Are butches really a dying breed?

[DapperButch]

Perhaps butches aren't a dying breed, but it seems as though the "butch nod" is. We don't have many butch folk around here. So, last night, when I saw two in the same mexican restaurant/bar as me (separately), I was disappointed to not get the "butch nod" from either of them. Seems to me butches are giving the "nod" less.

What is up with that? Is it because they are reading me as male? I don't think so. One was a lot younger than me, the other not. They looked right through me. What is up with that?

Are other butches experiencing this? The "butch nod" is like the greatest thing ever. It puts a lift in your step. So sad.

[TruTexan]

Gee I didn't read take offense to anything she said and I'm a butch lesbian.

It makes me sad when this stuff happens to people, and I"m sure this probably ran her off, I"d be very surprised if it didn't.

[TruTexan]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Perhaps butches aren't a dying breed, but it seems as though the "butch nod" is. We don't have many butch folk around here. So, last night, when I saw two in the same mexican restaurant/bar as me (separately), I was disappointed to not get the "butch nod" from either of them. Seems to me butches are giving the "nod" less.

What is up with that? Is it because they are reading me as male? I don't think so. One was a lot younger than me, the other not. They looked right through me. What is up with that?

Are other butches experiencing this? The "butch nod" is like the greatest thing ever. It puts a lift in your step. So sad.

Dapper, I always give the other butches a nod, it's my own way of letting them know I see them. I don't always get a response though.I even give the butch a nod when I see hy or she is with a beautiful date or partner. That's my way of acknowledging them as a couple as well. I thought it was just a Texan thang bro. LOL

[Jess]

Originally Posted by TruTexan

Gee I didn't read take offense to anything she said and I'm a butch lesbian.

It makes me sad when this stuff happens to people, and I"m sure this probably ran her off, I"d be very surprised if it didn't.

One of the beautiful and sometimes painfully eye opening aspects of this website that I have found and personally experienced, is the encouragement from its members and ownership to help point out when a member is using language or makes statements that can be read or felt as "othering" or demeaning or creates a sense of lesser than.

This is what I did. I addressed her directly and from "my me place" and without condemning her, I simply explained how her choice of phrase made ME feel. I further added that she may find the type of butch that she is looking for in threads in the Lesbian Zone, which if I am not mistaken, you TruTexan should find agreeable, since you actually started one of the threads I had in mind when making the suggestion. I was sincerely trying to help her find what she appears to be looking for.

Just as she is not responsible for my feelings, only for her choice of words, I am not responsible for her feelings to my response, only how I present my feelings and thoughts to her.

Your attempt to guilt or shame anyone (myself in particular) for how ConCrtAngel reacts is frankly an unnecessary and shit stirring gesture and very manipulative, whether intentional or not.

I do not for one second believe that ConCrtAngel was attempting to deliberately slight anyone or their ID. I am also entitled to express in a positive manner how it made me feel when presented as it was.

[C0LLETTE]

Is it possible that the question "Are butches really a dying breed" and its use of the term "breed" is itself problematic in that it implies some common essential characteristic? And that, in turn, might lead people to respond in particular ways.

Is the question asking whether fewer people are identifying as "butch" or whether there are now fewer people with certain identifiable characteristics around? Or maybe it is asking something altogether different.

I am curious how others might interpret the question. If someone has already posted on this point and I missed it, I apologise in advance

[imperfect_cupcake]

I've never seen the butch nod. Ever. But then I'm mostly where people keep themselves to themselves in certain ways. I think I've been given the dyke recognition nod twice in my life. Sucks shit not to get it, but hey ho.

And I've had my own asshole handed to me on a platter for things I've said. I don't think anyone was rude, and I stated a pet peeve of mine around the usage of true butch in a pretty diplomatic way tru Texan. I'm pretty sure anyone with half a clit would not be so meek as to have been chased off by a debate. No insults were made, no firestorms, no bare ass paddling. Frankly if people can't deal with a debate that keeps to polite interaction (polite. Not swaddled kid gloves) then perhaps people shouldn't be partaking Iin a discussion thread and stick to fun, fluff and games.

We aren't made of glass.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Is it possible that the question "Are butches really a dying breed" and its use of the term "breed" is itself problematic in that it implies some common essential characteristic? And that, in turn, might lead people to respond in particular ways.

Is the question asking whether fewer people are identifying as "butch" or whether there are now fewer people with certain identifiable characteristics around? Or maybe it is asking something altogether different.

I am curious how others might interpret the question. If someone has already posted on this point and I missed it, I apologise in advance

This is an interesting thought. Perhaps you weren't suggesting this exactly, but I can see how when one read the title of the thread that they may read "Butch breed" to mean "true butch".

