Masculine of Center -- the term

[JustBeingMe]

Just wondering if anyone else has anything to say about MoC? Bumpin the thread back to life.

[Loren_Q]

Originally Posted by JustBeingMe

Just wondering if anyone else has anything to say about MoC? Bumpin the thread back to life.

Yes, sort of.

I'm not fond of the term, but it doesn't bother me either.

I can relate to the thinking that 'butch' belongs to a specific group (i.e. Caucasian). I am Asian/Mexican but I came of age at a time when "butch" was more inclusive. So I'll continue to use butch (and the less popular androgynous) for myself and let others use what is most comfortable to them.

As to the ire about MOC taking away/replacing butch as an identity: I don't think it does, it doesn't take away from mine but YMMV. I'm not entirely clear why someone elses preferred identification should impact mine.

I did want to bring this back to the OP's original questions,and since I'll screw up multi-quoting I'll copy/paste her questions.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it?
I do believe it's more accepted in the younger POC community. But I also think those who ID as Stud, Macha, and Aggressive prefer to use Stud, Macha, and Aggressive before they use MoC.

Do you like it? Would you adopt it?
Already answered. But there is one caveat, I may grow to like it more and later find that I could/would adopt it.

Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?
I think the intent is to be more inclusive and not rejection/replacement. However I also believe any attempt to create an umbrella term will be met with dissatisfaction by some.

Loren

[JustBeingMe]

Thanks L, for the input. I found this thread interesting to say the least. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. I hope more post as well.

[Greyson]

In my reading today I ran across this. It is about an article ran in Jet Magazine in October 1970. Two African American women in Chicago got married. The term butch or femme is not used but neither is the terms "stud" and masculine of center.

I was 16 back then and just beginning to hang out with the other butches and femmes I was meeting that were in my age group and coming out. When I saw this photo of Peaches and Edna it took me way back. This is what I remember when coming out. POC Butches and Femmes were here but not in positions of leadership in the Women's Movement.

One of my points in all of this is to give others a glimpse of what it was like for POC working class lesbians, butches and femmes. Below are two links to this story. In the Jet Archives site you will see on the same page a piece about interacial marriage just beginning in Maryland. Look where we are today. It has gotten better but not good enough, yet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ijc...arriage&f=true

http://www.buzzfeed.com/saeedjones/j...edding-in-1970

[imperfect_cupcake]

I have seen the term used a lot on tumblr with the under 25 kids cautiously coming out as "not feminine". I read their blogs and I love all the new fashion sites they are building, taking notes from DapperQ and others.

I'm for whatever people want to use. I know way too many people that do not believe they are butch or want to use the term. For them, it means something else. I used to argue with partners "but you *are* you are just misunderstanding what butch means..."
No, to me butch IS an umbrella term. to them it is *not* and they don't wish to use it. Just like many people in the UK find the term "butch" to actually mean "american masculinity" (not all, but a good chunk of people I knew in london) and thus came up with their own.

I cam home to find all these women who I would say had a more "rugged" style masculinity expression than the ones in uk, france and netherlands and yet they do not see themselves as butch... but they know they ain't no girl. I called them boydykes, they even fidgeted at that. Nothing they could gab onto makes them comfortable. But MoC they nod at, ok yeah, of course.

It does not hold up under deconstructive scrutiny but ... so the fuck what? there's a ton of people out there that actually really need open terms, like genderqueer and MoC. Who am I to pick their terms apart like femme has been ripped at over the time I have used it?

There is no way I'm going to do that to someone else's like what was done to me. Femme torn apart like some label terminology, politically deconstructed and chewed and put on the table to show me just how weak it was.

not gonna do that to a term that other people need or want. Centre of a line that I don't believe exists? so what. it works. I get the metaphor. I understand the gesture that is trying to be made and the hand signals.

I personally dn't think "Masculinity"is a great word either as I don't think many of my partners wanted to adopt the term. they wanted their own word for what they projected but there wasn't one. so in lew of that word they grudgingly accept that is just the category people see it under. A gesture for a poor language.

That's what MoC is, to me. it's an attempt to decribe something in brief terms so that people will "get it."

if someone called themself "FoC" - have at it. I don't own femininity. if they want to include me in a metagroup? meh. sure. no skin off my nose. it doesn't stop me from going to school or wearing what I do or loving who I love.

I dunno, call me a fucking waffle if you want. Doesn't change anything. A rose is still what it is no matter what you call it. And the same goes for me.

And I think it's great there is more space for people, especially the young ones, to come out into while they find their feet.

I'm going to a massive dragking show on saturday and it will be full of tomboys, androgyne-boys, bois, MoC, genderqueer and all kinds of people who in my brain are butch, but for them, are very happy being called something they don't feel has any rules around it. And it makes them more comfortable, then I'm happy.
I still see them as I always have when they are in bed with me, can't help it, I came out when I did so to me, butch is the umbrella term. But I keep that to myself and don't force anyone to adopt what their dictionary says doesn't fit.

their definition is waaayyy different than mine but I gave up arguing that mine was better and right. it's just mine is all.