Obama's Health Care Overhaul: Your Opinions

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by casey35

If you dont have insurance which i dont then it should be your responsablity to get some.

Originally Posted by casey35

I do not believe that the government should tell me what i can do and what i cant.

Okay, let me get this straight. You don't have insurance. You think it's everyone's responsibility to get insurance. You don't think the the government should tell you that you have to get insurance.

While I ponder the hypocrisy, I'll point out a few things. When the Republicans jumped on the "everyone must have insurance" bandwagon years ago, it was all about "personal responsibility" and that those who are responsible and have insurance shouldn't have to pay for the irresponsible folks who don't have insurance. Now that the Democrats are asking for the same thing, it's "the government forcing". Bottom line, if everyone was responsible (republican word) and got insurance, then the government wouldn't have to force you (democrat word) to get it.

Oh, and government tells citizens, institutions, corporations, etc. every damn day in a thousand different ways what we can and can't do. They're called laws, and without them we'd have anarchy rather than society.

[betenoire]

I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I do hope that eventually your government moves toward a more Canadian model of healthcare.

Because then you won't have less power and control over your lives than what you have now - you will have more.

Imagine how nice it would be to go to ANY doctor you wanted to go to, rather than only being able to choose from one of the half-dozen doctors mandated by your shitty insurance policy?

Those of you who think that you'll be taxed out the ass for this health care don't know what you are talking about. You just don't. I am married to an american who still lives in the US. I know what I pay in taxes a month. I also know what he pays for his insurance. Between his insurance and "copays" he pays out MORE than I do a month in taxes. Add to that his taxes and he pays out way WAY more a month than I do. Just to survive and have something that resembles a good quality of living. What kind of bullshit is that?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I do hope that eventually your government moves toward a more Canadian model of healthcare.

Because then you won't have less power and control over your lives than what you have now - you will have more.

Imagine how nice it would be to go to ANY doctor you wanted to go to, rather than only being able to choose from one of the half-dozen doctors mandated by your shitty insurance policy?

Those of you who think that you'll be taxed out the ass for this health care don't know what you are talking about. You just don't. I am married to an american who still lives in the US. I know what I pay in taxes a month. I also know what he pays for his insurance. Between his insurance and "copays" he pays out MORE than I do a month in taxes. Add to that his taxes and he pays out way WAY more a month than I do. Just to survive and have something that resembles a good quality of living. What kind of bullshit is that?

As a Canadian living here, I've discovered that as well. The quality of doctor I see (I go to the Callen-Lorde Center in Manhattan) is equal to what I got in Toronto. It boggles my mind why I pay for insurance and then, on top of that, I have to do a co-pay. K and I have discussed it and we'll likely move to the likes of either BC or Halifax when we have kids. I've determined there is no way we could afford all the coughs, scrapped knees, broken bones and the like if we remained in the US.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Linus

As a Canadian living here, I've discovered that as well. The quality of doctor I see (I go to the Callen-Lorde Center in Manhattan) is equal to what I got in Toronto. It boggles my mind why I pay for insurance and then, on top of that, I have to do a co-pay. K and I have discussed it and we'll likely move to the likes of either BC or Halifax when we have kids. I've determined there is no way we could afford all the coughs, scrapped knees, broken bones and the like if we remained in the US.

Exactly. That's another one of the lies that people are told and then pass on. Health Care in the US is -not- better quality care than it is in Canada.

People sometimes ask if I would move to the US rather than have Nick move to Canada. I always look at them as though they are insane. Of COURSE not.

When I moved back to Ontario after a year in BC I forgot to let OHIP know that I was back in the province. So after 3 months of not living in BC I lost my BC coverage, and I didn't have coverage from Ontario yet because I didn't remember to go ask for it. Anyway. Long story short I had to go see my family doctor once and pay for it out of pocket. It cost me $27 dollars. I'm pretty sure that Nick's COPAY is higher in the US than my uninsured doctor visit in Canada cost.

Damn, healthcare in the US must be really not be cost-efficient at all. I guess that's what you get when healthcare is overseen by people out to make lots and lots of money.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Exactly. That's another one of the lies that people are told and then pass on. Health Care in the US is -not- better quality care than it is in Canada.

People sometimes ask if I would move to the US rather than have Nick move to Canada. I always look at them as though they are insane. Of COURSE not.

