culture that has capitalistic, religious, or just traditional reasons for wanting her to be married.

Yeah, I really think the next real struggle for the queer community is going to be (and probably already is) really getting out there and talking about why gaining marriage equality may not have actually meant that much for queer rights. Obviously, every person should have the same rights as others so that if a straight cis couple are legally able to marry, then same-sex couples and trans people should also be able to marry legally. At the same time, there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

And I agree, a lot of spaces do really make it hard for people to talk about. I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.

[Nadeest]

Honestly, I would like the ability to get married, come what may. Mind you, theoritically, given that I am primarily attracted to women, and.......... I am a pre-op mtf, I could get married, right now. Still, sooner or later, I am going to have GRS, too, so then what? In either case, I want people to have the freedom to marry whom they choose, regardless of gender.
However, I am not saying that monogamous marriages are the only way to go, either. Polyamory should certainly be legalized and accepted as well, to my mind.

[kittygrrl]

I think labeling is especially useful when someone is trying to figure out what feels good and where they fit socially..I think being a queer woman now is a lot different then it was 15 years ago when p.c was in and just about everything else was thrown "out" (at least this was my experience)..having nothing for comparison was a bit hard on my psyche (being femme) so I can't imagine how difficult it may have been for transgender etc..so I don't see anything wrong with labeling if it helps you personally..what's not so appreciated is when someone else is doing the labeling..imo

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

...there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

...I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.

Yes, I have been in that situation, too! It would have been great to have a friend like you there, at the time.

[Nadeest]

Labels can definitely be useful, but......... we have to remember that they are only general descriptions and not fully accurate.

As far as marriage goes, that produces legal and financial advantages that we are being denied, though straight people are not. This, to my mind, is wrong.

There are other things that we need, as a culture, though, that have been denied to us, this is absolutely certain. We shouldn't be subject to being fired or harrassed, simply because of our orientation or gender status. Nor should we have to put up with discrimination anywhere, because of this. Unfortunately, we still get this in our lives, and it is totally wrong. This needs to be changed.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Nadeest

Labels can definitely be useful, but......... we have to remember that they are only general descriptions and not fully accurate.

As far as marriage goes, that produces legal and financial advantages that we are being denied, though straight people are not. This, to my mind, is wrong.

There are other things that we need, as a culture, though, that have been denied to us, this is absolutely certain. We shouldn't be subject to being fired or harrassed, simply because of our orientation or gender status. Nor should we have to put up with discrimination anywhere, because of this. Unfortunately, we still get this in our lives, and it is totally wrong. This needs to be changed.

It is wrong, but I also think it has to do with the American system. In Canada, there are virtually no financial/legal benefits that married couples get that unmarried couples cannot have. A few years before same-sex marriage laws were passed in Canada, same-sex couples were ruled to be able to have the same rights as other couples. Marriage then becomes largely personal, ceremonial and about expressing a legal "commitment" to a relationship.

I see the single-minded focus on the marriage issue that's happening in the US right now as one that does not benefit some of the most marginalised folks within the queer and trans communities in the same way that focusing on raising awareness and legal protection from discrimination and harassment would. If you look at why many say the marriage rights struggle in the US is important, and then look at the queer/trans community in Canada, I think it becomes clear how same-sex marriage really isn't just a gateway into working on more queer/trans rights.

Same-sex marriage has been legal for years here, and all it's done is produce a false idea in the heads of many L/G folks and straight folks that lgbt rights struggles are over because people can marry. Most of those folks don't much care about homophobia still occurring in many communities and environments in the city, about racism, transphobia, sex worker rights, the rights of those who are differently abled and how they experience homophobia or transphobia differently.

It produces this mentality, which is still pretty popular in the gaybourhood, today:

http://www.thegridto.com/city/sexual...-of-a-new-gay/

That's why I think that, yeah, marriage should be equal like all rights should be equal...but it's really not the most important rights issue facing a heck of a large chunk of the lgbt community, imo.

