Female Bodies Across Gender Identities

[BullDog]

I got the inspiration for this thread from the new Blood threads. First there was Butch Blood. Then there was Femme Blood. Since most of the members here are either currently female bodied or were in the past, I thought what the heck why not BF Blood? Then I thought, well maybe something broader would be better.

No offense to the other threads at all, but I do sometimes wonder why we hardly ever talk about our common experiences of being female and/or female bodied despite our differences in gender identity. Or have conversations about our experiences across gender identities. Thoughts?

Anyway I just thought it would be interesting to see if we could have a conversation across genders about our various experiences of being female bodied.

[Cyclopea]

Are you objectifying my body?!?

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Are you objectifying my body?!?

Yes.

Got a problem with that?

[Pixie]

What a lovely idea. I think anyway.

I know I am currently reveling on the fact that clothing...whether you are buying guys or girls they assume the bigger you are the taller you are....hmmmm

Hope that doesn't derail...just wanted to contribute and that was what was on my mind!!!

Pixie

[PapaC]

Care to take a lead in the discussion? ie: topic that comes to mind (besides blood)? I've been curious to know (for quite some time actually) how trans* navigate around medical procedures, access to medical advice/expertise and how it may or may not compared to access as female bodied/women identified, generally speaking. (and that might be something I'll address in another thread)

I'll tell my thought process on this...

I'm female bodied but altered with 'more than average' 'secondary sex characteristics' where most would read as 'male'.

I'm listed as M (I believe) on almost all medical 'dialogue' if you will, in the province of British Columbia. Consequently, if I'm going to a lab for example to do blood work, no one there knows that I'm female bodied. In fact, I happily got undressed to my underwear to get x-rays done on my knees this week. (I don't pack).

Unless someone else is present on any sort of internal procedures and tests, only my physician(s) is aware that I'm female bodied (endocrinologists don't count as they fully know given my Testosterone therapy). There may/may not have been some confusion when I was patiently waiting for my appointment with my ob/gyn surgeon in the waiting room, and "Christopher" was called as the Dr.'s next patient. lol (imagine the possible looks as I followed the receptionist sporting a goatee. ;-) -FUN!)

I'm very very fortunate in my experiences in this province thus far. I'm very thankful that I personally have it framed in my head that I'm a human being FIRST seeking medical treatment (and that has made all the difference). My only real worry might be: when will/or if it does 'matter' that I reveal my at-birth gender 'assignment'..

or ya know what? why mince words really? I.am.female.bodied. period. What letter might be on a form or not isn't an issue. My current (and for some time will be) body configuration doesn't 'allow' for me to be 100% stealth. I'm at peace with that.

I think because I'm so heavily involved in my quest for health and medical access -- as I avoided doctors and examines for close to a decade (for example, didn't have paps for 10 years or more), that I'm very specific about what I call my genitals (munt, and magina words notwithstanding).

Not sure this is on topic per se, but I'm at least sharing some information of what its like for me specifically.

Carry on.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by BullDog

....I do sometimes wonder why we hardly ever talk about our common experiences of being female and/or female bodied despite our differences in gender identity. Or have conversations about our experiences across gender identities. Thoughts?

I'm too tired to be really coherent in any kind of deep discussion tonight, but I think this is a very valuable discussion that could benefit us all.

We do all start from the same general kind of place. We do have worlds of experiences in common.

I'm looking forward to the conversation.

[BullDog]

Thank you for all the responses so far.

Chris, I was wondering if I had left things too general- not leading with a specific topic- but I am hoping it will be a free flowing conversation and see where it goes.

Your post is definitely right on target!

I would love to hear from all gender identities who would like to discuss being female bodied from their personal experience and have a cross gender discussion about that so we can all learn from each other. Of course I am open to wherever the discussion takes us.

[I'mOneToo]

This is an interesting topic, but it seems like it might fall to the bottom of the fish bowl.

BullDog, I would look forward to reading your personal insights, too. I think PapaC has brought forth one aspect of this subject of "experiences across gender identities". PixieStars raised the issue of clothing. Not sure if that's the target you're shooting for but I can share a couple of experiences.