When I moved back to Ontario after a year in BC I forgot to let OHIP know that I was back in the province. So after 3 months of not living in BC I lost my BC coverage, and I didn't have coverage from Ontario yet because I didn't remember to go ask for it. Anyway. Long story short I had to go see my family doctor once and pay for it out of pocket. It cost me $27 dollars. I'm pretty sure that Nick's COPAY is higher in the US than my uninsured doctor visit in Canada cost.

Damn, healthcare in the US must be really not be cost-efficient at all. I guess that's what you get when healthcare is overseen by people out to make lots and lots of money.

Interesting that you should bring up the "profit factor" in the American health care system. It wasn't always like this. Here's the originations of the idea that American health care should be a means for big business to make enormous amounts of money for not caring for Americans.



I find it uniquely interesting that Kaiser Permanente has this huge ol' website "explaining" how Obama's health care legislation can "work". And if this recent legislation is so damned "good", why are the likes of Kasier (which runs the largest of the FOR profit health care systems ) in favor of it??

See why I don't trust any of them?? That ol' "if it looks too good to be true...." keeps rumbling around in the back of my brain.

~Theo~

[Toughy]

Kaiser is a funny animal.........it is both for-profit and not-for profit.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Permanente

Kaiser Permanente is an integrated managed care organization, based in Oakland, California, United States, founded in 1945 by industrialist Henry Kaiser and physician Sidney Garfield. Kaiser Permanente is a consortium of three distinct groups of entities: the Kaiser Foundation Health Plan and its regional operating subsidiaries, Kaiser Foundation Hospitals, and the autonomous regional Permanente Medical Groups. As of 2006, Kaiser Permanente operates in nine states and the District of Columbia, and is the largest managed care organization in the United States.

Kaiser Permanente has 8.6 million health plan members,[2] 167,300 employees,[2] 14,600 physicians,[2] 35 medical centers,[2] 431 medical offices,[2] and $1.3 billion in net income on $34.4 billion in operating revenues.[1] The Health Plan and Hospitals operate under state and federal non-profit tax status, while the Medical Groups operate as for-profit partnerships or professional corporations in their respective regions.

[betenoire]

I've seen that clip from Sicko before, but it didn't strike me as any less sick this time. I'm sorry, but anybody who can hear "All the incentives are toward less medical care, because the less care they give them the more money they make" and think "I like that!" is just an appallingly terrible person.

And did you see how much Nixon blinked when he said "And I want every american to be able to have that care when they need it"? Excessive blinking is one of the ways to tell someone is lying.

[casey35]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

Okay, let me get this straight. You don't have insurance. You think it's everyone's responsibility to get insurance. You don't think the the government should tell you that you have to get insurance.

While I ponder the hypocrisy, I'll point out a few things. When the Republicans jumped on the "everyone must have insurance" bandwagon years ago, it was all about "personal responsibility" and that those who are responsible and have insurance shouldn't have to pay for the irresponsible folks who don't have insurance. Now that the Democrats are asking for the same thing, it's "the government forcing". Bottom line, if everyone was responsible (republican word) and got insurance, then the government wouldn't have to force you (democrat word) to get it.

Oh, and government tells citizens, institutions, corporations, etc. every damn day in a thousand different ways what we can and can't do. They're called laws, and without them we'd have anarchy rather than society.

I pay for my own medical bills out of my pocket. The fact that i have a full time job dont mean i have insurance. I have always paid my medical bills out of pocket. I guess i am damn lucky i am not sickly.

[Diavolo]

Personally I don't think Obama's health plan went far enough. I think left to his own devices, it would have. I think he is a very smart man with a very keen understanding of what we face here in America. But he had to negotiate and it's not what it could have been. I also learned something from the husband of a friend of mine. He work in the Senate. The news was making a big deal out of how many pages the bill was. According to Matt, it's mostly triple spaced and it doesn't take that long for anyone to read the bill.

I lived in German in the late 70's. I hurt my foot to the point that I couldn't walk on it. I had to go to a German Doctor. The school referred me to a guy. I went, I saw him three times, he fixed my foot and there was never a bill for his services. About 5 years ago a friend of mine was at a wedding in Italy. She slipped off of a curb and shattered her ankle. The Italian Doctor patched her up, casted her foot, gave her crutches and sent her no bill.

I don't want the Government to be everything to everyone, but it needs to be something to the people. Personally, I want the same health plan that is provided to Congress. Period.

