Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Bitches and femmes.

I love typos. I promise I'm not making fun of you.

Like on the news the other day when the newscaster said "Christless counselors are on the scene" (meaning CRISIS counselors) It killed me a whole lot.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Oh, I see. So even though you put "If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men?" and "How does this work if one is queer?" immediately following each other in the same paragraph (only things that were in that paragraph, in fact) the two questions had nothing to do with each other. You just forgot to hit the enter key between your two separate and completely unrelated thoughts, is all. Got it.

I'm sorry that you cannot see how being attracted to FTMs but not to non-trans men can be hurtful to (some) guys. All men are men. They just are. FTMs are not ex-women, they're men.

No those two sentences go together exactly as I wrote them.

A transman is a man. A cis man is a man. Is there only one type of man? There are lots of different types of women- one type no better than the other. A transwoman is a woman, a butch woman is a woman, a femme woman is a woman, a straight woman is a woman, etc. None are less than or better "women."

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A transman is a man. A cis man is a man. Is there only one type of man? There are lots of different types of women- one type no better than the other. A transwoman is a woman, a butch woman is a woman, a femme woman is a woman, a straight woman is a woman, etc. None are less than or better "women."

You get that being a woman (trans or otherwise) is a sex, and that butch and femme are genders, and that straight is a sexual orientation....right?

butch, femme, straight, queer, artistic, conservative, sporty, aggressive...those are different ways of being a woman. yes.

but transwoman and non-trans woman? those are not two different ways of being a woman. your sex is your sex. period.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

You get that being a woman (trans or otherwise) is a sex, and that butch and femme are genders, and that straight is a sexual orientation....right?

butch, femme, straight, queer, artistic, conservative, sporty, aggressive...those are different ways of being a woman. yes.

but transwoman and non-trans woman? those are not two different ways of being a woman. your sex is your sex. period.

Yes Betenoire, I am perfectly clear on all of that.

People keep talking about man in these discussions when I think they are really talking about male.

Man and woman are gender. Male and female are biological sex.

Edit: actually I think of woman as gender, so I don't agree with the first part of what you said. Female is biological sex, woman is gender.

[Martina]

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me. If someone is attracted to you, even if you aren't to them, that is a compliment, a sweet thing.

If a transguy wants to date women who date cismen, i get it. That's fine. Going out of his way to criticize a woman who is not interested in cismen but may be in him or another transguy -- i don't get it. It's unnecessary.

The implication is that your identity as a man is dependent on, or at least can be affected by, the kind of attention you receive from women or the kind of women you receive attention from.

As a girl, i was certainly taught that my identity as a woman was dependent on the attentions of men, but i outgrew that.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me. If someone is attracted to you, even if you aren't to them, that is a compliment, a sweet thing.

If a transguy wants to date women who date cismen, i get it. That's fine. Going out of his way to criticize a woman who is not interested in cismen but may be in him or another transguy -- i don't get it. It's unnecessary.

The implication is that your identity as a man is dependent on, or at least can be affected by, the kind of attention you receive from women or the kind of women you receive attention from.

As a girl, i was certainly taught that my identity as a woman was dependent on the attentions of men, but i outgrew that.

And if I say, "I'm attracted to you, because I see you as a straight woman", am I attracted to YOU or some picture of you I'VE created?

If you keep saying, "Um, I'm not straight", but I keep saying, "Oh yeah, queer, lesbian, straight, whatever"...is that being attracted to YOU or some picture I've created?


Dylan

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

From the other thread:

Originally Posted by betenoire

I know this is unpopular opinion, and it's really none of my business who other people date...but it strikes me as icky when someone will date an FTM but not a non-trans man. Like, TO ME, that insinuates that they don't fully acknowledge their lovers sex/gender.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

From the other thread:

Ok, Bulldog (since you're now speaking for Martina), then why are men being blamed for something Potty said


And Why Are You Speaking For So Many Folks Except The Female Butch Contingency...or yourself?,
Dylan...also wonders why you're specifically avoiding answering Potty's questions to you about your own words, and why you're using deflection by mixing up other people's words

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

i like Dylan's original post. The what do you like about transmen thread was blowing my mind. Most transguys i know would have hated most of that stuff. The they understand me better or they have been through so much and are therefore more sensitive. Dylan put it way better than i could summarize. Most transmen i have met do not date femmes. If they like feminine women, they prefer straight or bi women. (i know there are bi femmes.)