My outward experience is probably perceived as male. In body type, clothing, hair style, manner of speaking, etc. Yet, I am fully aware and comfortable with the female body that I inhabit. I go for regular checkups at the gynecologist, bi-annual mammograms, and it never strikes me that maybe others in the waiting room think I 'don't belong' somehow. Because I see myself as human first? I don't know.

One time, I went to buy some jeans at a department store. Men's jeans are displayed in the men's department. Usually I buy the same size, but holding up two pair of the same size marked, one looked smaller than the other. So I thought I'd better try them on, to get the pair that fit the best. Went to the sales clerk and asked if there was a fitting room nearby. She looked at the direction of the nearest one, which was in fact in the men's department. She immediately frowned and said "You cannot use the men's fitting room." I said, "I didn't ask that, I asked where the nearest fitting room was." She said, "You'll have to go to the women's department, which is across the store." Then I said, "Are there any men currently in the other fitting room, which is closer, who would be disturbed if I tried these on in there?" She said "It's store policy. Only men are allowed in the men's fitting room."

I thought about it for a second. Then I put both pairs of pants on the counter in front of her, turned around, and walked out. I have a policy too. And that is, I don't spend money at department stores that discriminate against people. If there had been even one customer inside the "men's" fitting room, I could see upholding policy. But with no other customers, and a potential sale standing in front of her, and the only thing wanted to try on was two pair of pants... well. Policy is policy, after all. But what I thought she was really doing, was policing my gender expression.

There are many other examples of experience across gender identity, but that's all I can think of for now.

[julieisafemme]

What an excellent thread!

[BullDog]

I'mOneToo, thank you so much for helping to revive the thread. I have definitely dropped the ball here. I will gather some thoughts together to share some of my experiences. Maybe the server move will give me some extra time to finish my assignment.

I don't really have any specific topics in mind to discuss here. Perhaps I am being too vague and that's not helping the thread along. It just struck me the other day that when we talk about our experiences as being female bodied we tend to keep them "in house" so to speak. Butches talk in butch threads, femmes talk in femmes threads, trans people talk in trans threads. I just thought it would be great for people of all different gender identities to come together to have a cross gender discussion about our experiences all in one thread and one discussion.

As to clothes shopping, that's a royal pain for me. First of all, I don't like to shop and hate trying clothes on. I do shop in the mens department but it's hard for me to find clothes to fit. Shoes are even worse. I have small feet so I have to shop in the kids department. Personally I wouldn't mind buying womens shoes but to me they all seem too girly for me. I usually buy boys shoes.

When trying clothes on I will sometimes use the mens department or sometimes carry clothes over to the womens department depending how I feel at the time. I do try to shop in off hours because I hate crowds. I haven't ever been told I couldn't use a mens dressing room. Awhile back, after I finished paying for some clothing I did hear a sales clerk (young woman) talking to another sales clerk saying why do I always get stuck having to help all the freaks.

I shall return with more thoughts soon. I hope more people of all gender identities will share their thoughts. Thank you for everyone who has posted so far. I am reading everything with great interest.

[Galahad]

Just to bump this up. I like the topic and what everyone is saying I shop at Goodwill for clothes usually. Designer dress shirts are my downfall. No matter what, the cashier always keys in Women's blouses. They see me every week going through the men's shirts, but from the managers on down they key in women's clothing. I probably should correct them but don't. I rarely return anything.

[Dragonfly]

I have a very heated argument going on about this inside my head. On one hand, I dont want non gendered bathrooms or dressing rooms. I have had bad experiences with bio males that I would be uncomfortable with that as I am vulnerable and such in those two places. I dont want peeped on or assaulted. No one does do they, that is why they separate for hetero cultures and bi gender cultures. Its a privacy that is based on the assumption that 1. all bio genders are hetero and attracted to the oppposite gender and 2. there are no homosexual of the same gender in the room with you.

Well most of us here know someone who is uncomfortable using the "right" one because we are not 1. bi gendered human race 2. All hetero. I think that is is almost a lost cause because to make it more accessable may make it possible for someone to be harmed by someone abusing the open door gender policy. It would make something positive for us be viewed as negative for everyone else.