Edit: that and I still think it privileges a certain idea of "family" and "relationship," that is based on a whole bunch of "isms." Even if poly marriages were to be legalised, we still need to deal with the fact of how it is abused by straight religious people, who just want more ways to abuse women within the "sanctity" of marriage. Beyond legal commitment, in a world where married couples are not privileged over unmarried couples, the reasons for marriage become fewer and fewer, imo. Plus it is also about what IslandScout was saying, which basically creates social pressure to marry as though it is the only logical end to a relationship.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yeah, I really think the next real struggle for the queer community is going to be (and probably already is) really getting out there and talking about why gaining marriage equality may not have actually meant that much for queer rights. Obviously, every person should have the same rights as others so that if a straight cis couple are legally able to marry, then same-sex couples and trans people should also be able to marry legally. At the same time, there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

And I agree, a lot of spaces do really make it hard for people to talk about. I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.

I have been saying for years that marriage equality is the last thing that should be on the 'gay agenda'. You can just imagine how well liked I am in many (if not most) of the non-marginalized segments of the G & L communities. I see the marriage agenda as just more assimilation and tolerance. I'm more about liberation and acceptance. Many years ago Urvashi Vaid wrote a great book Virtual Equality: The Mainstreaming of Gay and Lesbian Liberation . It's a must read.

....end of my derail......

[Sachita]

The whole label thing trips me out. Not only with gender but sexuality- top, bottom, etc. I consider myself queer and within the very broad spectrum. I'm at the point in my life that when someone ask me what I am I reply "What day of the week is it?" lol

I'm flexible when it comes to life. Chances are I probably would not date or marry a man, based on my history but I have learned to never say never. Chances are I'm best suited for one who is submissive, since i am naturally dominant, however there could be that one person who has awesome chemistry with me and we are both dominant. Who knows? I've lived long enough and done enough crazy shit in my life to know that I'm down with "whatever" based on who I'm doing it with,

[T4Texas]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

I think labeling is especially useful when someone is trying to figure out what feels good and where they fit socially..

I agree with this. For me, the label butch is an advertisement of who I am and what Im interested in.

[Nadeest]

Interesting, EnderD, and I do think that you have some very, very good points for all to consider.

[G Snap!]

I hope you are feeling better now, Laruss, it's been a month...

I think I can say I know how you feel, when it comes to the question "what is my label?" I was there for a little bit. I searched the internet, read a dozen write-ups on label definitions, and asked friends. I threw around a few, and questioned "what would others think if I presented such- and- such as a label?"
I do find the whole topic uncomfortable, as your chosen label can mean one thing, and something different when you start discussing what you do behind closed doors.
I think the whole label thing tries to identify gender and sexual preference in one way when they're two different things. And as sexual preference is not limited to what gender you prefer, it is still limiting as one person is different from the next and the traditional list of labels may not fit you.

I am a girl, who likes men, living with a man who's driver licence has a F next to "sex". As I identify as female, and my partner identifies as a man, I am straight. And as I don't care to discuss what my man and I do when we're alone, I will tell you our sexual relationship is traditional and the details are none of your business. (We like to keep our friends guessing.) I like to say "I am gay because I am happy, thank you very much!" And I refuse to choose a label as I hate them (and also think the "sex" should be removed from driver's licences.)

I am glad BFP has more than one spot for everyone to express their individuality and does not have a pre-chosen, check off box setup. I love seeing the variations people put on labels, trying to express their individuality!

No, you don't have to have a label. My advice for anyone who is currently confused about their "label" should either not worry about that and say " I don't ave one" or go ahead and wear what you think applies for a little while, and change it if you need to. Yes, you may change it if you like. If anyone wants to "get into it with you" about not choosing a label, tell them you haven't found one that doesn't fit - and be firm about this so you don't get sucked into arguing over it - like I was.

[deedarino]

My Label: Woman, Femme, Gay, Happy, Strong, Determined, Curious, Intelligent, Emotional, Open, Beautiful, Stone-ish, with submissive whisperings...My label doesn't change, but my experiences do. And with each of those, I reserve the right to change my mind. Forever.

[Okiebug61]

If I had to choose a label it would be as follows.

Okiebug the humanist
Okiebug the lesbian
Okiebug the light butch


Ok lets just say my label would be Okiebug :-)