Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

I don't believe I've ever seen FIB's say that male ID receive male privilege, or the posts you've spoken of either. More so I've seen many conversations involving all ID's, femme, butches, etc speaking on if transmen receive it.

If there's that "common belief", I guess no one told me, can't help you. I could speculate, but it's be just that speculation, cause I don't believe they do myself. Besides I think there's enough speculation around here enough as it.

Metro

[TenderKnight]

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

That's cool. I wasn't sure. I just saw a lot of people referencing the 'gender wars', and I thought instead of just referencing, maybe someone wanted to actually talk about it. But I'm cool not talking about it too, cuz I'm sick of that conversation too.

So maybe we could all stop side skirting it, and just drop it? Cuz I'm kind of at the shit or get off the pot (openly discuss it or shut up about) point.

So six o' one/ half dozen o' the other...I'm e-z goin'

Thanks for your decent post, and thanks for your posts atlast and met


So...This Is One Of Those Bonding Threads?,
Dylan

[TenderKnight]

maybe we could bond about how sick we are of the gender wars conversation/debate..

Again, not that it isn't important, but I for one feel pretty defeated by it already.. *pulls out his white hanky*

I say Sir/Madam/Human Being.. I do surrender, I do have a gender and it isn't like everyone else's.. You win.

-Tony, who hopes that his humer shows through in this attempt to be cleaver..

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

maybe we could bond about how sick we are of the gender wars conversation/debate..

Again, not that it isn't important, but I for one feel pretty defeated by it already.. *pulls out his white hanky*

I say Sir/Madam/Human Being.. I do surrender, I do have a gender and it isn't like everyone else's.. You win.

-Tony, who hopes that his humer shows through in this attempt to be cleaver..

I agree....I was totally into when we were talking about values and what not.

[sharkchomp]

What I see is 'us' vs 'them'. I have seen what Dylan spoke of. The fact that it is dismissed or overlooked or just not seen is denial. We can deny that, we can deny the ID war altogether if we so choose. We can deny that assumptions are made by both 'camps'. Denial doesn't lead to growth or forgiveness or healing. Bridges can only be built when the majority is wanting and willing to do the work on the foundation of the bridge. And the foundation is the nitty gritty work.

I think lines have been drawn in the sand and people have become deeply entrenched. The fact that it was even discussed that male id'ed/trans people should be removed from the site says a lot and shows just how vast the divide is.

How do we heal? How do we come together as a community? With sincerity from all to move towards a common ground, calm words and open minds and hearts. It can be done but it will take work and a desire to accept each other's differences. Frank but peaceful discussions would be necessary.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[TenderKnight]

You know, I don't deny it is going on and has been going on for years, both online and off. Why else would I feel so damned heart sick over this stuff? People are getting hurt, people are defensive and offensive, there are clear sides and clear "captions" if not generals.. Hell yeah there is a gender war going on here.

The question that I'd like answered is this; what questions do we ask, not only of others but of ourselves about all this? How can we help respect bounderies so that all can live in a comfortable balance here? How can we help mediate the sides so that there are clear and set lines that we don't cross?

I don't know. I am totally open to discussing this, my heart and soul bare, if it will bring some kind of peace. Can this happen? Can we come to the table without arms or armor?

If there is a war here, this is what has to happen.

So.. How do we do this?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

What I see is 'us' vs 'them'. I have seen what Dylan spoke of. The fact that it is dismissed or overlooked or just not seen is denial. We can deny that, we can deny the ID war altogether if we so choose. We can deny that assumptions are made by both 'camps'. Denial doesn't lead to growth or forgiveness or healing. Bridges can only be built when the majority is wanting and willing to do the work on the foundation of the bridge. And the foundation is the nitty gritty work.

I think lines have been drawn in the sand and people have become deeply entrenched. The fact that it was even discussed that male id'ed/trans people should be removed from the site says a lot and shows just how vast the divide is.

How do we heal? How do we come together as a community? With sincerity from all to move towards a common ground, calm words and open minds and hearts. It can be done but it will take work and a desire to accept each other's differences. Frank but peaceful discussions would be necessary.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

I don't think anyone is dismissing or avoiding it, I just don't think this thread was starting for that particular discussion.

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I don't think anyone is dismissing or avoiding it, I just don't think this thread was starting for that particular discussion.