However, this stuff can veer toward dissing femmes, which makes me sad. Like Dylan's comment about if someone is dating only transmen, are they just seeing them as really butch butches. Well, what if they DO??? As long as whoever they are dating is fine with it. Seriously, if a transguy is with a queer femme, then he is probably a little more queer identified than the average transguy. He may not be squicked.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

So i appreciate this thread as a corrective to the other one, which i figured HAD to get a reaction at some point. But boy i hate to see this interrogation of the motives of femmes who like transguys.

i do not date transmen. i did for a second. And i realized, hey, these guys are men, and i am a dyke. Not going to work. That's why when Dylan seems to argue for some separate category for transmen, as somehow exempt from accusations of male privilege, i don't get it. i experience transmen as men. That's how it FEELS. That is the effect they have on me.

Yes, what is all this about (in red)? Again, this community seems so closed to me at times. Stereotypes abound!!!

I agree with you & Dylan that the other thread was/is not a very true representation at all. Certainly doesn't jive with what I understand from women I know that are with Transmen. A couple of them have sent me YUCK notes about the thread. And yes, I know others that just could not/can't date Transmen because they are dykes/lesbians as well as identifying as femme.

It is quite sad that this interrogation of a femme's motivation concerning attraction/dating/partnering/marrying a Transman exists here. I'm still looking for all this love of diversity..... Just look at some of the comments about stone sexuality, BDSM, some members being poly, etc......

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Ok, Bulldog (since you're now speaking for Martina), then why are men being blamed for something Potty said


And Why Are You Speaking For So Many Folks Except The Female Butch Contingency...or yourself?,
Dylan...also wonders why you're specifically avoiding answering Potty's questions to you about your own words, and why you're using deflection by mixing up other people's words

I'm not speaking for Martina. I agreed with what she said earlier. You asked where someone had been criticized anyone for not dating non-trans. I provided the quote.

What precisely am I avoiding answering. I've answered very directly. I am not mixing up anyone's words.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yes, what is all this about (in red)? Again, this community seems so closed to me at times. Stereotypes abound!!!

I agree with you & Dylan that the other thread was/is not a very true representation at all. Certainly doesn't jive with what I understand from women I know that are with Transmen. A couple of them have sent me YUCK notes about the thread. And yes, I know others that just could not/can't date Transmen because they are dykes/lesbians as well as identifying as femme.

It is quite sad that this interrogation of a femme's motivation concerning attraction/dating/partnering/marrying a Transman exists here. I'm still looking for all this love of diversity..... Just look at some of the comments about stone sexuality, BDSM, some members being poly, etc......

And I'm still wondering if *some* people who date men feel stripped of their 'community ID cards' if they admit they date men and that's why they feel soooooooo compelled to always keep their 'trans'men 'formerly female'


But...,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm not speaking for Martina. I agreed with what she said earlier. You asked where someone had been criticized anyone for not dating non-trans. I provided the quote.

What precisely am I avoiding answering. I've answered very directly. I am not mixing up anyone's words.

Martina said a man had said it

It's in her post (which I quoted)


You Didn't Answer Directly...You Backpeddled And Waffled. And Yeah, You Are Mixing Up Other People's Words To Better Fit Some Conversation You WISH Folks Were Having (or something),
Dylan...isn't going to rehash all of Potty's posts again, so we can go around in the inevitable circle of avoidance and deflection

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina said a man had said it

It's in her post (which I quoted)


You Didn't Answer Directly...You Backpeddled And Waffled. And Yeah, You Are Mixing Up Other People's Words To Better Fit Some Conversation You WISH Folks Were Having (or something),
Dylan...isn't going to rehash all of Potty's posts again, so we can go around in the inevitable circle of avoidance and deflection

I haven't back peddled, waffled, deflected or avoided anything. Whatever Dylan. The things you are saying about me are absurd. Have your conversation.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dylan, you make a very big distinction between cis and transmen. That's two different categories of men right? Why would I be seeing all men exactly the same if some are considered trans and some are considered cis?

Dylan I asked you this question and you never answered. I didn't accuse you of backpeddling, waffling, deflecting or avoiding. I just figured you didn't want to answer it- cuz really you are not obligated.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Martina

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me.

To me it doesn't read as though the person is offended by the attraction itself, but what the attraction implies.

Originally Posted by BullDog

You asked where someone had been criticized anyone for not dating non-trans. I provided the quote.

...yeah. That wasn't criticizing. I was simply saying that it doesn't make sense to me. I didn't say that people who date FTMs but won't date a non-trans guy are satanists, kick puppies, have ugly shoes, or are stupid.

There is a difference between questioning and criticism. And also, people are not their actions. I can think a certain practice is distasteful, but that does not necessitate that I think that anybody who engages in said practice is distasteful.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

To me it doesn't read as though the person is offended by the attraction itself, but what the attraction implies.



