Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[BullDog]

Thanks to Martina, Julie, Dapper, Heart and others for pointing out that lesbian is as much a cultural, social, spiritual and political orientation and identity as it is sexual orientation.

Lesbian is my sexual orientation. I am also a stone butch and there is zero conflict for me in being a stone butch and lesbian. Lesbian is also very much a part of the social and cultural world that I came of age in. I knew I liked girls from the age of five if not younger. Growing up I heard the terms gay and lesbian. I did not know about queer or terms like female identified butch until I came online- neither one of those terms have much personal meaning to me. They are not a part of my history or culture. However for others those terms do resonate with them on a personal level.

I moved to Santa Cruz, California when I was in my early twenties- which is like Lesbianville, USA (one of them) and was totally immersed in lesbian culture and feminism. Lesbian is very much about my personal history, culture and politics as much as who I am attracted to. Not everyone has that same history or connection that I do. Others have a different connection with the word lesbian. Some may have a more narrower interpretation of what lesbian means than I do. That's ok as long as you don't impose your own personal meaning onto others.

I speak out often about what I see as lesbian bashing, the perpetuation of lesbian stereotypes, and narrow definitions of what lesbian is or can be in butch femme circles. It makes it tough to speak out when some BF lesbians seem to be imposing these same narrow definitions back onto people.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors)....

2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia....

Martina, I'm not sure why you wrote this particular thing. It's an accusation that you don't explain or support. I understand that you take issue with someone, anyone, defining what it means to be a lesbian, but why did you write that doing so "probably (has) some(thing to do with) transphobia"?

I have no trouble defining what being a lesbian means to me. It means that I'm a woman who has sex with and partners with other women. As it happens, butch women. Very butch women. It has nothing to do with whether or not I'm stone. (yep, I am.) It has nothing to do with whether or not I'm currently having sex. (not much lately, but a girl can hope.)

If I say that for me to call myself a lesbian I would have to by and large continue to fit the above criteria, why is that transphobic?

[christie]

I have been following the conversation and can genuinely understand Kobi's frustration and disappointment in that the thread simply about being proud to be a lesbian as turned into another dismantling, redefining of a word.

Some may not agree, but I do see how "lesbian" has been marginalized in online BF communities. That I ID as femme yet openly admit attraction to other femmes has been met with less than open arms, mostly by masculine ID'd or transmen. That's not me being transphobic or a misandrist, but it is my personal experience.

I do think that defining lesbian does include who you fuck. I made some choices in my 20's to try and walk that hetero path. It was a choice. It didn't change that I was a lesbian; however, to me, I didn't get to claim being a lesbian because I had the legal rights and privileges associated with being a heterosexual. I didn't claim it because I wasn't getting the shit beat out of me for fucking women. I didn't claim it because I didn't get disowned/kicked out for fucking women. I didn't get to claim it because I wasn't living as one.

The unfortunate part of re-defining lesbian (to me) is that there are legalities attached to it - if I had the same rights as a heterosexual woman, it probably wouldn't matter so much that the persons claiming the ID might not actively fuck women. I think that as I came to live an authentic, true to myself life, I have become more protective of that descriptor. I have fought to claim it, both personally, socially and professionally.

I will say that I have never experienced so much interpretation, defining, re-interpretation, re-defining, dismantling, rebuilding, casting aside and reclaiming of descriptors as I have in the online BF communities. I don't see it in other queer online communities and I don't see it in my real life communities.

Jess and I attended a Melissa Etheridge concert last week. Holy cow - ten thousand or so folks, mostly lesbians. I saw a great many interactions, but not once did I hear a conversation about descriptors. (Some may not like my use of "descriptors" but that's the place in my life that IDing words fall) One might argue that it wasn't the venue for such conversations to take place, but in all of my real-time interactions with a great number of queers, OC (online communities) are the ONLY place it takes happens. The only time I have been involved with these types of conversations in real time is when I am in a group of folks who also participate in OC. Period. Many years of meaningful, raw conversations and not once can I recall if it mattered if one was female ID'd, masculine ID'd, femme, butch, etc. Femme and butch might have come into play if it was a conversation about what/who flips my switches, but none of what I call the overanalyzation of words.