No problem

I'm out.....

~~~shark~~~~~~~

[Gayla]

Not that I'm attempting to rehash, but I think I must have missed the discussion about male ID'd/trans people being asked to leave the site. Can someone point me in the right direction please.

I also think there have been / are some good conversations happening in other threads and that we maybe don't have to do it again in this one. The values discussion was a good one and I am interested in the various viewpoints on that. I'm not exactly sure where I fall so I haven't posted anything yet but I'm working my way to it.

[waxnrope]

would someone please send me a PM about the "gender wars" - a paragraphical synopsis would do? I am not joking ... just kinda new to online discussions. And no, I do not see this in r/l ... I have few butch friends ... most are andro or closeted. most of my friends are femmes or straight women. I've made a few friends here, and have made plans with AtLast to have coffee or such as we live near one another. But there is so much that I do not understand ... all the assumptions of malfeasance, overt hostility, sniping, etc. and I do not comprehend this and think that a bit of history would help me.
Thanks in advance, and peace to all

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

No problem

I'm out.....

~~~shark~~~~~~~

I hope you come back. What you posted does belong, but, I can say it happens both ways and my intent here was to look at (not deny) these issues from a different way of relating to each other.

My off-line, real-time relationships with my trans friends are simply nothing like what happens here. And WE DO have these discussions all of the time. What goes on in our being able to see each other's viewpoints is that we have sound bonding as friends. Also, a history of in some cases, many years. Some have once identified as butch, others have not. There are transmasculine butches, too. Some have absolutely no interest in even being on a B-F site, others do and do have a point of personal reference with the B-F dynamic overall.

Maybe, I am just barking up the wrong tree in thinking that if we could apply some of how we interact outside of these sites, we can kick that line in the sand to the curb. If this true, I'll accept it. Can't change this by myself.

A couple of transguys have talked some about their understanding of butches and what we experience and have close butch friends. I have talked about this the other way around and even my protectiveness of trans friends sometimes. And they can be protective of me, too. Thus, my just not getting our gender/butch/trans-wars.

It is not lost on me that simply my having feminist, lesbian identifiers on my profile along with woman and butch can be the first (sometimes only) place a trans (and frankly, a MIB) member may come at me from a negative space. I can't fix this. However, my using these is not about anyone else but myself. Just as it is for trans members it is important for me to distinguish myself. And this just seems like something that is important to each individual person.

It has always stumped me why words, or sexual preferences, really, instead of content of ideas gets us in tangles. Let's take trans and butch out the equation and use stone or daddy, for example. Is that the entirety of the person? And why would someone take issue with these in the first place? They are what that person wants to have on their profile, for themselves. Yes, both have particular meanings, yet, it is just dumb to think you know everything about that person based on these terms.

There have been times I have thought, just put butch or nothing in that line. But, I'm not nothing and I am comfortable with my butch identity simply as it is. And I'm not going to change my profile just to appease others- and wouldn't want any one else to do this.

The only thing I know for myself is that it would be great if we could get this stuff put into perspectives that add to the community and understanding, not detract from it.

Actually, I feel that butch or trans is really not the problem, things get off to the races with sexual and political identification more here. Usually based upon false and preconceived notions with our reading between the lines (someone else brought this up). We all have personal biases, but certainly don't have to stay married to them.

Hell, I’ve had a PM come my way about this thread stating the person wasn’t a lesbian, so they were not going to join in. WTF? I don’t see lesbian in the title, do you? And I sure see a lot of posters that do not identify as lesbians posting here. Obviously, this person was only considering my profile as the OP and believing that that is who the thread is for. Jesus, I’ve even posted about some personal incidences with other lesbians that I found negative, especially towards a Transman friend of mine! Asshole, transphobic, anti-B-F lesbians exist. But, that isn’t going to change my sexual preference. I just have to tune-up as many as I can when they fuck with me or my trans friends. You know, educate….!!!

Like I said in the OP, as long as we remain civil, discuss whatever strikes you around all of this. I have to keep myself in check due to some of the hurtful crap that can happen and I think this fits for everyone. Sure, I've had my moments of anger, who hasn't? But, maybe we will get to a better way of communicating.

[DapperButch]

I too have been enjoying just how...pleasant it has all been. Really, really nice. And I would like it to remain the way it is.

BUT, I am a stickler for detail (lol) and with all due respect to others' opinions, I clearly remember a discussion (on this site), around Male Id'd Butches receiving male privilege. I remember it b/c it was so ludicrous. I remember one person asking, something along the lines of "And how exactly does the stranger know that the Butch identifies as male in order to give them male privilege?", or something like that.

I don't think that us not talking about the gender wars here is us being in denial. I also don't think that it is necessarily the calm before the storm. My hope is that some change has occurred in people's thinking and that there is more respect for the various masculine gender IDs and that things will be a bit different. My hope is that we will all do better in thinking before we react. My hope is that we all approach things assuming the intent is good from the poster.

P.S. I do not think that our Hug Fest will be complete unless Bull Dog joins us, though!

[Strappie]

I'm a Female ID'd Butch... I can't say I've ever heard or seen anyone saying "We are NOT anymore privileged then the next Id."

