Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[little man]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Expectations that are put on transmen that may stem from stereotypes (i.e. transmen are more sensitive/caring/processy/in tune with women, because "they were once women")

And

The 'expectation' that transmen keep one foot in the 'formerly female' (i.e. by constantly making the distinction of TRANSman instead of just saying man)



Dylan...that's the briefest I could do

thanks, dylan. guess i'll drop my change in the bucket and see what kind of ride i get.

in my mind, expectations are desires for particular thoughts and behaviors from others. if someone 'expects' me to be more sensitive, it is not up to me to uphold that expectation...unless, of course, i happen to be a sensitive sort. if i have expectations that my dinner companion will use silverware and not blow their nose on the napkins while we're eating...that's on me. i can choose to not eat with that person again. there is not really much we can do as far as the expectations of others go....but we can choose not to interact with them. it's always ok to let people know we think their expectations are unfair or unreasonable...but we don't get to tell them not to have those expectations or desires. then again, one person's sensitivity is another person's callousness. go figure.

i don't know that i'd say transguys are stereotypically categorized as sensitive. i think it may be a hope, based on the assumption that person was raised as a female child. i think you'd agree that most parents try to reinforce sensitivity and nurturing in their female children. i think, for the most part, all our parents perceived us as girls, and we were raised accordingly. i was born in the late 50's and came of age in the 70's. i was totally raised to be a wife and mother. i have been neither. i am, however, a damn fine cook and reallllly good with laundry. hell, i even enjoy ironing. i have been acutely aware of having a female body for most of my life. it seemed outrageous to me that i should be groomed for jobs (wife and mom) for which i was ill suited. i was, however, allowed to pursue my non-feminine interests as well. as long as i met my parent's obligatory education in the ways of women, i was free to pursue my other interests. i don't see any of this as watering down my masulinity or maleness. i view it as the basis for being more expansive in my humanity...which is genderless. people can think and expect what they like...sometimes the surprise is pleasant, sometimes not so much.

as far as the trans marker goes...if you need that in your definition of me, so be it. i'm not the thought or reality police. i'm also busy just living my life the best i can. in my reality, i'll never be a man-man. i wasn't born as one, i wasn't socialized as one, i haven't the foggiest notion what it is to live my entire life as one. i do stand apart from born men. coming into my manhood in my mid-40's, i had the option to pick and choose the social cues i adhere to, the attitudes i live with and by, and the way i move through the world as a 'perceived' man. yeah, that one will rankle, i'm sure. as the other transitioning guys on here are well aware, this process is multi-layered. jeez louise, talk about your onion peeling. my emotional responses have changed, my body has changed, my thought processes have changed. hell, my taste in music has changed, too. (although my fashion choices remain every bit as questionable as before) the fact of the matter is that i'm living as the best version of a man that i can manage. all based on my values and perceptions of what that is. we all, at some point, talk about passing. think about that for a minute. yeah, it means just what it sounds like it means...being taken for something we have not been previously. so much of this is about perception...inward and outward. i now look and am treated as the way i've wanted to look and be treated. good for me. it still doesn't mean that i have always lived this way. fuck, i'm not sure i'm being clear here.

given the choice between male and female, i most closely identify with male. i was no good at being a girl and i hope i'm successful at being a man. i'm grateful for the upbringing i had and the 40-odd years of being perceived as female. yeah, that's what i said...grateful. why? because it is the foundation of who i am today. it instilled in me a self-reliance and inner strength i'm not sure i would otherwise have had. who knows for sure? yes, i'm one of those kumbaya guys who refuses to try to gloss over, bury or erase the life i had pre-transition. i think it all goes to making me a new breed of man. one who can and will lead by example and set the bar higher for other men...born or made.

with luck, this is on topic and will not disappear into cyberspace the way the last one i wrote did.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by apretty

butchfemmeplanet.com ?

And?