I really do give less than a damn about how folks ID. The only IDs that matter to me are mine and Jess' - and the only time hers matters is when its being cast aside, erased or questioned.

I completely understand how it feels to be erased or feel made less than - lesbian HAS been dismissed in BF online communities and its because we lesbians allowed it to happen. Shame on me for not speaking louder. Shame on me for conceding space. Shame on me for being complacent.

Sometimes, I think I am just too comfortable in my skin.

This is just my take on it - your mileage may vary.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks to Martina, Julie, Dapper, Heart and others for pointing out that lesbian is as much a cultural, social, spiritual and political orientation and identity as it is sexual orientation.

Thanks for reiterating this--My politics have always been lesbian.

I have to say, I want space here and I want space elsewhere and it would be hard to choose where to align myself if I had to make that choice.

(Not to BullDog, specifically) Also, what's with the qualifiers--Why explain that you don't touch vagina but you're still a lesbian? That for me, feels like qualifying your space in *here* and that for me, feels like discomfort.

*I am speaking to the Stonefemmes because if feels like for me, that "stone" is frequently used in threads about ..well, anything and in here, in particularly it seems if not dismantling, at least divisive.

[BullDog]

I think the reason I bring up stone butch and lesbian together is because lesbian sex/sexuality gets very stereotyped in BF land. I always hear Stones saying the reason they are stone is because they aren't lesbian. Kinda bugs me.

Re-reading my post it probably wasn't all that relevant to what I was saying, other than Stone is central to my sexual orientation as is being a lesbian. Also, being a lesbian is more than my sexual orientation.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

If I say that for me to call myself a lesbian I would have to by and large continue to fit the above criteria, why is that transphobic?

i think that going out of one's way to defend or reclaim and ID that is changing usually has a reason. One is being defensive or wanting to take something back from a group or groups who one may feel has appropriated your ID. That generally means exclusion.

Here's a quote from a post made later in the thread by the OP:

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

So who is making this person feel invisible? Who is NOT like her? i am guessing maybe transfolk or people involved with them. Or perhaps male-ID'd or bisexuals -- not sure. But there is some group the poster is talking about.

[Kobi]

Having caught up on the recent posts, there are a few things I want to address.

Bulldog, you asked why I was so disappointed and suggested you didnt understand the intent of this thread.

Lets review. This is what Kobi said way back when:
-----
"When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?"
--------
So, this was supposed to be a thread by and for female, lesbian, feminists, like me, who identify as that "outdated" concept of a female homosexual who are feeling invisible in their own community.

Is there some part of this that is or was unclear? If you dont identify as this, why is this discussion any of your concern?

I even said, several times, that I did not want this to deteriorate into a discussion on terminology and linguistics. Yet that is exactly what happened.

Several of you have taken issue with what you perceive as a narrow definition of what a lesbian is because you favor a broader more inclusive one. I am sure that a broader view suits your purposes and realities just as my narrower view suits my purposes, my reality, and the purpose of this thread.

I promise not to impose my reality on you and would appreciate if you would stop inflicting yours on me. We are both entitled to our own and neither should be negating the other.

Someone mentioned transphobia in here and I saw red. This discussion is about female, lesbian, feminists for female, lesbian, feminists. It has nothing to do with transpeople. The transpeople here have been nothing but supportive, kind, understanding, and respectful to me as a female, lesbian, feminist.

I wish I could say the same for other women. The biggest weird stuff I see on this thread and even in other lesbian threads, is women taking issue with other women. Women negating other women. Women baiting other women. It is women against women. And, from where I stand, that smacks of misogyny, sexism, and big time homophobia. And that just is not acceptable.

And it is women going after other women, in effect silencing their voices. Take this thread as a prime example. The purpose was clear but folks who didnt fit the id had to come in and turn it into something else. Take the leaping thread and its discussion on BV. Women who hadnt had the need to leap in ages, suddenly develop the need to leap in and effectively stopped the discussion. And when their behavior is pointed out to them, they respond with righteous indignation. Huh?

