"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is the traditional lined example of what this thread is about..

Once again I thought it was a discussion on it, and other forms...

I thought we were discussing how to move away or not from those constricting forms..

I obviously misunderstood what this thread was about, Snowy. Have fun discussing.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Liam

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

Originally Posted by Martina

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

I felt like the above post was condescending, silencing and for sure an invitation to leave the thread if one doesn't agree with this poster on traditional masculinity.

So yeah Martina, I feel ya.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I obviously misunderstood what this thread was about, Snowy. Have fun discussing.

Would of been cool having a dialogue with you, you answering my questions, discussing ideals..

such is life eh?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Martina

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

Which is one reason I left the dash site. Opinions are great! Slap downs, not so much.
Unsubscribing

[The_Lady_Snow]

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

Does Traditional Family equate Nuclear Family models or are we talking about my Papa and his machismo?

Traditional is very subjective.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

When I think of traditional masculinity I think of my dad. For the most part he fit the bill. Was the sole breadwinner of the household, your typical white collar dad. My mom did not work until my sis and I were teens. He rarely showed any emotion except anger. He rarely did hugs, watched sports a lot and didn't cook or do any of the housework.
That was the role model for men I was given. By my standards today I don't think it's all that. I think there are lots of ways it can be done better.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

When I think of traditional masculinity I think of my dad. For the most part he fit the bill. Was the sole breadwinner of the household, your typical white collar dad. My mom did not work until my sis and I were teens. He rarely showed any emotion except anger. He rarely did hugs, watched sports a lot and didn't cook or do any of the housework.
That was the role model for men I was given. By my standards today I don't think it's all that. I think there are lots of ways it can be done better.

How does this fit you, or does it even fit your way of how you are masculine? Do you feel you have evolved from this example?

Am I being to intrusive?

[always2late]

Can't we all just get along?

I am the OP...and in the interest of clarification...the intention of the thread is this:

I had a discussion with my father and, as stated earlier in the thread, I agree with some of his ideas of "masculinity" and disagree with others. This thread was started for the purpose of curiosity. I wanted to know others' opinions on what their idea of "traditional" masculinity is...and how that does, or does not fit into their lives. I wanted opinion, discussion, dialogue, etc...from the entire community. I originally threw the question out to the butch/ftm members of our community...but then went back and amended the original post. Obviously, we femmes also have a place in this discussion as to how our idea, or society's idea of "masculinity" does, or does not fit into our lives as well.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

I see your points and I see Liam's, too. It figures.... I analyze the hell out of so much. And get caught up in the abstract often.

The new femme thread that takes a look at some of these issues is really helping me. There are a multitude of stereotypes about all of us, including our trans members. And to me, it just ends up being a perpetuation of the binary for all of us. Makes me crazy! There are times, I just want to live on an island with my dog and cats.. just us!

I'm thinking, however, about what Liam is talking about in terms of why we (me included) have the negative attachments to some of the traditional gender and role stereotypes. Some of these are not negative attributes at all, until we assign negative feelings to them which usually (for me, anyway) come up due to things that I have experienced or seen someone I care about experience.

This discussion got me thinking about my brother's early death (age 47) who as a male in this culture (along with specific ethnic ideas of what males/masculinity should be), who was an alcoholic and would not seek treatment based upon many stereotypes of what masculine or being male means in this culture. Now, he also was born in 1946, a teen in the 50's, was the only son in a family that viewed passing on our name as only legitimate through males. His drinking was not recognized as anything but what men do for a very long time (the denial was very strong down the patriarchal line). And to seek help for alcoholism (wasn't called that- he became a problem drinker when he passed the teen years). Because we lived in a small town and he was a well known business person involved in the community, he wouldn't dare go to AA. He was a hunter and did all the man-guy stuff, including womanizing. You know, it was the booze, not him, really. And hey, a man that can drink, is a man's man.

In the end, he did not take responsibility for his addiction and actions and allowed all of this traditional male behavior nonsense to kill him. I make no excuses for his not dealing with his problems. However, I can see how gender stereotypes can tip the balance with these kinds of things. It wasn't manly to admit you had any kind of problem with anything and do something about it. Especially if treatment was medical or involved therapy or even self-help programs such as the 12-step programs.

On the other hand, look at what our society does to the female alcoholic. Ever hear, nothin' worse than a woman drunk? Women are so sloppy when they drink too much. She's a bad mother because she is an alcoholic. I don’t care to be around anyone that is drunk, woman or man! My brother had a child and was a single parent, but no one ever said anything about his inability to parent effectively due to his drinking. In fact, he was praised for being a single parent, yet, I took his child away from him and drove him places many times and just brought him to my house because I didn't want him to drive with the kid while he was drinking, or just plain drunk.