Originally Posted by Dylan

Mahhh Bad

I apologize for the mis-identifying

That'll teach me to assume (for now)


Dylan

Thanks for the apology.
No problem for realz....

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by little man

*snip*

as far as the trans marker goes...if you need that in your definition of me, so be it. i'm not the thought or reality police. i'm also busy just living my life the best i can. in my reality, i'll never be a man-man. i wasn't born as one, i wasn't socialized as one, i haven't the foggiest notion what it is to live my entire life as one. i do stand apart from born men.

*snip*

i'm grateful for the upbringing i had and the 40-odd years of being perceived as female. yeah, that's what i said...grateful. why? because it is the foundation of who i am today. it instilled in me a self-reliance and inner strength i'm not sure i would otherwise have had.

Yes.

And yes.

Good stuff, wil.

[imadiva]

I was sometimes confused,alittle amused and totally educated by all the posts and I want to thank you all for that. But ........... In my most humble opinion I think we all bring something to the table with however we want to identify ourselves to the world !!Being comfortable with yourself and in your beliefs brings you to where you need and want to be ..I love our very varied community. Keep posting about yourself and we can teach each other ...Hugs to all

[Soon]

kick ass post! wow!

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

But really.. I know a transguy that can fluff and fold like nobody's business!

-Tony, who is totally being a smart ass.. Not all femmes can do laundry the way I like it..

Hi Tony... can you be my fluffer..... please.... we don't even need Burt Reyonds or the underwear model....

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Daryn

Hi Tony... can you be my fluffer..... please.... we don't even need Burt Reyonds or the underwear model....

Okay, but you two had better take pictures.

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Dylan

So, out of all of the people who've stated 'transmen don't act like *bio*men', no one can tell me how *bio*men act?

Dylan

Dayum according to my straight cis gendered buddy there is not one way bio men act...... back to the drawing board, Dylan..... I think you need to ask for a list.... something will stick somewhere

[Dylan]

I'm glad someone bumped this thread.

I was talking to someone yesterday about this thread, and I think I was not clear in one point of what I was saying.

RE: constantly repeating TRANSman, TRANSman, TRANSman over and over and over...especially when no one on this site knows of any cismen floating around here.

There's a thing that privileged people do with people from oppressed groups. I'm sure there's a name for this, but I don't know what that name is...maybe Mahhh Woman does.

Ya' ever know ThatPerson (or been ThatPerson...I know I have) who constantly refers to all of their friends as "My Black Friend SoAndSo", or "My Gay Friend SuchASuch", or "My friend BlahBlah The Lesbian"...even when it's completely A) unnecessary or B) irrelevant to the conversation? It's just a privileged way to A) use your 'friends' as a means to mark how 'cool' you are that you have Black/Gay/Lesbian friends and B) to constantly make a separation/distinction even when it's completely inappropriate.

That is what I'm talking about regarding the overuse of TRANSSSSSSSman on this site.


K, Thanks,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

i know this transguy.
he lives in TX and wants to have a special trans-commune.
filled with trans-species.
they will all gather round the campfire, sing kumbaya and shave each others backs.

i am not only cool...i am trans/green friendly.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'm glad someone bumped this thread.

I was talking to someone yesterday about this thread, and I think I was not clear in one point of what I was saying.

RE: constantly repeating TRANSman, TRANSman, TRANSman over and over and over...especially when no one on this site knows of any cismen floating around here.

There's a thing that privileged people do with people from oppressed groups. I'm sure there's a name for this, but I don't know what that name is...maybe Mahhh Woman does.

Ya' ever know ThatPerson (or been ThatPerson...I know I have) who constantly refers to all of their friends as "My Black Friend SoAndSo", or "My Gay Friend SuchASuch", or "My friend BlahBlah The Lesbian"...even when it's completely A) unnecessary or B) irrelevant to the conversation? It's just a privileged way to A) use your 'friends' as a means to mark how 'cool' you are that you have Black/Gay/Lesbian friends and B) to constantly make a separation/distinction even when it's completely inappropriate.