So, the question begging to be asked, is why are women so threatened by female, lesbian, feminists having serious discussions about issues that affect women, lesbians and feminists? The only reason to consistently and systematically shutdown serious discussions like these is fear. So, what is so threatening that it provokes the need to sabotage other women?

This is the stuff behind the linguistics that really needs to be aired. Serious stuff about females, women, using their voices, being heard, being respected, being seen, being appreciated, being understood, being treated as valuable, contributing members of this community by other women.

There are many regressions occuring out there in the big world. But we cant even begin to address the regressions out there until we deal with the regressions of members of our own community directed at other members of our own community.

And it really irks me, when I see women who take up everyone elses causes, writing pages and pages of support and outrage, finding all kinds of candle vigil pictures, advocating for protests and emails and petitions. And yet when it comes to the causes of other women in this community, all we can do is infighting, rude vulgaries, and negating? That is pretty fucking sad.

And Martina, those are MY words you used. You referred to ME as "this person". Wow, gee, thanks. That makes me feel really visible and validated. And rather than ask me why I felt invisible, you went ahead in an inflammatory way and made assumptions and presumptions. Homophobia and misogyny....the gifts that just keep on giving. I wish I could say I am surprised but I am not. This kind of bullshit has become par for the course. And it is a fine example of the bullshit women do to other women.

I may have a different reality than some of the rest of you. I am very thankful for it. Nothing like being around supportive people who dont have the need or desire to tear anyone else down.

Maybe, someday, it will happen here.

[BullDog]

Well Kobi I am a lesbian, have been for over 30 years. I am a woman attracted to women, so I do fit your definition.

I often feel invisible or disrespected in BF circles as well- it's due to the stereotypes and narrow conceptions of lesbian that get thrown out- no matter who is saying them.

There are quite a number of lesbians that are part of this community who do partner with male identified/male people. They are lesbians as well. They are human beings- not linguistic debate or terminology.

I am happy to discuss my points of interest in a different lesbian thread if this really is so upsetting to you.

[Turtle]

So, I've been going thru some stuff lately and a friend of mine gave me a few old school lesbian novels from the 1970s and 80s. At first, I was like "I dunno," but then I thought "Yeah, maybe I should revisit this time period, remembering the old women's bookstores that are almost all gone, Womankind Books, Naiad Press and the like when the publishing world was in such a different place and book for us, or any non-white non-hetero-normative group, were so hard to come by.

So, anyway, I'm reading the books and being thankful for those who have gone before me.



AND I feel a constant sorrow for wanting to be more active in the local community, but (I know it's my choice but) I won't step foot in our local Queer center because it used to be called The Lambda Center and now after much discussion, with all views being heard, they still chose to rename it The Gay and Lesbian Center. And I just won't participate in the erasure of folks like that.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Martina

i think that going out of one's way to defend or reclaim and ID that is changing usually has a reason. One is being defensive or wanting to take something back from a group or groups who one may feel has appropriated your ID. That generally means exclusion. ...

..So who is making this person feel invisible? Who is NOT like her? i am guessing maybe transfolk or people involved with them. Or perhaps male-ID'd or bisexuals -- not sure. But there is some group the poster is talking about.

Martina, I asked a specific question. Why did you write this?:

"2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary.... Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia...."

The discussion is about lesbians. You haven't stated a reason why you would conclude that a discussion about lesbian ID taking place amongst women who feel that their lesbian ID is embattled "Probably (has) some transphobia". You've made an unsupported assumption. Why does a discussion about a female ID have to have something to do with males? ("transfolk, male ID'd... transphobia")

Is it possible to discuss lesbian pride without discussing males or male IDs?

[citybutch]

I have little to say... and much to contribute.

http://writingforstrangers.com/writi...emme-identity/

[citybutch]

So simplistic... BUT we did not always have the "label" lesbian....in fact we have had many labels we have embraced. And not always have lesbians embraced butch/femme identity. In fact, there was a time I can remember where butches were rejected as embracing male identity and male roles...

This is merely an observation.. and not a critique of how anyone identifies here...

I find community with you all....

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/lesbian.h...ures_1920-1970

[Martina]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Martina, I asked a specific question. Why did you write this?:

"2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary.... Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia...."