...yeah. That wasn't criticizing. I was simply saying that it doesn't make sense to me. I didn't say that people who date FTMs but won't date a non-trans guy are satanists, kick puppies, have ugly shoes, or are stupid.

There is a difference between questioning and criticism. And also, people are not their actions. I can think a certain practice is distasteful, but that does not necessitate that I think that anybody who engages in said practice is distasteful.

Ok, thanks.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

i was responding to some stuff in the bulldog/betenoire interaction. It was implied. i don't know. Too tired to track it down.

Re what you said otherwise, that would be unacceptable. Are a lot of femmes out there insisting that their trans partners or dates are TRANS rather than men? Is that what you are saying? i get lost sometimes with the hypotheticals.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And I'm still wondering if *some* people who date men feel stripped of their 'community ID cards' if they admit they date men and that's why they feel soooooooo compelled to always keep their 'trans'men 'formerly female'


But...,
Dylan

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

[BullDog]

I don't see cis men as the be-all and end-all of man. I don't understand why some transmen would hold cis men up as the measuring stick of man and think they were being thought of us as less than if people don't see them exactly the same as cis men. I seriously don't get it. I don't think all transmen do this, but it seems that some do.

Some of the finest men that I am aware of are transmen. I seriously don't get why we are supposed to see all men as exactly the same- as if "man" is some monolithic entity with no variation.

Also, whether someone has transitioned or not has zilch to do with whether they are a man or woman as far as I am concerned. Gender is not biology. Not everyone can afford to transition, others may have health issues, others may not transition by choice, etc.

If I was going to date a a transwoman who was a femme (because femmes is who I date) or I have a friend who is a transwoman, am I supposed to just completely ignore her past, her childhood, what she has gone through in her life? Just because I know and acknowledge that she was born male doesn't mean I don't see her as a woman.

Perhaps saying "honoring someone's journey" is too woo woo, but seriously I think all of us here, no matter what our gender and sex are, have genders that we have earned and that we have made our own. Not all of us are transsexed or transgendered, but none of us came built to factory specifications, especially our genders. We didn't just take what was given us at birth and go through life not questioning things. We are who we are because of the personal journeys each one of us has taken. I honor everyone's journey here.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

i was responding to some stuff in the bulldog/betenoire interaction. It was implied. i don't know. Too tired to track it down.

Re what you said otherwise, that would be unacceptable. Are a lot of femmes out there insisting that their trans partners or dates are TRANS rather than men? Is that what you are saying? i get lost sometimes with the hypotheticals.

Thanks for the clarification

I DO see a lot of the insistent 'trans'-ing, and overdoing the "My partner is FTM". Like, instead of just saying, "I'm with a man" or "I dated a guy once", it's "I was with a TRANSguy once..." or "I date a lot of FTMs" etc. Like, it's not sufficient to just say, "I'm with a man" or "I'm with a guy".

In some cases, I get the impression it's a way of outing oneself/queering oneself (and I see this in real time, so that's why I'm wondering if online it's the same reasoning). What I see in real time is this 'Chosen Closet'. Like...today, I want to be in the closet, so I'm with a guy...but tomorrow, when we go to SuchASuchPlace, I want to be outed, so I'm with a TRANNNNNSguy" (said like annoying people who say, "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadies") instead of just owning that the responsibility is One's own to out themselves. It's kind of like using someone else to do your 'dirty work' (if coming out can be considered 'dirty work')...like (and I'm saying 'like' wayyyy too much), if I out YOU, then I don't have to take responsibility for outing ME. Does that make sense?

And in some cases, I wonder if repeating the TRANSman mantra over and over is some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away...Seeeeeeeeeeeee he's not a man man...he's a TRANNNNNNNSman'...and I wonder this, because I tend to see this particular behavior more online than I do in real time. I don't see the over usage of TRANSman the way I do online. I hear partners just say, "My boyfriend/guy/he/etc". No one in my real time circle of friends over uses trans to the extent I see online.

I don't know if that makes sense, because this conversation in this particular thread is missing a lot, because some posts are missing from the original conversation, and some posts are taken without the context of the original conversation.

And yeah, I've known (of) some people who insist their guy is 'formerly female' or who see their guy as (formerly) female first...then trans. Again, their partner(s) is/are expected to be female when it's convenient and male when it's convenient, but it doesn't seem up to the guy...it's up to the partner and the partner's situation. Again, I have no idea how the actual guy(s) feel about this, because I don't really talk to these people, I just know what I see/hear.


Dylan