That is what I'm talking about regarding the overuse of TRANSSSSSSSman on this site.


K, Thanks,
Dylan

What about those of us that claim transman as our own choice as ID? Similar to how some use "tranny" (a term I personally dislike) to ID themselves?

Asking seriously and wanting directions to the trans-commune

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Linus

Asking seriously and wanting directions to the trans-commune

First you need a ticket from trans world airlines (oh wait they went out of business years ago or maybe there is a new one....). Then you must fly to No. California and wander through the redwoods for 40 days and 40 nights..... and when you wake on the 41st morning, if you eat your granola and sing kumbaya perfectly a transbird will drop directions to the nearest transporter that will beam you to the trans-commune.....

I think I got that right... but it's directions damn it...

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Dylan

That is what I'm talking about regarding the overuse of TRANSSSSSSSman on this site.

Originally Posted by Linus

What about those of us that claim transman as our own choice as ID? Similar to how some use "tranny" (a term I personally dislike) to ID themselves?

I'm thinking the same thing, Linus.

Dylan, is it about *others* referring to the men here as transmen, or someone using that term to self-identify? I'm assuming it's the former but just want to be clear.

I appreciated the example you gave. Someone else describing me as a transman to other people means they are taking upon themselves to out me; that is neither their place nor is it safe (for me). But here, at this site and in this community, it doesn't really phase me. I guess, for me, it's a time & place kind of thing.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Dylan

ETA by Linus: This thread was created out of this other existing thread (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1235) and put as a separate thread to allow it to be discussed on it's own. Enjoy


I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan

Ditto..........

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I'm thinking the same thing, Linus.

Dylan, is it about *others* referring to the men here as transmen, or someone using that term to self-identify? I'm assuming it's the former but just want to be clear.

I appreciated the example you gave. Someone else describing me as a transman to other people means they are taking upon themselves to out me; that is neither their place nor is it safe (for me). But here, at this site and in this community, it doesn't really phase me. I guess, for me, it's a time & place kind of thing.

Yeah, I'm definitely not criticizing how transfolks choose to identify, or when.

Yeah, I'm talking about others ALWAYS using TRANSman instead of just "My friend, SoAndSo" or'him' or just "My male friend SoAndSo"

On this site in particular (well and the other), men of the site are (almost) always referred to TRANSmen...even though its unnecessary.

I mean, I /we don't refer to all the cis people as, "My cis-femme friend SoAndSo" or "I dated a cis-femme once" and so on...but the men of the site are always denoted as TRANSmen or ftms or just The Trans (which to me sounds like a disease like The Clap)...never (ok, maybe once or twice) do we get to just be 'men' without our trans status being noted/referenced.

I don't refer to my friends as "My Black/Lesbian/Gay friend SoAndSo" anymore, because it's kinda gross...unless it's actually relevant to the convo


I Don't Know If That's More Clear,
Dylan

[Jet]

I've shared this story before, but it bears repeating. (My) male sexuality is innate. It's built in; I am not a masculine woman, I'm a man. It isn't easy to be transgendered especially when there is discrimination within the LGBTQ community.

I'll never forget being "disinvited" to a July 4 gathering because I was, at the time, a non transitioned FTM who identifies as male. The hosts of the party didn't want me around their straight mother and sister. They were afraid that I would call them on missed pronouns and so forth.

I was never given the chance top show that I would have been gracious. But it was okay to invite a transitioned FTM because they apparently passed.

I've experienced discrimination from lesbians who don't want anything masculine around. It's usually, "if I wanted a man, I'd go straight." Comments like this negate a rooted male identification. Jus saying this has been my experience.

[Sam]

Dylan

i respect you and your opinion.

i never thought i would say that, but after reading this thread. I actually kind of understand you better.

Great thread


Sam
"you know the one that so many have opinions about, but never really met"