The discussion is about lesbians. You haven't stated a reason why you would conclude that a discussion about lesbian ID taking place amongst women who feel that their lesbian ID is embattled "Probably (has) some transphobia". You've made an unsupported assumption. Why does a discussion about a female ID have to have something to do with males? ("transfolk, male ID'd... transphobia")

Is it possible to discuss lesbian pride without discussing males or male IDs?

That was my interpretation. i seriously don't know what else to say. i think that when one defends an ID, like being French, one is defending AGAINST something, like being an immigrant of African or Arab descent. That is what i meant. i don't know what else to say. i am sorry.

[Linus]

[Posting as a member]

Kobi, I hope if it's ok that I interject here. I don't want to take away something that is important for lesbian members and if I'm speaking out of turn, I apologize.

Originally Posted by Martina

That was my interpretation. i seriously don't know what else to say. i think that when one defends an ID, like being French, one is defending AGAINST something, like being an immigrant of African or Arab descent. That is what i meant. i don't know what else to say. i am sorry.

Martina, I'm a bit puzzled. I'm not sure where an association of claiming an identity automatically means that you're against something. I claim many identities: transguy, geek, Acadian, Canadian, immigrant, intelligent (or so I believe), middle-aged, etc.

But none of those mean that I'm against anyone who isn't in those categories. Just because someone identifies as lesbian (sexual identity) doesn't mean that they are automatically against trans-individuals (gender identity). To me, this kind of idea -- "us vs. them" -- is contrary and does nothing more but to divide the LGBT community as a whole. There are transwomen who are lesbians and transmen who are gay. By claiming those identities doesn't mean self-hatred.

Now, are there lesbians who dislike transmen and transwomen? Sure. But I do not believe that is what this discussion is about. It's about (and Kobi, please correct me if I'm wrong on this) reclaiming lesbian as a positive and proud title and not something that one should be ashamed of, least of all in one's own community.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Linus

[Posting as a member]

I'm not sure where an association of claiming an identity automatically means that you're against something.

It does not. Of course. Defending or reclaiming one might be taking a position against another. It often is the case. i have given examples.

Let's look at this quote -- from Kobi, whom i did not mean to offend by not using her name.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

Who MIGHT be making her feel like a guest in her OWN community? Perhaps someone NOT a "woman who wants to be with other women?" i am guessing. The possibilities of people who choose to ID as lesbian but are not women loving women are somewhat limited. i speculated.

There's a ton of research on identity formation, much of which talks about how it is created by defining oneself in opposition to the other, by disavowing another group. i think that's a normal way of thinking. But ID formation on a greater than individual level is sticky stuff. i used to be offended (as a woman) by definitions of femme that implied that a reconsidered and reconstructed femme femininity was somehow superior to that of straight women. Anyway, femme cultural products are full of such statements. Less so anymore.

My point is that ID formation can come out of disavowals of the other. It can disparage the other. Definitions that imply that straight women are less reflective of or transgressive in their femininity are examples.

But when you take it up a level to DEFENDING a supposedly beleaguered identity, you enter into a discourse that does more than potentially demean the other. The poor me stuff can lead to justifications for exclusion or worse. It's the rhetoric of oppression. The speakers may SOUND like victims, but they are justifying something else.

So i am not calling anyone here an oppressor. But this kind of discourse is dangerous. In any context.

[apretty]

When E and I were at a concert a few weeks ago there were about a thousand lesbians, I sat next to a couple who were nice enough--They weren't "like us" in the sense that there wasn't any B/F going on but they were sweet and in fact invited me/us to a swim party some time this month...

(*Of course I broke the ice by asking if either of them had spotted their therapists, yet and while E kept his distance as he's apt to do, I had two temporary BFFs though by first appearance I am sure they didn't know what to make of me in my glam-ass maxi dress and gold accessories.)

In the course of our short conversations between songs, my seat-neighbor made it clear that she was glad that a "mannnnn" wasn't sitting next to her and made a sound and face in disgust. I countered with my standard head-tilt and vague puzzled look followed with half-smile to acknowledge her discomfort with men but to also let her know (hopefully) that I didn't share in her thinking.