Currently I have Kaiser. My deductable is $2700 and I have a 30% co-pay. I pay $300 a month for that privilege. I currently hold 27 powerlifting records and I rode my bike on three 100 mile rides last year and did all the training necessary to accomplish that. I cannot get Blue Cross. I told them to send their CEO into the parking lot and I would kick his ass just to prove my healthiness. But because I'm 200 pounds of 51yo muscle with a ticker that's gone haywire twice in the last 15 years, they won't insure me. I don't have any high risk behavior. I'm just solid like a rock. It's bullshit. I want that same plan that Chuck Grassley has. I'm in much better shape than that asshat.

[key]

Originally Posted by casey35

I pay for my own medical bills out of my pocket. The fact that i have a full time job dont mean i have insurance. I have always paid my medical bills out of pocket. I guess i am damn lucky i am not sickly.

Yeah, Casey, you are lucky you are not sickly, What do you suppose should happen to those who are not so lucky? Should we just let people die on the streets if they can't afford to pay out of pocket or get insurance?

This is a serious question, Casey, what do you suppose we do with the 23 year old "healthy person" who has a serious auto accident. Let's say it was no one's fault - just hit some black ice, wiped out and broke their neck. Should we just kick them out of the ER as soon as we learn they do not have the money to cover the costs?

Let's change that scenario to a middle aged woman between jobs who discovers a lump in her breast? How much do you think Cancer treatment costs? Should we toss her out if she can't afford it?

I am asking sincerely Casey, in your world, what is your plan for these people?

[casey35]

Well let see, we have people who dont work they dont want to work so us tax payer pay their bills. We have those who dont want to take their kids to the doctor they would just perfer to take them to the e r. We have those who are druggies that we pay for. You know what i am one who is tired of paying for those who cant get off their ass and work. I paid for my own son being born. When i went to set up payments they treated me like shit because i did not have medicaid. What the hell is that. I dont take no hand out from anyone. I think the health care is bad but i dont think the government running it is any better. I know my opinion is not your taste but guess what i dont take anything from anyone i pay my own way in this life.

[key]

respectfully, I would really appreciate it if you answered my question.

I repeat: What is you plan for the above two scenarios?

No need to get all angry, I am asking a sincere question as respectfully as I can. Would you grant me the same courtesy and answer it?

Thanks.

key

[Jess]

I have a question regarding the buy a policy or pay a penalty thing. I'm serious, because I haven't seen or read it anywhere.

If you can't afford the insurance and instead opt for paying a penalty.. what do you do for healthcare? Continue on as folks have done going to an ER for a cough due to cold? Wait for an astronomical bill to come that you can't pay and let it get taken from your state taxes? I guess my question is.. do you pay a penalty and THEN pay the same bill you couldn't afford without this plan?

If socialism means an across the board policy ( like Canada) wherein healthcare is paid for via taxes, then I am all about some socialism. Bring it!

Healthcare means so much more than any of our politicians think or espouse. It’s being able to see your doctor when you are sick as often as is necessary and not having to pay because it’s already paid for.
It’s talking to your doctor and explaining things to them and having a meaningful conversation about your medical problem.
It’s getting all the health care you need anywhere you go for as long as you live without ever worrying about cost.
It’s not being told you will lose your job if you are sick and don’t come in.
It’s never getting a bill from anyone for your health care.

[casey35]

For those who does not have insurance i think there should be insurance based on your income and with a rider that allows your preexisting conditions. Hospital do not turn people away that are injured even if they dont have health care. In my opinion the government needs to set down with insurance company and put a restrictions on them. Make them keep prices down for the people to afford them. For those who have posted dont assume you know people or what they have gone thru . If they are not in line for the health bill. This is america last I looked and I believe we all are allowed our opinions.

[key]

Originally Posted by Jess

I have a question regarding the buy a policy or pay a penalty thing. I'm serious, because I haven't seen or read it anywhere.


Healthcare means so much more than any of our politicians think or espouse. It’s being able to see your doctor when you are sick as often as is necessary and not having to pay because it’s already paid for.
It’s talking to your doctor and explaining things to them and having a meaningful conversation about your medical problem.
It’s getting all the health care you need anywhere you go for as long as you live without ever worrying about cost.
It’s not being told you will lose your job if you are sick and don’t come in.
It’s never getting a bill from anyone for your health care.