Transgendered sexuality is also as random as anyone elses, so would we all need a sexuality card to prove which room we belong in with those we aren't perving on? And what about Bisexuals, no matter which of the gender ID's they use.... are they possibly perving on everyone?

So for now... Gay men can perv on each other. Gay women can perv on each other. So then why is it a problem for a gay man to be in with the ladies in the bathroom? What if the guy is just a creep pretending to be gay is the answer I got when I asked around... I am just sooo torn and think someday there will have to be a 3rd restroom/dressing room... and it will maybe be a single occupant use room so that everyone is equally being served AND no one can abuse the non gendered room.

Wow that really sounds like "separate but equal" dont it? I really dont know what I will think in the end... but at least I am thinking about the problem and trying to eventually have an opinion towards improvement.

[Daywalker]

**Subscribing**

[Bit]

Originally Posted by I'mOneToo

This is an interesting topic, but it seems like it might fall to the bottom of the fish bowl.

Thanks for stirring it back to the surface!

I strongly suspect that the woman who was policing your gender in the store lied to you. My guess is that there is no such policy about the dressing rooms. I myself have used men's dressing rooms when the women's was clear across the store--and in this economy, I bet the manager would have preferred you bought a pair of pants no matter which room you used.

I think that, like BullDog, your anonymity worked against you. I'm willing to bet that had either sales clerk/cashier known either of you as a person, they would never have been able to dismiss you so cavalierly. I've noticed that sales clerks and cashiers in department stores quite often seem to see me as merely one of a set of interchangeable objects, "customer," rather than as an individual.

Originally Posted by Amelia

Gay women can perv on each other.

Eeeew. That's just distasteful to me... I don't wish to be ogled in a dressing room by ANYONE, nor do I wish to ogle anyone. It's all about trying the clothes on as fast as possible and getting the heck back out.

I understand that you're working your way logically through the whole thing and I see that you're making progress--it's just that the sentence I quoted really pushed a button with me. Ew.

I don't know how to provide safety in dressing rooms and I guess, when I think about it, I don't expect safety in dressing rooms.

Maybe that's one reason I hate trying clothes on; I just don't expect it to be safe? *shrugs*

[Medusa]

Bit,

Your post was reported. The part where you quoted Amelia talking about "Gay women perving on each other" and then your subsequent response of "Eeeeew, that's distasteful" can feel hurtful to people who identify as Gay Women if you dont specify that you are feeling "Eeeeww" about being perved in the bathroom or if you are "Eeeewing" Gay women perving on each other.

The way it is written feels targeted to Gay Women specifically because the whole paragraph isnt quoted, just the part about Gay Women.

We want to maintain a welcoming space for folks who identify as Gay Women, Trans women, Lesbians, Butches, Femmes, and Dykes. I know you stand behind that so let's all please try to aware of the space when responding.

Thanks so much,
a

[Jess]

Great thread! I know that personally I do relate to a lot of issues "femmes" face because I am afterall, a woman. I however, feel uncomfortable intruding on femme space, as I am fully aware that they are usually coming from a slightly different space with the same issues ( or seeking a specific type of support/ understanding) and it just feels odd for me to say "well, yanno.. me too".

I totally get the whole "shopping/ trying on clothes/ public restroom " issues. My partner is usually more aware than I am of the ogles, or comments if she is nearby, because I have for the most part taught myself to ignore folks. When it is glaringly obvious, I become incredibly uncomfortable, as if I am in the wrong place. The double takes at me then at the name of the door.. and the worse by far is a mom who ushers her child away. That one really stings.

I'm sure there are a great many issues that cross the gender preference line and I will visit this thread often. Thanks again for opening the door!

[Dragonfly]

I am sorry that my thoughts were taken that way. I am sorry you were bothered by the way I worded my thoughts. I was not saying gay women or men DO perv on each other but was thinking so logically that I did not realize it may cause uncomfort to anyone. I was actually thinking about my own feelings in said "female" bathrooms and dressing rooms. I am so sorry to be in there that I think it shows to the others in there. I look down a lot in the bathrooms or away from people coming in and out.