Of course this is just a single instance but it does speak to the sort of 'phobia' that we've been hinting at, I think. A maleness phobia/distrust (that possibly butches bring to the table by appearance/manner/what have you...) I mean, it's one thing for a Femme to bring her "femininity" but that's ultimately accepted because it's less threatening... Easily dismissed.

So, I guess I don't have a big, huge point except to speak to my experience in "lesbian" space as it's difficult to additionally, have my queer self understood...

And I am not blind to how the lesbian identity has been disparaged over the years (online and elsewhere)... Which has me thinking about women and legitimacy and this devaluing of "lesbian" is more of the same devaluing of another being deemed "female". Which really, that's the part that keeps me from abandoning "lesbian" altogether because I refuse to be a part of that women othering women.

Forgive if I make less than total sense--I should have been in bed hours ago, please feel free to request clarification. Thanks.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Kobi

And it is women going after other women, in effect silencing their voices. Take this thread as a prime example. The purpose was clear but folks who didnt fit the id had to come in and turn it into something else. Take the leaping thread and its discussion on BV. Women who hadnt had the need to leap in ages, suddenly develop the need to leap in and effectively stopped the discussion. And when their behavior is pointed out to them, they respond with righteous indignation. Huh?

Okay, so I had promised myself I would stay out of this thread...but now find that I can't.

Kobi...regarding the part that I put in red....since you're referring to me, among others.

I was not silencing anyone. I was having my own conversation in a thread that does not have a single directed OP. It's an open thread, and has a light-hearted title.

My "righteous indignation" (which it wasn't, by the way)...was at MY being silenced by another member who felt the need to come in and play thread police.

If you feel silenced by others having their own conversation or having fun, then I'm sorry.

I will also honor the fact that you clearly don't want anyone here who doesn't specifically agree with you...and leave.

And, by the way, I'm a lesbian.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Martina

It does not. Of course. Defending or reclaiming one might be taking a position against another. It often is the case. i have given examples.

Let's look at this quote -- from Kobi, whom i did not mean to offend by not using her name.



Who MIGHT be making her feel like a guest in her OWN community? Perhaps someone NOT a "woman who wants to be with other women?" i am guessing. The possibilities of people who choose to ID as lesbian but are not women loving women are somewhat limited. i speculated.

There's a ton of research on identity formation, much of which talks about how it is created by defining oneself in opposition to the other, by disavowing another group. i think that's a normal way of thinking. But ID formation on a greater than individual level is sticky stuff. i used to be offended (as a woman) by definitions of femme that implied that a reconsidered and reconstructed femme femininity was somehow superior to that of straight women. Anyway, femme cultural products are full of such statements. Less so anymore.

My point is that ID formation can come out of disavowals of the other. It can disparage the other. Definitions that imply that straight women are less reflective of or transgressive in their femininity are examples.

But when you take it up a level to DEFENDING a supposedly beleaguered identity, you enter into a discourse that does more than potentially demean the other. The poor me stuff can lead to justifications for exclusion or worse. It's the rhetoric of oppression. The speakers may SOUND like victims, but they are justifying something else.

So i am not calling anyone here an oppressor. But this kind of discourse is dangerous. In any context.

I can't speak for Kobi, but I can say unequivocally that when I use the word 'lesbian' to identify myself I have been met with some hostility from people who, in another time and place, would have certainly been called lesbians, and probably would have called themselves lesbians. In some circles, including b-f communities, calling oneself a lesbian is considered uncool, a relic from former times, and a word associated with people who would choose to oppress those who don't fit into a narrow definition of what it means to be a woman who has sex with and partners with other women. There have been lesbians who claim I can't be one because I'm a stonefemme, because I'm a leatherwoman, and because I partner with butch women. I very powerfully, emphatically, and crankily claim the label LESBIAN because I am one. F.U. to anyone who attempts to tell me otherwise.

