"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[Liam]

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

[BullDog]

Thank you so much for your post Snowy! My masculinity does not come from traditional notions of what a man or male is supposed to be since I am neither.

I am a butch who has loved walking girls home from school and carrying their books since the time I could walk, lol. I do enjoy what some call "old school" or "the dance." However, this has nothing to do with any traditional ideas of masculinity or how a butch is supposed to act or be. It is just me. I was this way long before I even knew what butch was.

I love it when femmes and other feminine women embrace their dashes and flairs of masculinity. That's powerful.

I also loved what Apocalipstic had to say about how as a femme she doesn't fit the stereotypes in terms of what women are supposed to think and feel.

To be honest, I think everyone is looking for a partner who is strong (femmes being among the strongest people I have ever known) and kind, no matter what their gender or what gender they are attracted to.

Women can and do fully embrace masculinity. I fit the "dance" just not the stereotypes.

[Dylan]

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Dylan, I agree with you that notions of what is masculine and feminine are culturally based and in Western cultures based on white culture in particular.

Just to be clear, I do think walking girls home from school and carrying their books is a stereotype often associated with masculine courtly or courteous behavior. I just happened to enjoy doing that from a young age.

[Dylan]

Ok, so then, here's where I get completely confused in these conversations

If 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are culturally based, and

If One believes those cultural bases are misogynist, and

If One is going to scoff 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine

Then why are we always talking about it?

I mean, why aren't we all just happy with who we are? And if we are all happy with who we are/however we are...why are we always talking about this?

I don't mean that in a harsh tone, I mean it seriously. I mean, are we trying to redefine it? What is the ideal outcome of (say) this conversation?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here.

I mean, are we talking about the ways these 'traditional' ideas are perpetuated in our community? Because I've seen that happen to both femmes and butches, and that's pretty crappy...but then, on the other hand, if traditional ideas are someone's cuppa, then, I have a choice to participate or excuse myself, right? I mean, some people like all that traditional stuff, and some folks don't like all that traditional stuff, right?

I mean, I don't think someone should base their whole 'worth' on some stupid traditional idea of what is or isn't masculine/feminine...and I DO get a bit riled when I see stuff like, "this is how a butch/femme *should* act"

And I do get a little riled up when I see masculine/feminine being equated to what het men/women do...and that's how 'butches and femmes *should* act'

So, is this what we're talking about in this thread

And Atlast brought up that some of the 'traditional' ideas are based in misogyny...can someone please give me an example, so I'm more clear on exactly what we're talking about there? Because, I DO think *some* (notice the little asterisks, please) notions are rooted more in biological differences than 'traditional sexism' (notice the bunny ears, please). Oh, and I'm not saying that just because they may have originally been rooted in biological differences, they're not sexist in today's society.


I Hope This Post Is Clear, Although, I Have My Doubts,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.

Absolutely, they are culturally based. And unfortunately, in US culture, we have the perpetuation of white male as the ideal and the one with continued privilege.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

I think what always gets to me in these conversations is the acceptance of what has been traditionally equated with both masculine and feminine in US culture, yet, we have this whole new gender perspective at our disposal to break these concepts down. In doing so, it seems like we could free so much of what has oppressed us.

Behaviors like carrying books, opening doors, etc. to me, are just part of a person's internal value system or nature and don't have a thing to do with gender identification really. Not the complex nature of gender that I see many friends dealing with if they are struggling with transition issues. Or, for me as a butch woman.

My perfect world would be one that had more of the two-spirit or ideas formed about gender in other cultures that have not been based upon the binary. But, I am stuck with being in the US and growing up with a very oppressive take on not only gender, but gender roles based upon the binary. And this contamination seems to be seeping through to newer ways of viewing gender from a perspective that does not accept a binary system. Where is the progress?