We are the only developed country on the planet who will send a GDamn bill to someone from outside the country who needs doctor care while visiting us. How inhospitable can we be? No one better claim that we are a "Christian Country" who demands that we treat our guests (heck our own fellow citizens) with such contempt.

As for your first question, my guess is yes, those who choose the fine will carry on as is (I believe) and if they end up in the ER? ??? The fine does not get collected until you fill your tax return, so maybe if you don't file, you can avoid it....til...

It's an F-ed way to go, but it's is a small step in the right direction, and given our political climate, it is no small feat that Obama accomplished even this much.

[key]

Originally Posted by casey35

For those who does not have insurance i think there should be insurance based on your income .

Casey, do you know that this is exactly what the Health Care Reform bill is?

Premiums are based on income, with subsidies for those who can't afford them.

What is wrong with that?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by casey35

I may not have the right for this opinion but this is mine. I personally dont think that we the tax payers should have to pay for others insurance. If you dont have insurance which i dont then it should be your responsablity to get some.

wowzers.

what about parks, schools, libraries, DO YOU USE ANY OF THOSE?

[casey35]

Originally Posted by key

We are the only developed country on the planet who will send a GDamn bill to someone from outside the country who needs doctor care while visiting us. How inhospitable can we be? No one better claim that we are a "Christian Country" who demands that we treat our guests (heck our own fellow citizens) with such contempt.

As for your first question, my guess is yes, those who choose the fine will carry on as is (I believe) and if they end up in the ER? ??? The fine does not get collected until you fill your tax return, so maybe if you don't file, you can avoid it....til...

It's an F-ed way to go, but it's is a small step in the right direction, and given our political climate, it is no small feat that Obama accomplished even this much.

yep it sounds like a hell away to go . I would just perfer to be toss in jail then i would not have to worry about it or maybe we all need to go on medicaid and let someone else take care of us.

[key]

Originally Posted by casey35

yep it sounds like a hell away to go . I would just perfer to be toss in jail then i would not have to worry about it or maybe we all need to go on medicaid and let someone else take care of us.

I have no doubt that you work hard for whatever you have in your life. I just wonder why you are so convinced that most other people (even poor people) work as hard as you do? And that even with working so hard are still not able to provide something as basic as health care for themselves or their families?

I am not saying there are no freeloaders in our country, in every country. But why would you make everyone else, everyone who works as hard as you do, suffer without basic care because of them?

BTW, if you make less than 250K you got a tax cut this year, did you know that?

Honestly, it sounds like you are bitter about how hard you have to work and still not be able to afford your basic needs - like decent on demand health care. It seems to me that you are taking your frustration out on your fellow citizens instead of the broken system that values astronomical profits for a few over basic care for everyone.

Which is more important to you? That a few among us are able to get filthy rich, or that everyone get basic care and not have to go bankrupt to cover medical bills? Keeping the system that way it is (for profit) enshrines mega-profit for some over care for all.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

I have a question regarding the buy a policy or pay a penalty thing. I'm serious, because I haven't seen or read it anywhere.

If you can't afford the insurance and instead opt for paying a penalty.. what do you do for healthcare? Continue on as folks have done going to an ER for a cough due to cold? Wait for an astronomical bill to come that you can't pay and let it get taken from your state taxes?

Jess,

I suspect you havent seen the particulars because they have yet to be worked out. As with most big legislation....the idea is in the bill, the particulars are a whole different ball game.

Here in Mass with our mandatory health insurance, you are penalized, this year, at approx $1,100 if you are not in one the exclusion categories. If you are without insurance and seek medical care, you are billed for the cost of the care provided.

Each year the penalty increases.

Here, I have found, the subsidized insurance is a heck of a lot cheaper than private insurance even tho the coverage is a little less and there are co-pays for everything including hospitalization.

If memory serves, Canadian health care is not totally free i.e there are some minimal copays.

I would love to see a socialized system of health care in this country. Aside from getting care when it is needed, there would be greater flexibility in employment. How many of us have turned down jobs we want because the health care benefits were subpar?

But the socialized plans are not without pitfalls that are incongruent to the American lifestyle. In socialized medicine, you get good and timely primary care but there are waiting lists for specialists and surgery. Americans wait???
And there are some exclusions i.e. if over a certain age, they will not do certain types of care like dialysis. These vary from country to country.

Maybe this will be a stepping stone to something new and different and more cost efficient.