There have been plenty of straight POCs who attempt to police the behaviours of LGBT POCs. Some have claimed that gayness is a white disease. Does that make LGBT POCs disavow their connection to their communities? Not usually, and yet that's a common response amongst those who might once have called themselves lesbians. Because some lesbians have attempted to police their (b-f, trans, leather), IDs, they eschew the use of the label. Some of the not-very-bright people who have challenged my lesbian ID have done so because they assume it must mean I'm a transphobe.

The reason I'm hammering this point with you Martina, is that there is not one place in my general definition or in my self ID that has anything to do with males or transphobia. You brought that accusation into the thread spuriously, and you have yet to support the accusation with any quote. You merely assert that feeling defended around the use of this, in my opinion, embattled ID, must have something to do with transphobia. This is inflammatory because in my experience, unsupported accusations of transphobia are sometimes used to shut down conversations about lesbian ID.

I'm a prickly, argumentative person when I get riled up. Attempts to shut me down don't work very well, but others who are not as verbally aggressive as I am will walk away from those conversations where their lesbian ID has been mocked or denigrated feeling disempowered and invalidated. This is the reason why 'Lesbian Pride' is a topic of importance to me. Unless one is foolish enough to personally challenge my ID, there's nothing "dangerous" about this discourse.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Linus

[Posting as a member]

Kobi, I hope if it's ok that I interject here. I don't want to take away something that is important for lesbian members and if I'm speaking out of turn, I apologize.



Martina, I'm a bit puzzled. I'm not sure where an association of claiming an identity automatically means that you're against something. I claim many identities: transguy, geek, Acadian, Canadian, immigrant, intelligent (or so I believe), middle-aged, etc.

But none of those mean that I'm against anyone who isn't in those categories. Just because someone identifies as lesbian (sexual identity) doesn't mean that they are automatically against trans-individuals (gender identity). To me, this kind of idea -- "us vs. them" -- is contrary and does nothing more but to divide the LGBT community as a whole. There are transwomen who are lesbians and transmen who are gay. By claiming those identities doesn't mean self-hatred.

Now, are there lesbians who dislike transmen and transwomen? Sure. But I do not believe that is what this discussion is about. It's about (and Kobi, please correct me if I'm wrong on this) reclaiming lesbian as a positive and proud title and not something that one should be ashamed of, least of all in one's own community.

Linus,

Again thank you for being supportive. Ironic how transmen "get it". No drama, no rudeness. They seem to just get it.

I do, however, take exception to "lesbian" being downgraded to a "sexual identity".

For some of us, it is not a just sexual identity. It is something special, unique, and very specific that defines who we are at the core of our beings and, in many cases, what we stand for. It is way bigger than a sexual identity.

And reclaiming lesbian, minus all the qualifiers and the politics that spur them, is about pride and self respect. It is about taking back something that is being dismantled and parcelled out amongst other groups for their own purposes who seem to have little regard for those they are affecting.

Lesbian is not less than, a lesser part of, outdated, not enough or any of the other dismissal and derogatory things that are happening around it.

And, it is about opening your mouth when you see it happening, calling it what it is, and making it clear it is not appreciated or acceptable. What is happening is hurtful, divisive, dismissive, oppressive, offensive, and simply rude.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm a lesbian, I'm proud to be a lesbian, and I'm a little tired of the last few threads I've checked out being turned into a discussion of what "lesbian" means, followed by lots of people trying to reinvent the wheel by asking "well what about this situation? Do they count?". What the heck? Why is that necessary? I want to come here and support others and feel supported, not questioned.


Is it very difficult to accept that the identifier of "lesbian" can apply to many different people with different interpretations, and that we can all find community with one another, even if we don't share the same definition of the word?


I'm so frustrated with the threads right now and I personally feel like we can't get more than two or three people together without it somehow turning into a need to have a debate or prove a point. I really want BFP to be a place where I can find support and community, and lately I feel like all I find is another opportunity to get really defensive. Maybe I'm just having a bad day, but maybe it's more than that.

I interpreted this thread as Kobi's attempt to say "hey, I'm here. Anybody else?" without the drive to have a big analytical debate. I"m seeing a lot of posturing and defensiveness and that makes me really sad. Why is this happening?


Again, let me reiterate that this is my personal opinion, you can agree or disagree with me as you see fit, and I respect your right to do so.