"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


-----------------

Thoughts?

I love good manners!

But yes, I would rather be paid as an equal in the work place over someone buying me dinner I can afford and expecting something in return. I would rather be the one paying and expecting .

Chivalry to me brings up Medieval courtly expectations of a knight in shining armor rescuing a poor defenseless maiden sort of thing.

[Hack]

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Hack

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

[always2late]

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

I thought the article was really conducive to the discussion about what constitutes *masculinity* in today's society.

The article did happen to be from Feministing.

Do I like/appreciate/cherish certain behaviours from my husband? Yes.

I think, though, when others start instilling (parents, school authorities, etc.) what it is to BE masculine or a man, that is where trouble may begin--when people dictate what it is to be truly masculine, a butch ... etc. that's where I take an issue (same difference for what constitutes femininity for me).

I felt badly for the students in that article to have a teacher tell them what it is to be a *proper* man or woman--people on this site know that that can be very tricky and even damaging.

Interesting to think about and good thread.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

[Apocalipstic]

Like I said, I love good manners
and if someone wants to buy me lunch I am honored.

Now, if the same person refuses under any circumstance for me to buy them lunch, then it is a problem. My G/F now for example lost her job of many years with General Motors and I am paying the bills. If she had a problem with that and thought it was less masculine somehow, it would make an already stressful situation way worse.

I think "masculinity" or what people expect to be masculine can be so different from person to person. What keep coming up for me in this discussion is the expectation that the man/Butch not be the sensitive one.

I think over the course of my life, I have expected Butches to be as unemotional, un-sensitive (not insensivive) and unromantic as I am, and this expectation has hurt some feelings along the way. Does that make sense?

Like when I have been single and dating and made it crystal clear (I thought) that I was just messing around with no strings attached and then being told "but Butches have feelings too and I just thought you were playing hard to get" .....

Or with every single Butch I have dated (some of them trans now) saying how unromantic I am.

I am learning that we can't expect people to have certain behaviors based on how they look.

[Apocalipstic]

But again, if we are talking manners, yes, lovely manners are wonderful.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Hack

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

Thanks for clarifying; I realized when I finished my post maybe it wasn't directed as a response to the article. Oh, and I agree manners can and should be taught at home--I also think they can be taught at school too (as in respect for all people), but I would hate for them to be taught in way like...boys do this...and girls do this kinda way. I still remember being told how a lady sits and what she does and doesn't do...it felt very rigid and even shaming at certain points.

-----------
Getting back to the OP's question of what constitutes masculinity for me?
I still can't definitively answer that--but I know it when I feel it and it's hot and works for me.

It is a combination of behaviour and appearance...but I can't list the exact attributes. Do I feel the protector/protected thing (now)? Yes, I do but I didn't feel that with my male partners in the past; interestingly enough, I felt I was the stronger one in the relationship. I also feel more comfortable with being the (lucky) recipient of certain behaviours than I ever have before. Weird, eh?

I'll think on it some more.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Thanks for clarifying; I realized when I finished my post maybe it wasn't directed as a response to the article. Oh, and I agree manners can and should be taught at home--I also think they can be taught at school too (as in respect for all people), but I would hate for them to be taught in way like...boys do this...and girls do this kinda way. I still remember being told how a lady sits and what she does and doesn't do...it felt very rigid and even shaming at certain points.


Getting back to the OP's question of what constitutes masculinity for me?
I still can't definitively answer that--but I know it when I feel it and it's hot and works for me.

It is a combination of behaviour and appearance...but I can't list the exact attributes. Do I feel the protector/protected thing (now)? Yes, I do but I didn't feel that with my male partners in the past; interestingly enough, I felt I was the stronger one in the relationship. I also feel more comfortable with being the (lucky) recipient of certain behaviours than I ever have before. Weird, eh?

I'll think on it some more.

I think you put a finger on my problem....the whole "a lady acts this or that way" and yes I found it very shaming growing up.

[Hack]

Many women tell me I have masculine energy, masculine behaviors, masculine traits.

I don't argue. I embrace that about myself. That's me, you know?

In fact, everything society associates with feminine is a completely foreign thing to me. Some of my straight guy friends will come to me to explain women to them, and I say to them, "I have no idea, man. I am as mystified as you sometimes." But that's all part of the allure to me...I like being mystified.

