Gender Fluidity

[Jett]

Loosely a person who is consistently, rhythmically gender fluid or flexible that doesn't fit neatly into the binary confines of one gender or another nor the idea that a person feels only one gender energy in life. It can be an identity, "Gender Fluid", on it's own, or an identity within or on top of an identity such as Butch, Femme, Trans, Boi etc. or for some it can be a simple state of being with or without other IDs.

A gender fluid person may experience feeling "both" simultaneously and/or make subtle shifts between the feeling of one then another. For some maybe it's drastic but for me not a slish-slosh sudden parting of the red sea, it's a clear ebb and flow of a tide of energies, not male/female, not woman/man but the hard sharp lines and soft curves of energies... of which neither ever leaves me entirely... but there is a "base energy".

This is what gender fluid is to me.

I think it's one of the more misunderstood and invalidated gender experiences. I've heard people intricately argue why gender cannot be fluid, or how it's an affront. And well perhaps it's a stick to their binary eye or their personal experience is more linear than mine. I dunno, but viva la difference. (I definitely invite all contrary opinions here)

For the sake of clarity I'm not talking Switches or extreme sport cross dressing. To me that's something else entirely (though thinking now, I imagine it could intertwine for some). I've always been very boy-ish outwardly despite the fluidity except in subtle outward so-called gender "inconsistencies" that fit with my own personal likes and dislikes.

I realize it's different for everyone who is more gender fluid, different starting places, different extremes, general opinions. I'm just curious to hear others thoughts. Any takers?

[Jett]

Oh and I forgot I wanted to mention gender as a social construct. Does that make it just our imagination? I don't think so... we live in a highly gender oriented world and the majority of things around us are "gendered" by society... from clothes to behaviors to colors right down to movements. That is a concrete reality we live in from birth to death and we develop or have strong internal feelings based on that... gender fluid or not everyone does.

[waxnrope]

Thanks for starting this conversation, Metro.

I have something to offer, to add, to disclose, perhaps, but will wait till I can use a real keyboard and concentrate on my thoughts, instead of one finger on the phone.

I will say that, in poking fun at my own id (and NOT the id of the made fun of other ...), I refer to myself as a faggy butch. A term originally given me by a gay man who was an interior designer.

[Soft*Silver]

gender fluidity is not the same as orientation fluidity. I am fluid in my orientation but thats a different thread. I just wanted to point it out tho.

Metro, I actually met someone that was fluid in their gender. It became part of her process to transition from male to female but for a portion of her journey, she was betwixt and between, neither/both. A movement of hers, a tone of her voice, even a dip of her face transformed an entirely different "clue". I say "clue" because people tried to figure her out. She was content in this state for a time but grew restless as the world around her changed and allow her further growth and evolution.

I use "her" because that is where she decided to go. She is who she is now...but at that time, she was distinctly "fluid" and at that moment, it wasnt just a passing thru. It was exactly who she was. She was not a flap that flip flopped. Oh no no no. God I remember looking into her eyes and feeling a "suck in" of my god core. In getting to know her, I realized what a spiritual being she was. (talking to her, you would know how spiritual she was) She wasnt a mix of genders. She was gendered, yet a fuller expression of what gender is, without having to claim one form or another. (I revisit my memory of her every now and then. She is one of my most favorite beings I have encountered this time on this earth.)

I immediately gravitated to her and she gravitated to me when we first met. We understood each other before we said a word. I was "with" someone at the time and felt very uncomfortable with the connection I had with her. I was also uncomfortable because she was obviously femme. I could not believe I was drawn to a feminine spirit, male/female. But had I not been with someone, I would have followed through with this connection. But because I was, I did not put myself in places where I would be near her. We kept a communication, tho distant. I no longer communicate with her. Life, you know...

I so love the fluidity of gender. I love the depth and magnitude it can be expressed within and beyond its social and genetic and spiritual "containers", which to me is the body,mind and soul, the sacred trilogy of human existance. She was the best expression I have met about this fluidity...

[Jett]

Originally Posted by softness

gender fluidity is not the same as orientation fluidity. I am fluid in my orientation but thats a different thread. I just wanted to point it out tho.