Dressing rooms are harder because the curtain ones. I prefer doors. I AM looked at like I AM perving by the other ladies going in and out, but really only when I am dressed in obviously male marketed clothing and trying on more obviously male marketed items. I AM NOT perving of course. And I really dont like the thought of anyone of any gender or sexuality imposing their eyes were they are not invited to look.

I was exploring the separation of genders and the why's that various genders and sexualities may WANT separate privacy places. If I am uncomfortable being in there, I imagine the other people may be as- or more- uncomfortable having me in there. I only meant that society is "putting up with" same sexualities being in places together but not wanting to mix genders.

Oh and I have never had a prob using the men's dressing rooms by the sales clerks or the men using them. I personally dont feel comfy dressing in some of them, (esp ones unsupervised and off in the corner of a large store) but it is easier on everyone's comfort if I do. I'd rather be the one uncomfortable than make the little old ladies feel uncomfortable when they can't tell if I am a man or woman in there.

Ooo I also love the Salvation Army and Thrift Stores dressing rooms because they are single rooms and non gendered. Some of our gay clubs nearby have a third restroom or non gendered restrooms. I love that and never feel uncomfy or like I am seen as some perv in my own community. I assume they "get it" and dont think twice about it.

It seems like it is individuals on a power trip that are using it as an excuse to discriminate and hurt rather than serve said customer.

And yes those two places are sometimes abused by the criminal behavior of a sexual intrusive nature, and I always cover the floor drains with my foot before going pee. lol. I saw that hidden camera crap on the news.

[Jess]

Seems a shame to have to think so much just to take a piss. I would prefer to have non gender specific full closure "stalls" in public facilities. Perhaps men and women ( and all variations ) would be forced to be a tad more courteous.. ie: not pissing on seats.. not hogging sink to do make up... I see using the restroom in public as a necessity, not some field trip or a place to "pick up" folks. I leave that for erotica fantasy. LOL!
As for changing rooms, I actually very rarely try something on. Either it fits ( great!) or it doesn't and I take it back.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Bit,

Your post was reported. The part where you quoted Amelia talking about "Gay women perving on each other" and then your subsequent response of "Eeeeew, that's distasteful" can feel hurtful to people who identify as Gay Women if you dont specify that you are feeling "Eeeeww" about being perved in the bathroom or if you are "Eeeewing" Gay women perving on each other.

*absolutely flabbergasted*

I specified IMMEDIATELY in my post that I was talking about being "perved on"--I used the word "ogled" because to me that means the same thing, eyes but no physical assault--in a dressing room.

Originally Posted by Cath

Eeeew. That's just distasteful to me... I don't wish to be ogled in a dressing room by ANYONE, nor do I wish to ogle anyone.

Gay Women of any stripe are certainly free to perv on anyone they please at any time they please, but Amelia had been talking about being assaulted by men in a dressing room, and how important it was to her that her privacy not be invaded---and so I thought about dressing rooms, and all the children, teens, straight women in them when I have used them, in the context of being assaulted and having one's privacy invaded.

I'm sorry it wasn't more clear in my post that I was talking about having my privacy invaded--being "perved on" in a dressing room--but yanno, since the specification "in a dressing room" was part of the same sentence, I dunno how to make it any more clear.

My apologies to anyone who was offended.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Amelia

I am sorry that my thoughts were taken that way. I am sorry you were bothered by the way I worded my thoughts. I was not saying gay women or men DO perv on each other but was thinking so logically that I did not realize it may cause uncomfort to anyone. I was actually thinking about my own feelings in said "female" bathrooms and dressing rooms. I am so sorry to be in there that I think it shows to the others in there. I look down a lot in the bathrooms or away from people coming in and out.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Amelia}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You don't owe me any apologies, sweetheart. It was very obvious that you were following a logical line of thought, and you were correct; society is very quick to keep men and women separated in dressing rooms as if we are all heterosexual.

Just because you said something that I responded to with discomfort doesn't mean that you did anything wrong---nor does it mean that I thought YOU believed it was okay. I completely understood that you were being logical, and analyzing the situation, and that it bothered you too.

I hope you understand that. You did not attack or hurt me in any way--you just happened to say something that pushed a big button for me. I'm sorry if my response made you feel bad in any way; I didn't intend it to.