I feel everyone is equal in all aspect just that one might be strong than the next or more book smart or for that matter more street smart? Really why does every thing have to come down to "PRIVILEGES?"

[little man]

i have an ex-gf who used to tell me that i was too simplistic in my thinking. maybe she's right.

seems to me it'd be just fine if we'd just take one another for who we are and decide if we'd like to know each other any better. maybe a random pm here and there that just says, "hey, you seem like someone i'd like to know better."

some ppl i like, some ppl i don't like, and the rest i don't spend much time on either way. that's pretty much how my "real" life works.

i plan to be burdened with this "still life" i'm living for only a couple more years. once i'm debt free again, i'm hitting the road, going where the four winds blow me. when i travel, i tend to reach out to folks in whatever area i'm headed to so we can meet up and see how things go in a live situation. it's always a great treat for me, to hear the tone, inflection, nuance in a live conversation with people. i like getting that 'feel' for people by spending time with them and seeing their corner of this big ass planet.

for what it's worth...your mileage may vary.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Why can't people be people? Why can't we just all get along and celebrate who we are as we are. It is just that simple to me.

Andrew

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by little man

seems to me it'd be just fine if we'd just take one another for who we are and decide if we'd like to know each other any better. maybe a random pm here and there that just says, "hey, you seem like someone i'd like to know better."

Agreed!! Thank you. I understand labeling yourself and making sure other people understand it. If they don't take you as you are then eff em. The bird is the word! Meaning the middle finger.

[AtLast]

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

[Corkey]

Ya' know it really comes down to listening to each other. We can't change who each one is, we have to accept. That's all there is to it. There is no war, what there is, is human behavior. There will always be personalities who don't get along, that's human. There will always be those who express themselves differently than another, and that's just fine (with me). What I don't want to see is our labels getting in the way of our humanity. I can agree to disagree, and still be (your) friend. I don't take (your) label and twist it into something that has no resemblance to who you say you are, that would be asinine. This is why I always look over <----- to see how one ID's. If it isn't there then I use gender neutral pronouns until I find out.
I will not always have in common (your) life experience, it doesn't mean I don't understand it, I just haven't lived it.
I will always have (your) back, we are all humans here living a human experience, how we interact is important. Let's try to understand each other and LISTEN. K?
Each and every one of you are important to me and this community, common ground is achievable.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Ya' know it really comes down to listening to each other. We can't change who each one is, we have to accept. That's all there is to it. There is no war, what there is, is human behavior. There will always be personalities who don't get along, that's human. There will always be those who express themselves differently than another, and that's just fine (with me). What I don't want to see is our labels getting in the way of our humanity. I can agree to disagree, and still be (your) friend. I don't take (your) label and twist it into something that has no resemblance to who you say you are, that would be asinine. This is why I always look over <----- to see how one ID's. If it isn't there then I use gender neutral pronouns until I find out.
I will not always have in common (your) life experience, it doesn't mean I don't understand it, I just haven't lived it.
I will always have (your) back, we are all humans here living a human experience, how we interact is important. Let's try to understand each other and LISTEN. K?
Each and every one of you are important to me and this community, common ground is achievable.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

I think these two posts say a lot.

I have to be honest...from my ME place.

I don't see this thread accomplishing very much (no offense, Atlast). Perhaps I'm still jaded after the Borders And Bridges thread (before some of y'all's time...same premise basically..it went straight down the shitter and got really ugly, then created and even uglier spin off thread with some of the most transphobic and evil shit I've ever seen posted). Perhaps, I think it's just going to be a lot of the same old 'butch bonding' stuff that never really goes anywhere. Perhaps I think it'll just be a little smooth over kumbaya until the next eruption. And why do I think there'll be another eruption? Because of the two posts above. We don't listen, and because of that, we don't trust.

How do I know we don't listen?

Because I posted something that as a transman *happens*. The first response is a person outside the male ID telling me it doesn't happen. Met, of course you don't see it happen...you're not male ID'd. I wasn't *asking* you if it happened, I was telling you it happens. Another female ID'd butch says the same thing. Again...I wasn't asking if it happens...I'm telling you it happens. Just like y'all say male pronouns are the default. Another male ID'd butch says the same thing, and he's told (again), "Uh Uh, this doesn't happen." No offense, but um, just cuz you don't see it, it doesn't mean its not happening.
The other response was, "Yeah? It goes both ways, dude! Here's what WE deal with."

Now, I'm NOT rehashing this! I'm merely pointing oput how we DO NOT listen, and how that turns into the b.s. that takes place. This is why people don't feel heard, and this is how the distrust happens, and this is why it's always so ugly when the shit blows up.


Dylan