Probably rambling..... I just want a new set of gender roles that align with our part of a time when we have so much more to work with and build a more healthy world concerning gender identity and behavior. Yes, I am ideological…. I want us to leave something behind that kicks these stereotypes to the curb!!!

The link to the Fierce femme Thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1126

[Dylan]

So, Snow, if some people LIKE traditional roles of masculinity and femininity in their relationships then they're neanderthals who stifle others, because they haven't evolved yet?

Am I reading you correctly?,
Dylan

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

How does this fit you, or does it even fit your way of how you are masculine? Do you feel you have evolved from this example?

Am I being to intrusive?

I don't feel like these are intrusive questions. As I said before, my dad was my main role model for traditional masculinity along with my uncles. Growing up my dad I clashed a lot, add to the fact he had mental and physical issues which went mostly undiagnosed it made for a rocky unbringing. In a nutshell it wasn't so great. But for all that I loved him.
I never saw him cry once. He was emotionally stagnated in someways but I believe it was typical for the men of his generation. He was a bigot and a yeller.I believe I took away from my unbringing things that work for me. My father was a strong presence in my life and as the head of our family, the provider. I feel I have quality as the head of my family as well. I like to be the rock for my family. I know I get that from my dad. He had a strong personality and was a natural born leader. Those things fit me.
I believe I took some good qualities from my dad and thankfully left the rest.......I only wish I had a few of his cool old cardigans and ties. Oh and his perfectly organized shoe shine kit with the wing tips he wore!

[Linus]

//Little techie beanie on

Originally Posted by Martina

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

And you know why they did? Because someone reported. I have yet to see a report on this thread. Is there an issue that you think is something a mod or admin need to address? Push the button. However, I have this feeling that this can be sorted amongst yourselves like adults and that a mod doesn't need to come in here

//Little techie beanie off.




On another note: crying. I have discovered why some men don't cry. It's not for a lack of trying but because of a physical limitation to. Prior to being on T, I would tear-up and nearly be sobbing at SPCA commercials. Today, nothing. I can't even try to cry if I wanted to. In general, many of the "swing emotions" seemed dull compared to before T. So in some cases the lack of crying may not be an emotional issue but rather a physical limitation of T (I'm not unique in this, that I can attest to).

Something to add into consideration as a whole when considering that someone might be "emotionally stagnate".

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

So, Snow, if some people LIKE traditional roles of masculinity and femininity in their relationships then they're neanderthals who stifle others, because they haven't evolved yet?

Am I reading you correctly?,
Dylan

Well Reverend since you asked so nicely...

I have felt this way when attempted to be shoved down my throat, or somehow I am less than femme because I do not accept these roles that are not part of who *I* am.. So yes when it came down to it, I have said hey, knock it out with your caveman ways and stop stifling me... If you don't like how I am and how I like things in my world..

Step off..

That has been my experience and how I deal with it...

*I* don't like being confined make sense?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Well Reverend since you asked so nicely...

I have felt this way when attempted to be shoved down my throat, or somehow I am less than femme because I do not accept these roles that are not part of who *I* am.. So yes when it came down to it, I have said hey, knock it out with your caveman ways and stop stifling me... If you don't like how I am and how I like things in my world..

Step off..

That has been my experience and how I deal with it...

*I* don't like being confined make sense?

Yeah, I get what you're saying...about people putting their ideas of "What is Feminine/Masculine" on you (personally)

But let's say, I'm ovah here livin' Mahhh Life with Mahhh Woman, and we stick to traditional roles of masculine/feminine...and we're both quite happy doin' so...livin' in bliss

Does that make me a knuckle-draggin' Neanderthal? Does it make Mahhh Woman an Edith Bunker who "just can't think for herself"?

I mean, yeah, I think we've ALL dated that one (or two or three) random person who has some ideas of masculine/feminine that don't jive with our own ideas, and I'm sure we've all felt limited/stifled/put upon in those situations where we're told we're not butch/femme enough for ThatPerson.

But in this particular conversation, I didn't see anyone say anything about you (personally) aside from Liam saying something that maybe you don't partner with those people who are into (what's deemed) "traditional" masculinity. I mean, I kinda get the same idea from all of your posts. If it's not your cuppa, then it's not your cuppa. If it is your cuppa, then it is. But based on your posts (throughout the years), I too have gotten the sense that you don't live your life following 'traditional' ideas of masculinity/femininity. I mean, you've said that a number of times in this thread, no? Am I misreading you? I didn't see where anyone said that's a bad thing...it just is what it is.

But (again) if me and mine wanna have at all the "traditional" stuff, does that make us cave people who don't have a working neuron in our brains?


Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am not talking about you, or him or ALLLLLLLLLLL peoples.. What I am talking about is the people who do act like this, who do try to girly me up more, who call me a pet name, who are uncomfortable with me and my strength, who super impose their traditional bullshit on me so that *they* can thump their chests....

It's out there it exists...

I guess I thought we were discussing in this thread hence my experiences put out there.

Maybe I misread....

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am not talking about you, or him or ALLLLLLLLLLL peoples.. What I am talking about is the people who do act like this, who do try to girly me up more, who call me a pet name, who are uncomfortable with me and my strength, who super impose their traditional bullshit on me so that *they* can thump their chests....

It's out there it exists...

I guess I thought we were discussing in this thread hence my experiences put out there.

Maybe I misread....

please go vacuum and cook dinner wearing fuzzy pink slippers, Schmoopy.

See? That is a reason for you to smack me.

I love cooking and vacuuming wearing fuzzy pink slippers.

You may make this face but it's cool with you.

smooches

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

//


On another note: crying. I have discovered why some men don't cry. It's not for a lack of trying but because of a physical limitation to. Prior to being on T, I would tear-up and nearly be sobbing at SPCA commercials. Today, nothing. I can't even try to cry if I wanted to. In general, many of the "swing emotions" seemed dull compared to before T. So in some cases the lack of crying may not be an emotional issue but rather a physical limitation of T (I'm not unique in this, that I can attest to).

Something to add into consideration as a whole when considering that someone might be "emotionally stagnate".

This is really interesting to me and I have heard this from friends on T. I have no knowledge concerning any studies about this, however.

The men in my family did cry. Not as much as the women, but, there just wasn't the same stigma attached to men emoting or crying in my ethnic and cultural background. Although, when my dad and brother were in the company of WASP men, I remember thinking they had tuirned into aliens. I'm sure ethnic/cultural perspectives influenced things.

I'm wondering about any cross-ethnic/racial/cultural studies about this? Ones that look at biophysiological aspects between racial/ethnic traits and crying concerning men? Probably for another thread... Just curious if you or anyone else has any info about the physiological structures here across cultures.

Something else that strikes me is the pervasive attachment in our culture that equates the ability to emote with crying. Seems like this is a pretty narrow view as people demonstrate emotions in varied ways no matter what gender they are. And many women (of all butch consellations and well as femmes), have problems with crying.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

This is really interesting to me and I have heard this from friends on T. I have no knowledge concerning any studies about this, however.

The men in my family did cry. Not as much as the women, but, there just wasn't the same stigma attached to men emoting or crying in my ethnic and cultural background. Although, when my dad and brother were in the company of WASP men, I remember thinking they had tuirned into aliens. I'm sure ethnic/cultural perspectives influenced things.

I'm wondering about any cross-ethnic/racial/cultural studies about this? Ones that look at biophysiological aspects between racial/ethnic traits and crying concerning men? Probably for another thread... Just curious if you or anyone else has any info about the physiological structures here across cultures.

Something else that strikes me is the pervasive attachment in our culture that equates the ability to emote with crying. Seems like this is a pretty narrow view as people demonstrate emotions in varied ways no matter what gender they are. And many women (of all butch consellations and well as femmes), have problems with crying.

I haven't seen any physiological studies but in a truly non-scientific manner, in my trans group, when I attended there was a huge spectrum of guys (from all sorts of races, cultures, etc.) and those that were on T seemed to uniformly state the same thing: crying became near impossible, even if one wanted to. Not because of stigma but rather because of T.

I think if they could do more studies on transguys on these kinds of issues, I think it would highlight/spotlight the same issues for non-trans individuals and identify things that are truly culture/societal versus physical. (nature vs. nuture)

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am not talking about you, or him or ALLLLLLLLLLL peoples.. What I am talking about is the people who do act like this, who do try to girly me up more, who call me a pet name, who are uncomfortable with me and my strength, who super impose their traditional bullshit on me so that *they* can thump their chests....

It's out there it exists...

I guess I thought we were discussing in this thread hence my experiences put out there.

Maybe I misread....

Well, yeah, I totally agree with you from a personal perspective.

I'm sure just about anyone would agree with you from a personal perspective that whenver One is subjected to Another's impositions, One is not going to be too happy unless One agrees with Another's stance.

I mean, I certainly didn't like the times I've dated someone who had ideas that didn't coincide with my own on "This is what a butch does, This is what a femme does". Honestly (without trying to sound alarmist), I think/wonder if some people sometimes use these statements as 'weapons' (term used loosely). I think they can be used hurtfully. I also think/wonder if some people don't use these ideas as a means to actually break off the relationship without actually having to be adult and just break it off...you know what I'm sayin'? Now, I'm not saying that's an 'all the time/every time' kind of thing, but I am saying, I do think it happens. But then sometimes, "That's why they call it dating", yanno?


Dylan