Metro, I actually met someone that was fluid in their gender. It became part of her process to transition from male to female but for a portion of her journey, she was betwixt and between, neither/both. A movement of hers, a tone of her voice, even a dip of her face transformed an entirely different "clue". I say "clue" because people tried to figure her out. She was content in this state for a time but grew restless as the world around her changed and allow her further growth and evolution.

I use "her" because that is where she decided to go. She is who she is now...but at that time, she was distinctly "fluid" and at that moment, it wasnt just a passing thru. It was exactly who she was. She was not a flap that flip flopped. Oh no no no. God I remember looking into her eyes and feeling a "suck in" of my god core. In getting to know her, I realized what a spiritual being she was. (talking to her, you would know how spiritual she was) She wasnt a mix of genders. She was gendered, yet a fuller expression of what gender is, without having to claim one form or another. (I revisit my memory of her every now and then. She is one of my most favorite beings I have encountered this time on this earth.)

I immediately gravitated to her and she gravitated to me when we first met. We understood each other before we said a word. I was "with" someone at the time and felt very uncomfortable with the connection I had with her. I was also uncomfortable because she was obviously femme. I could not believe I was drawn to a feminine spirit, male/female. But had I not been with someone, I would have followed through with this connection. But because I was, I did not put myself in places where I would be near her. We kept a communication, tho distant. I no longer communicate with her. Life, you know...

I so love the fluidity of gender. I love the depth and magnitude it can be expressed within and beyond its social and genetic and spiritual "containers", which to me is the body,mind and soul, the sacred trilogy of human existance. She was the best expression I have met about this fluidity...

Heh, this just kind reminded me of a fall evening in a small bar on the shores of Superior some years back.

A young blonde women sitting at the bar eventually got up and moved to the stool beside me. I don't remember how she started the convo but she spent the next couple hours with this smiley perplexed goofy expression on her face while she question me about my sex/gender etc. "You're a guy", a moment passes "no, nope... you're definitely female"...then "oh MY gawddd I can't figure you out" (and right, I wasn't feeling like giving her answers).

At first it was a little itchy, but I wasn't offended. She was clearly happily fascinated and enjoyed my gender "presence" very much, though quite forward it was a positive reaction. Besides I was a little bored prior and found her quite nice and fairly entertaining so what's to be all aghast about.

Funny now looking back at the fact that she couldn't figure me was the irony that she sort of did.

Ok, I think I need some more coffee... slept late and I'm not quite awake yet...

Metro

[Soft*Silver]

I give that young lady some gold stars for being so open and comfortable with exploring her own questions about your gender.

I have dated some butches who by appearance, are mistaken for male. I say mistaken because they IDd female, even if they were uncomfortable being female. I wouldnt consider them fluid...at all.

Which brings me to another point...I want to point out, in my opinion, that fluidity isnt about someone who wants to be what gender they arent, or someone who is unhappy with their gender. Fluidity is really like a river running past. You stand in the river and you are always you but the flow of the water, even tho it is always water, is never the same. But is always the same. Thats how I see fluidity....

I am glad you had that experience with the young blonde..you made me smile as I visualized it...

[Jett]

Thanks for your story softness, your friend sounds wonderful, and it's good to hear words of such understanding. I've often found a lot of resistance to the idea that one can be gender fluid, and read a lot of balking response in different places to the sheer idea of it.

I'll admit that the idea was hard for me to absorb because I spent a lot of energy and life trying to fit into ready made "categories", each time just trying to have something concrete.

But the ebb and flow is something I've experienced since I can remember and made my attempts at outward self "identification" rocky at best.

You know it's funny, it's really so simple inwardly, all of it natural, flows seamlessly and compatible but when you try to express it in current language it sounds oppositional and complex... it's not really. Perhaps that's why some peeps are so resistant to the idea of it. I've found people who know me personally seem to totally get it better, in the words of a friend "it's palpable".

Anyway thanks, though I feel happy and content in who I am I hesitated in putting this thread up b/c of the potential misunderstandings but you've made me feel better on it.

Metro
(and thanks for pointing out it's about gender and not sexual orientation, females of the femme persuasion have always been my cup o' tea, it's not about that)

[Apocalipstic]

There seem to be so many expectations of how certain genders and/or orientations should be. Usually outward appearance being the driving force, when really what we look like might have nothing to do with what is inside.

In an on line community people say all sorts of this, some right, some not. I am having to learn to block a good amount of it out because it is just an opinion.

I see myself as pretty fluid. There are times I have male energy, sometimes female...I am constantly changing and flowing...which is why I really like the term "fluid".

Great thread Metropolis!

[Jett]

Originally Posted by softness

Actually, Metro, I have seen you as fluid from the beginning, tho I said nothing because labels are for those who own the body, not the one who sees the body. But from the first posting, I read you as fluid.

I think I can See with ease because of my own fluidity. I am comfortable not having a rock solid orientation to stand on. I use the term lesbian because it is the closest I can come to it, but those who know me, like your friends say about you and your gender, know the flow of the river of my orientation.


and yes, inwardly its so simple but our language and our social boundaries do not permit it verbally expressed without genuine effort and creativity. Its why I follow you around, you know. I feel like I dont have to put forth such an effort. Sometimes I just simply read you silently so that I can feel your energy. You make me feel less alone sometimes. Even tho its orientation in my regard and gender in yours. I can feel the rock of your waves and it soothes me.

I am SO glad you started this thread...

for the record, just because someone says it isnt real, doesnt make it unreal. Just because someone calls it something else, doesnt make it what its said to be. Words are not vaporizers. Unless you let them be...

Oop... see... now I'm going to have to report you for stalking... (no actually that's quite flattering).

I think it was something very hard to "see" in myself, though I've been aware of the fluidity for years, I was used to it, it was just "me". But my personal struggles with labels/identities really made me have to take a closer look at it... when I did my struggles with those things made sense.

Like you, I am very comfortable with it, I couldn't always say that...

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

There seem to be so many expectations of how certain genders and/or orientations should be. Usually outward appearance being the driving force, when really what we look like might have nothing to do with what is inside.

In an on line community people say all sorts of this, some right, some not. I am having to learn to block a good amount of it out because it is just an opinion.

I see myself as pretty fluid. There are times I have male energy, sometimes female...I am constantly changing and flowing...which is why I really like the term "fluid".

Great thread Metropolis!

Yeah I think it bothers some people if others aren't in line with "their" particular idea of sex, gender, identity etc. or even worse if you aren't static. Like it's some kind of affront to them, if not that I don't know why some seem to peep about it so much.

I have to block a lot of it out too, and then there's the days I can't keep my trap shut... heh.

And ty Apoc...

Metro

[Apocalipstic]

It freaks me out that because my outward appearance is feminine, I am assumed to be "the girl" in every single aspect of my life.

I don't see ID or gender as that one dimensional. Apoc has on a dress, so she must be a Betty Crocker, muffin baking, bottom, stay at home mom (Dog Forbid.) Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I have never wanted that....and I am not even going to go into how the kids might turn out.

Even in my earliest days of sexual discovery and reading books with dirty parts, I saw myself as the Dude.

When my cousins and sister were collecting things in their "hope chests" and planning their weddings at age 9, I knew I would never be like them. I saw myself in neutral terms mostly, or like my sister was a girl and I was a boy, but not a regular boy....a quiet precocious boy who read and drew and listened to music. A weird girl/boy caught in a very gendered Southern Baptist hell.

[Soft*Silver]

Actually, Metro, I have seen you as fluid from the beginning, tho I said nothing because labels are for those who own the body, not the one who sees the body. But from the first posting, I read you as fluid.

I think I can See with ease because of my own fluidity. I am comfortable not having a rock solid orientation to stand on. I use the term lesbian because it is the closest I can come to it, but those who know me, like your friends say about you and your gender, know the flow of the river of my orientation.


and yes, inwardly its so simple but our language and our social boundaries do not permit it verbally expressed without genuine effort and creativity. Its why I follow you around, you know. I feel like I dont have to put forth such an effort. Sometimes I just simply read you silently so that I can feel your energy. You make me feel less alone sometimes. Even tho its orientation in my regard and gender in yours. I can feel the rock of your waves and it soothes me.

I am SO glad you started this thread...

for the record, just because someone says it isnt real, doesnt make it unreal. Just because someone calls it something else, doesnt make it what its said to be. Words are not vaporizers. Unless you let them be...

[lisa93]

someone who identifies with more than 1 gender.