Jake

[AtLast]

What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other. I just don't accept a male-female dichotomy and am so tired of traditional, patriarchal ideas of what is masculine or male... and female or feminine.

Butch as continually defined in the masculine is very limiting and quite gender ignorant to me. Constraining as well and a perpetuation of sexist ideology. If we are going to move beyond the binary, we need to stop this crap.

[Corkey]

Some people are perfectly happy just the way they are, without anyone else trying to figure out who they are.
Allowing people to be who they are is what living in harmony with others is about.
Folks don't get to decide for others who and how they ID, what makes them tick or how they wear their britches.
Be yourself, and have the common courtesy to let others do the same.
This dichotomy of gender isn't who I am nor how I live my life. I am a Human Being, not a label!
My .02 on this worn out subject.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other. I just don't accept a male-female dichotomy and am so tired of traditional, patriarchal ideas of what is masculine or male... and female or feminine.

Butch as continually defined in the masculine is very limiting and quite gender ignorant to me. Constraining as well and a perpetuation of sexist ideology. If we are going to move beyond the binary, we need to stop this crap.

I accept the fact that the binary doesn't work, for some, however, it works for me, and I find that I have a great deal of freedom in my masculinity. I don't find it to be a rigid construct, that dictates what I do or don't do, but one that I and other masculine people are shaping, minute by minute, day by day, with the choices that we make in our lives.

I embrace ways of being which are considered "traditional," for males, yet I am also sensitive, and capable of talking about my feelings. Discussing my feelings, was not something that came naturally to me, I worked very hard for many years to learn how to communicate with people, and even more years and hard work to learn how to identify and express my feelings.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

I accept the fact that the binary doesn't work, for some, however, it works for me, and I find that I have a great deal of freedom in my masculinity. I don't find it to be a rigid construct, that dictates what I do or don't do, but one that I and other masculine people are shaping, minute by minute, day by day, with the choices that we make in our lives.

I embrace ways of being which are considered "traditional," for males, yet I am also sensitive, and capable of talking about my feelings. Discussing my feelings, was not something that came naturally to me, I worked very hard for many years to learn how to communicate with people, and even more years and hard work to learn how to identify and express my feelings.

What you are saying here is not at all like what is so often perpetuated about the masculine as traditional. You are able to express feelings and it sounds like, that even though this took some work, you value this.

I can get behind shaping new dimensions of masculinity, but when I read stereotypic, traditional patriarchal foundations of masculine being viewed as desirable, I just can't see much of a difference between old and new in terms of gender identification.

I certainly do understand feeling more free with integrating what is known about gender today. Actually, it is exactly this that adds to my own comfort in being a butch woman.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other. I just don't accept a male-female dichotomy and am so tired of traditional, patriarchal ideas of what is masculine or male... and female or feminine.

Butch as continually defined in the masculine is very limiting and quite gender ignorant to me. Constraining as well and a perpetuation of sexist ideology. If we are going to move beyond the binary, we need to stop this crap.

I'm gonna be a little difficult here for a minute (shocking, I know).

And I'm not 'attacking' you...I'm gonna use the pronoun 'you', because you (personally) brought it up, but I'm also using 'you' in the general sense, because I've seen this same thing said a lot.

Ok, so you say, you don't accept the dichotomy of male-female. I get that.

However, then you also say, "What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other."

Ok, so here's where I'm gonna be difficult.

If there's no dichotomy, masculine wouldn't be rooted in feminine, and technically, One could have one without the other. I mean, if there's no dichotomy, either masculine or feminine could exist without the other or with another. We're so limited in language here, because we're not given a 'third option'. We're only given masculine/feminine. But, if we're NOT thinking in a dichotomy, then we're speaking in a spectrum (right?), ergo, One doesn't NEED one to have the other. Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

Also, I think a lot of 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are born out of white, (predominately middle class), Western thinking. This was briefly touched on in the FIB butches thread on the other site.

On another note, while I revel in certain aspects of masculinity and femininity, I think when either are used as 'rules' to control people, I'm not down with that.


Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'm gonna be a little difficult here for a minute (shocking, I know).

And I'm not 'attacking' you...I'm gonna use the pronoun 'you', because you (personally) brought it up, but I'm also using 'you' in the general sense, because I've seen this same thing said a lot.