In an American Kennel Club dog competition, for example, there is a descriptor used to compliment a dog. They will say the dog is "true to breed". This means that the dog fits the identifying characteristics defined by the breed (based on AKC standards). So, by extension, one could see the thread title as speaking to "true butches".

I have no idea if anyone read the title this way (and it doesn't seem to be that way to me based on the posts), but I see what you are saying.

For me, I saw the title as referring to those individuals who identify as butch, full stop.

One thing that I really like about this site is that the accepted definition of gender identities is who the person says they are. I wouldn't be a part of a site where others defined who is and who is not butch or femme.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I've never seen the butch nod. Ever. But then I'm mostly where people keep themselves to themselves in certain ways. I think I've been given the dyke recognition nod twice in my life. Sucks shit not to get it, but hey ho….

.

I have seen the butch nod, and it always makes me happy. I get less and less dyke recognition as the years go by, so I love to see that "Yeah, we're cool. We know who we are and we'll acknowledge it in that special too-cool-for-school butch way" nod amongst butches.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I have seen the butch nod, and it always makes me happy. I get less and less dyke recognition as the years go by, so I love to see that "Yeah, we're cool. We know who we are and we'll acknowledge it in that special too-cool-for-school butch way" nod amongst butches.

I agree Cheryl and am glad to read your post.

My girlfriend gets and reciprocates (or initiates) the nod frequently.

She does not even consciously connect the nod with either her butchness or that of others until I smile with delight.

As an invisible femme, I get the recognition by association and it does feel good.

It helps me to feel a part of our community.

[imperfect_cupcake]

recognition does feel good, absolutely. I got heaps of it in London. More than I ever have in my life. just not in a solidarity nod on the street. You don't nod to strangers on the street. that would be inviting them to talk to you and that's considered dangerous to do. And then you'd also have to think of something to say if the worst happened and they SPOKE TO YOU. lol.
Thats why people are very quiet in queues there.

Anyway, I am more than sure it exists. especially in places where being gay is repressed and considered wrong. I am putting forward for consideration that as youth may be growing up with much higher acceptance for who they are, they no longer feel the need to nod at strangers who may or may not be like them. The more acceptance you have, the less community there is. Unless you make a sub-sub-group for interest sake. Like a book club for academic genderqueers who like edwardian ghost tales.

Here there is boxing for genderqueers and yoga and a cafe and a gallery and... quite a few other things. there's even a two million dollar fund given by government towards a queer (as in genderqueer) community centre. Many of whom I personally would have called butch are now calling themselves genderqueer and transmasculine rather than butch and aligning themselves with the queer culture rather than butch-femme or lesbian. But that's local to me (and seemingly what was also going on in London) I don't know what's different about crossing the boarder, but I know when I speak to people in seattle, it suddenly becomes a very different type of potato.

[ProfPacker]

I do see the same phenomena in youth who are (or already have) constructed and co-constructed gender, gender queer and other identities that are "akin" to their own cultural constructs but like honey Barbara said, it is different in different locales. In my host community (which is considered one of the more progressive in the country)... them youth seem to have less cultural constrictions as coming out on the lbgtq continuum and there are more than a few trans youth and as both my kids says one in middle and one out in the world) it is just is.

However, I teach on Staten Island, a much more conservative community and I see a different construct. Even standing before classes as an out instructor I still have students writing in their self reflections ttheir struggles. Do not know of one out trans youth in the 200 or so kids or adults I have taught at this school. So it very even within close in proximity locals close to NYC

[ConCrtAnge1]

i am so very sorry to have used any offensive labeling.. I am in noway or in noway was I trying to offend, hurt, stereo type and or come off as "racist or homophobic." I will use extreme caution before posting next time.
I do want to thanks those for the welcomes and to those who were there to address the flaws in my post. Again I apologize... Happy Mardi Gras in St Louis

[Jess]

Originally Posted by ConCrtAnge1

i am so very sorry to have used any offensive labeling.. I am in noway or in noway was I trying to offend, hurt, stereo type and or come off as "racist or homophobic." I will use extreme caution before posting next time.
I do want to thanks those for the welcomes and to those who were there to address the flaws in my post. Again I apologize... Happy Mardi Gras in St Louis

Fat Tuesday coming up! ENJOY!!

I knew you meant no harm Thank you for jumping back in here! And seriously, check out the threads in The Lesbian Zone... there are lots of butches around who dance the same way you do lady!

Mahalo! Good Luck!

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Originally Posted by Dub

For me, I didn't claim the identity of Butch until I was 40 years old and that's mostly because of the idea that I didn't want to be labeled, and therefore, stereotyped. It wasn't until I attended Butch Voices in 2010 where I learned about some of our history and finally felt like there are others out there whom I could relate to that I proudly embraced the Butch identity.

Where I am in the US (the Pacific Northwest), it seems as thought the younger generation would rather define themselves as Genderqueer these days. I wonder, though, if they knew more about our history whether they would feel the same as I and claim that identity as part of themselves.

Growing up, I didn't have any Butch role models so finding them later in life helped me find that part of me. Does that make sense?

So, what I'm trying to get at is, perhaps there are Butches out there who just haven't come to yet claim their identity. At least that's what I'd like to believe rather then the think about us dying away.

I proudly embrace the Butch identify. I have had the influence of a Butch Mentor who has taken the time to explain the history. It should never be forgotten. And, I agree that younger butches don't know the history because they don't want to or they don't realize its importance.

I think it is human nature to stereotype someone and put them in a box with a neat little label. While some might find comfort in that label, for MOST it is limiting. Whatever works. Sometimes, I think there is too much protest about a label. Wear it. Twist it. Flaunt it. Make it your OWN. OWN it ... create the label around yourself.

I don't believe it for a moment that butches are dying out. We are not dinosaurs. Perhaps, people's perceptions are changing and evolving. People evolve. We don't die out. We are adaptable and it may be all that label twisting that is muddying the waters a bit.

I am here. I am proud of the history. I ain't goin' anywhere and neither are My brothers.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Originally Posted by SaltyButch

Paradox, I couldn't agree with you more, I am in Mississauga and struggle with finding a community that embraces the butch/femme dynamic let alone Old School in Toronto or the GTA in general. If you are interested in making a new friend I would welcome the opportunity.

As to "butch" a dying breed, I think the rigid definition perhaps is fading out, however, in this day and age there is a new label almost everyday to try and include everyone within our community. I'm not one for labels, but within the b/f community it's a necessity if only to wean out potential partners.

I've been known for years as a "soft butch", because I wasn't clad in the clothes deemed to be what "hard butch"....I prefer to be me, I don't wear heels, makeup or dresses, but on occassion wear silk shirts does that make me less butch. I don't think so, it makes me comfortable with me and who I am, and I'm pretty sure a certain someone has no question that I'm butch.

We need to stop letting people define "us", and embrace and be confident with who we think we are, whether it be soft butch, female Id'd, male id'd, cock id'd, stone, andro, Old School or whatever we choose. The point is "we" are Butch and we bring something different and definitive to the table.

I agree that maybe some of the rigidity is softening around the edges but for Me being younger, the "old school" is comforting. I like structure. I like that rigidness. It is a foundation to take what is there and build on it. Take the model and cast it anew... if you will.

ANYONE who tells someone else they are not "enough" of something needs to take a step (or 5) back and rethink that statement. I know as humans we judge. It is what we "do" .. but we are not judge and jury over what anyone else "is" or "does".

Everyone brings their own style to a "label". Like I said before. TWIST the label until it fits. *G

I do some things that some might consider a little feminine... I am careful with My grooming and My choice of clothes. Every butch I know is the same way. Are we cookie-cutter models. No. It is a matter of pride. Some days I am a slouch but I don't go out in public like that. I wear pink. Sometimes silk. AND, I wear it well.

Call me "less than". Go on. Your opinion of Me is not My business.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Perhaps butches aren't a dying breed, but it seems as though the "butch nod" is. We don't have many butch folk around here. So, last night, when I saw two in the same mexican restaurant/bar as me (separately), I was disappointed to not get the "butch nod" from either of them. Seems to me butches are giving the "nod" less.

What is up with that? Is it because they are reading me as male? I don't think so. One was a lot younger than me, the other not. They looked right through me. What is up with that?

Are other butches experiencing this? The "butch nod" is like the greatest thing ever. It puts a lift in your step. So sad.

I get the "nod" often. It is not a dying thing here. Not sure why it may be elsewhere.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Originally Posted by ConCrtAnge1

i am so very sorry to have used any offensive labeling.. I am in noway or in noway was I trying to offend, hurt, stereo type and or come off as "racist or homophobic." I will use extreme caution before posting next time.
I do want to thanks those for the welcomes and to those who were there to address the flaws in my post. Again I apologize... Happy Mardi Gras in St Louis

WELCOME! I read your opening statements twice and I was not offended. It takes time to feel your way around and know that some terms upset folks. They are triggers. Don't let it throw you. Stick around. You will get the hang of it. *W

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

One of the beautiful and sometimes painfully eye opening aspects of this website that I have found and personally experienced, is the encouragement from its members and ownership to help point out when a member is using language or makes statements that can be read or felt as "othering" or demeaning or creates a sense of lesser than.

Originally Posted by Jess

I knew you meant no harm Thank you for jumping back in here! And seriously, check out the threads in The Lesbian Zone... there are lots of butches around who dance the same way you do lady!

Jess, as a lesbian butch, I found your responses to this new persons post to be very "othering".

She is coming from her "me" space just as you are coming from yours. This community is about embracing diversity. A different "me" space is diversity in action. People should not feel compelled to apologize for their "me" space.

To repeatedly direct her to the lesbian threads is othering. Lesbian butches post in this thread as well. That is just not cool.

Originally Posted by NitroChrys_Butch

I am here. I am proud of the history. I ain't goin' anywhere and neither are My brothers.

Originally Posted by NitroChrys_Butch

WELCOME! I read your opening statements twice and I was not offended. It takes time to feel your way around and know that some terms upset folks. They are triggers. Don't let it throw you. Stick around. You will get the hang of it. *W

Chris, not all butches are your "brothers". Some of the female butches who embrace their femaleness feel both othered and negated by the band of brothers mentality.

Moral of the story, before we go looking for fault in how others post, we should look at what we ourselves post and the messages they send - intentionally or unintentionally.

[Jess]

Jess, as a lesbian butch, I found your responses to this new persons post to be very "othering".

She is coming from her "me" space just as you are coming from yours. This community is about embracing diversity. A different "me" space is diversity in action. People should not feel compelled to apologize for their "me" space.

To repeatedly direct her to the lesbian threads is othering. Lesbian butches post in this thread as well. That is just not cool.




Moral of the story, before we go looking for fault in how others post, we should look at what we ourselves post and the messages they send - intentionally or unintentionally.

Kobi,

I am not going to bother with playing tete a tete with you regarding MY posts or those of ConCrtAngel. If you felt othered then that is how you felt. I won't apologize because I did not cause those feelings. I am not responsible for your feelings.

I never condemned or berated her and I don't "look for fault" because frankly I don't have the energy to do that. I simply did what has been done for me on this website over the years and trust me, I was far more kind than the "schooling" I received.

As for referring her to the Lesbian Zone, I do helpful things quite a lot. Pointing out to a newcomer that there may be threads in a particular spot on this site that may help her with the issue they have (based upon her words while coming from her "me place") is one of those ways in which I try to help.

In short, I am feeling pretty damned ok with the interaction that ConCrtAngel and I had. It feels resolved. It feels DONE. It feels kind of warm and squishy even to have been able to express my feelings in a way that clearly did NOT engage her personhood, merely a choice of words and to even be able to be helpful. I am actually digging that and really happy she came back and genuinely seemed to be very ok with how it went down.


Have a good one.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

Jess, as a lesbian butch, I found your responses to this new persons post to be very "othering".

She is coming from her "me" space just as you are coming from yours. This community is about embracing diversity. A different "me" space is diversity in action. People should not feel compelled to apologize for their "me" space.

To repeatedly direct her to the lesbian threads is othering. Lesbian butches post in this thread as well. That is just not cool.




Moral of the story, before we go looking for fault in how others post, we should look at what we ourselves post and the messages they send - intentionally or unintentionally.

Kobi,

I am not going to bother with playing tete a tete with you regarding MY posts or those of ConCrtAngel. If you felt othered then that is how you felt. I won't apologize because I did not cause those feelings. I am not responsible for your feelings.

I never condemned or berated her and I don't "look for fault" because frankly I don't have the energy to do that. I simply did what has been done for me on this website over the years and trust me, I was far more kind than the "schooling" I received.

As for referring her to the Lesbian Zone, I do helpful things quite a lot. Pointing out to a newcomer that there may be threads in a particular spot on this site that may help her with the issue they have (based upon her words while coming from her "me place") is one of those ways in which I try to help.

In short, I am feeling pretty damned ok with the interaction that ConCrtAngel and I had. It feels resolved. It feels DONE. It feels kind of warm and squishy even to have been able to express my feelings in a way that clearly did NOT engage her personhood, merely a choice of words and to even be able to be helpful. I am actually digging that and really happy she came back and genuinely seemed to be very ok with how it went down.


Have a good one.

Communication is a funny thing. We use words in certain ways to send certain messages. Those messages can be loving, playful, used to reinforce expectations, to express anger, hatred, opinions etc.

The words we use, the messages we send are our responsibility. Our words and the messages they convey can have a profound impact on other people.

We are not always aware of the message we are sending. We think we are sending one message until we receive feedback to the contrary. How we deal with that feedback can be very helpful to us in becoming better communicators, to grow in our relationship to other people in a positive way.

Or, we can absolve ourselves of the responsibility of the impact of our words.

The choice is ours.