For the record, I want to apologize for my using crap in my initial post on the thread. it was insensitive. I do get worked-up when I see stereotypes of mascilinity and feminity thrown around. But, I should not have said that.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

Originally Posted by Liam

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

I am not mad at you, Snowy, however I think your questions would be great in another thread. I did not appreciate AtLastHome's comment about crap, and I have addressed that personally, with her. I do disagree with you regarding your statement that traditional went out the window. Its a nice thought, but we are a long ways from achieving that. I think many people have expanded their notion of what masculine is, not everyone has. It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me. I thought this thread was for those, who were. And yes, I think when you refer to characteristics or behaviours that people have used to describe themselves, as stifling, you are definitely putting them down.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I am not mad at you, Snowy, however I think your questions would be great in another thread. I did not appreciate AtLastHome's comment about crap, and I have addressed that personally, with her. I do disagree with you regarding your statement that traditional went out the window. Its a nice thought, but we are a long ways from achieving that. I think many people have expanded their notion of what masculine is, not everyone has. It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me. I thought this thread was for those, who were. And yes, I think when you refer to characteristics or behaviours that people have used to describe themselves, as stifling, you are definitely putting them down.

I must of misread then, cause I swore that this thread was about *discussing* masculinity and traditions.. I believe the OP asked for our thoughts on this, I mean I did not honestly think this was just for traditional type folks..

You assuming I am not into *traditional* masculinity is jumping the gun no? Do you know this for sure? I don't get where you think I am stiffling or putting anyone down, what I was DOING was discussing or rather asking and wondering what is that exactly?

I do think we have evolved from the whole me tarzan you jane theory of us. I dunno maybe I am wrong and you are foreign to the evolved concept (me assuming) I mean really do we want to be stuck in these presumed roles? Curious I really am? Kinda has a scent of misoginy, a lil machismo going on and other stuff..

[BullDog]

Whose "traditions" are you talking about?

[Apocalipstic]

I also did not realize that this thread was just for those who are into traditional roles, I thought it was a questions about how we see it today.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Liam..

Yanno it really bothers me when you say....

"It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me" it makes me cringe when I read it and here is why..

You are assuming, and I wonder if you assume this because I am not the kind of femme who is the little girl, the girly girl, I am that other type of femme, the bossy, toppy, who likes those boys who *bottom* With this may come the assumption that the boy I fuck is not masculine or a real guy because well what real guy wants to be fucked, guys fuck not the other way around.

I feel like I have to defend myself to my southern father who assumes because I am an assertive woman no *gentle* type is going to look my way.. I am being honest your post to me felt a bit like you asserting your masculinity on me.. I don't respond well to chest thumpers and I wanted to be honest with you.

I hope that is not the case and this is not what I am really reading


I can't imagine how many femmes refrain from posting, who will back down from oppresive shit like this, I just can't never have never will...

Do you see how this can be the real silencing, oppressing tool??

[weatherboi]

When I read the OP I felt they were asking for a discussion about what is deemed "Traditional" masculinity. I didnt think this was a thread to discuss "what is a real man" thread, so I am going to go with the "it is a discussion" theory. I also remember reading an invitation to femmes to assert their opinions!!!!

When I hear "Traditional" masculinity, my mind screams role segregation. Segregation of education, housework, profession, decision making, childcare/ child education. I don't equate "Traditional" masculinity to opening doors, holding out chairs, blah, blah and etc. I DON'T equate masculinity with Topping/bottoming or D/s roles. IMO those acts are my "get to's" in any relationship I am participating in not gender defining to me as a guy.

Breaking down masculinity in todays society would entail looking at the impact of gender on a global scale not on an individual scale. How gender relationships connect institutionally and create global gender order/priviledge with in globally large communities(YES) and large buisness corporations (YES) that act as large communities. I would think it would be like breaking down and understanding any other hierarchy system or systemic priviledge pattern.

[Liam]

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

I think the Catholic Church started the male traditions thing to keep control of the church in the hands of males.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Liam

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

Your "evolved" idea of masculinity is not at all foreign to me. My notion of traditional masculinity has nothing to do with Tarzan or Jane. I don't think you are less anything, in being who you are. I don't feel tied into a boxed gender role, that must be your perception. Once again, great questions.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Martina

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

Martina, I wasn't suggesting that anyone leave the thread. I thought that the questions would be best in another thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

Martina, I wasn't suggesting that anyone leave the thread. I thought that the questions would be best in another thread.

What is the traditional lined example of what this thread is about..

Once again I thought it was a discussion on it, and other forms...

I thought we were discussing how to move away or not from those constricting forms..