Ok, so you say, you don't accept the dichotomy of male-female. I get that.

However, then you also say, "What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other."

Ok, so here's where I'm gonna be difficult.

If there's no dichotomy, masculine wouldn't be rooted in feminine, and technically, One could have one without the other. I mean, if there's no dichotomy, either masculine or feminine could exist without the other or with another. We're so limited in language here, because we're not given a 'third option'. We're only given masculine/feminine. But, if we're NOT thinking in a dichotomy, then we're speaking in a spectrum (right?), ergo, One doesn't NEED one to have the other. Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

Also, I think a lot of 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are born out of white, (predominately middle class), Western thinking. This was briefly touched on in the FIB butches thread on the other site.

On another note, while I revel in certain aspects of masculinity and femininity, I think when either are used as 'rules' to control people, I'm not down with that.


Dylan

I see your point here. I think my (just being personal, here) integration with masculinity & femininity is difficult for me to disconnect on many levels due to how i put it together for myself on a spiritual level (I know, eye-roll). But, yes, I see how my statement doesn't mesh the whole of all of this.

And I have had some more thoughts about this because what I really was reacting to is something I often do- when I see gender myths perpetuated by our own. I think I am also skewed in my thinking sometimes due to raising a male child as a masculine female in this society. A male child that did not fit well in the traditional sense of masculinity in this culture (the reverse of myself).

As I have said before, I am grateful for gender theories being examined more fully within my lifetime, but, I also see a lot of male-privilege continuing to be at the apex of gender identification and traditional social values.

There is something amiss with how someone that is socialized as female (and all of the negative that goes along with this in US culture) perceives what it is to be socialized as male, or be male. The US really has a gender-complex, I believe. Look at how many of us (butch, femme, and everyone one else) have some very significant grief about how we were not viewed positively because of the gender binary. On top of this, I think that many of us equate looking male (or more masculine) as being the same thing as how men are socialized in our society as men.. And this just isn't true. We do look at male socialization from a female socialized point of reference.

I have listened to conversations about this between my son (41 year old man) and TG men and had more than one light-bulb moment. Neither knows the differences, really. What they know are projections stemming from being socialized as male or female, just like everyone. Both (even with sensitivity and a genuine desire to understand ) assume what it is like to be treated as female or male from birth.. Neither, really knows. I don’t. My kid also doesn’t come from a traditional kind of upbringing, either which plays a part in this. Yes, he was subjected to a lot of the short-man negativity and as a dancer and not interested in traditional male-dominated sports, he took a lot of shit. Didn’t help that he grew up in a small red-neck town, either. Oh, and the fact that for most of his life, he has had a dyke mother wasn’t easy.

I personally find gender theory freeing myself, even as a butch woman. It has given me a lot of comfort and freed me from many internal conflicts.

But, I do get worked-up when I see the queer community continue to buy into things like men don’t know what women want. This isn’t a product of gender, it is a product of gender-role stereotyping and probably for some, a lack of interpersonal communication skills. It is the same for women and a product of socialization in the main (there are other factors that can be biophysiological).

For me, the perpetuation of gender myths (male & female via binary definitions and behavioral expectations) within a time that finally, gender is being viewed outside of the binary is very sad. Especially sad when this comes from the queer community. I really, honestly, wrestle with this. Also, it gets to me when the same myths are applied to femmes. If there is one thing I have learned, it is that femmes come in all types!

Something else that strikes me is that the transmen (and MtF's) in my life that I know well are feminists and academics. So, I don't believe I have a very accurate picture of the full range of transmen.. or MtF's, really. Although, my early experiences with childhood friends differs from this

[Apocalipstic]

I am Femme and I have little idea of what a feeling actually is or what women want.

People are all different and those differences do not always run on gender lines.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

And I don't think that there is anything wrong with this. Especially for us butches who naturally fall into this "style" of the dance. For some butches it is how we "show our love", and how we just simply operate in our relationships, so it is great when one finds a femme who seeks this same "style" of dancing.

I need a partner who seeks/desires this from me (seeks that type of "energy" or "way of being", or "way of relating"), or I would not feel fulfilled in that relationship (I would feel like I wasn't giving something to my partner that I need to give..or something like that!)

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong