Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I don't think people outside the group to whom the slur is used get to 'decide' if the term is offensive or not or when it's considered offensive. If One has never belonged to the group in question, than how would One have any point of reference as to it's usage/context/etc?

I also think there's a big difference between the people of the group using the term and people outside the group using the word.


Dylan

I think that this is a key point. I can choose to reclaim the word fat, because I am. But if those who aren't use it...it feels offensive. I'm also aware that it's a painful word for several people that I care a great deal about. I would never use it to them.

Intent and context are also critical. Almost any word can be used in a way that hurts or a way that heals...depending upon how it's meant and when and how it's used.

I try to avoid language that is painful or uncomfortable for others. I also know that there will be times when I unintentionally hurt others with my words. It's almost unavoidable without constant censoring of every word...and then communication becomes incredibly cumbersome.

I think sometimes we're using a word we've reclaimed, sometimes we're just spouting off without thinking, sometimes we're just being lazy about our communication, and sometimes it's that icky side of human nature that likes to jab at the weakest spot on others. The words used may be the same....but those all feel different to me.

[Gayla]

Thinking about this from the standpoint of reclaiming language and using various words in context.

For me, there are words that I use in reference to myself that I know other people find offensive. As someone else mentioned, the girls I work with used to get upset when I called myself a duke or queer because they've always seen those as bad words. I use them because they are the most relevant to me and most of them now use them when talking about me, "My dyke friend at work says it's ok for me to go to the parade as long as I don't cringe at the queer boys in leather."

I know a number of people who don't like most of the words I use. I've lost count of the number of people who think "butch" is an insult. As a matter of respect, I don't use those words when talking about them but I'm not going to use different words to describe me just because I'm around them. My friend J is a lesbian. Not a duke and not butch and really not queer. So I would never refer to her as any of those things bit it doesn't mean that I have to stop calling myself a dyke when I'm around her.

[Gayla]

Sorry about the typos. Posting from my phone and it thinks dyke=duke.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

technicality. you are both right.

genital mutilation


–noun any type of cutting or removal of all or some of the genital organs, esp. excision of the clitoris.

oh for fuck's sake............

There is no technicality...........cutting off the clit in NO WAY relates to cutting off the foreskin...................



-------------
I am again going to question authority........who within the group gets to decide what is 'appropriate'. If I removed from my vocabulary all words that offended someone........hell I could not call myself a 'big ole bull dagger/dyke'.... or queer or a fag or any number of words that are offensive to many segments of the greater LGBTQQI community............crap I have to think about it to get all the damn letters right ...........

I was around when 'Queer Nation' started..........laughin..........all those rich gay white assimilationist men and women had a big ole hissy fit......

I am left with wondering what words I can and cannot use on this website based on offense taken by some members of this website...........

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I think that this is a key point. I can choose to reclaim the word fat, because I am. But if those who aren't use it...it feels offensive. I'm also aware that it's a painful word for several people that I care a great deal about. I would never use it to them.

Intent and context are also critical. Almost any word can be used in a way that hurts or a way that heals...depending upon how it's meant and when and how it's used.

I try to avoid language that is painful or uncomfortable for others. I also know that there will be times when I unintentionally hurt others with my words. It's almost unavoidable without constant censoring of every word...and then communication becomes incredibly cumbersome.

I think sometimes we're using a word we've reclaimed, sometimes we're just spouting off without thinking, sometimes we're just being lazy about our communication, and sometimes it's that icky side of human nature that likes to jab at the weakest spot on others. The words used may be the same....but those all feel different to me.

Ok. This makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by gayla

Thinking about this from the standpoint of reclaiming language and using various words in context.

For me, there are words that I use in reference to myself that I know other people find offensive. As someone else mentioned, the girls I work with used to get upset when I called myself a duke or queer because they've always seen those as bad words. I use them because they are the most relevant to me and most of them now use them when talking about me, "My dyke friend at work says it's ok for me to go to the parade as long as I don't cringe at the queer boys in leather."

I know a number of people who don't like most of the words I use. I've lost count of the number of people who think "butch" is an insult. As a matter of respect, I don't use those words when talking about them but I'm not going to use different words to describe me just because I'm around them. My friend J is a lesbian. Not a duke and not butch and really not queer. So I would never refer to her as any of those things bit it doesn't mean that I have to stop calling myself a dyke when I'm around her.

Right. That brings up an interesting point. Say somebody finds the word Butch offensive. Where do we draw the line? Is it enough to just not use it in reference to the person who it offends? Or must we not utter it in earshot of said person?

I am not nit picking, just teasing it apart in my mind.

Like the word breeder. I really dislike that word, but say my friend ID's as a Femme Breeder.

Ummm.

I think my head just exploded, but not really.

Most people don't self identify in ways that are meant to hurt themselves or others so at the end of the day a lot of you are right. Context is huge.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

i don't think language is *just* language.

i admit to being a certified dweeb geek child who was teased every day of my childhood. i was told to just ignore it. sticks and stones and all...

words are powerful. words can hurt and words can make you ten feet tall. the tongue IS mightier than the sword.

of course it's not always about me. it's about dylan.

Well I didn't read past this post yet...

But, I wanted to say that I don't believe that either....However,

If words are used to intentionally hurt someone they FEEL more awful than they are.

We're all subjective. It's all our point of view, how we recieve EVERYTHING. They really are "words" we've chosen to describe something negative that can have positive meaning too. That's kinda what I meant.

I had a therapist once..(don't be mean... LOL) that said ....about me and my brother, living in the same house and how different we seemed to be...she said we each receive the same sintuation differently.

Words CAN ...seem to make you taller or smaller...but....that's your inner self telling you that. It's your experiences that fall in to play. (all this is how *I* believe by the way)...and I believe how we receive things colors everything. We just take it in.

I try hard not to make it about me when things like "words" are said.

I live in a world where Butch is a bad word.

maybe I'm thicker skinned but........... I can't change them. I can help educate them. But educate the world...naw....I'm tired on that. LOL I call it when I see it...that's all I can do.

ooh Rattling again!!


-Mr. Moon

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

Well I didn't read past this post yet...

But, I wanted to say that I don't believe that either....However,

If words are used to intentionally hurt someone they FEEL more awful than they are.

We're all subjective. It's all our point of view, how we recieve EVERYTHING. They really are "words" we've chosen to describe something negative that can have positive meaning too. That's kinda what I meant.

I had a therapist once..(don't be mean... LOL) that said ....about me and my brother, living in the same house and how different we seemed to be...she said we each receive the same sintuation differently.

Words CAN ...seem to make you taller or smaller...but....that's your inner self telling you that. It's your experiences that fall in to play. (all this is how *I* believe by the way)...and I believe how we receive things colors everything. We just take it in.

I try hard not to make it about me when things like "words" are said.

I live in a world where Butch is a bad word.

maybe I'm thicker skinned but........... I can't change them. I can help educate them. But educate the world...naw....I'm tired on that. LOL I call it when I see it...that's all I can do.

ooh Rattling again!!


-Mr. Moon

moonie? did you just call me a hot mess?

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Maybe the change in times has come around in that I don't hate straight people per se? I think *my* derogatory word for straight person is *right wing* these days. Which is probably just as side ways considering that I go to church and am offending all Christians sideways.

Holy crap. Really? straight = right wing? I know a couple of right wing straight folks, but overwhelmingly the straight folks I know are extremely liberal. In some cases more liberal than I am. Interesting.

Originally Posted by betenoire

If an individual doesn't want to reclaim a word but the majority does - really their only "responsibility" it to not use it. If someone doesn't like Queer, nobody is forcing them to say it. You're welcome to articulate why you don't like the word - but don't expect everybody to apologise and never use it again. DO expect everybody to make a mental note of that and not refer to YOU as Queer, however.

And then there's Fat.

I love the word Fat. I think Fat is just about the greatest fucking word in my vocabulary. I'm all about overusing it and desensitizing people to it to the point where when I say it it's clear to the listener that I'm using the same matter-of-fact voice that I would use if I were to mention my freckles.

I think there's a lot of power in taking back Fat.

But, you know, not everybody is on board. And they really don't have to be. I don't get to decide what words make other people uncomfortable.

Sometimes if I reference my Fat it squicks people out. From the co-worker who (so well intentioned) say "Brandy...you are not fat, honey." to lovers who say "I don't think you're fat, I think you're beautiful." (like I fucking can't be both? wtf! I wanna be both!) When that happens the onus is on me to (briefly) explain that I don't think Fat is a bad word, and why, and then move on with my life.

Early in the thread ( just read through most of it ) I was thinking about this "fat" thing.

Years ago, like a couple of decades, I used to LAUGH my ass off if the most hurtful thing a person could say to me was something about being fat. How very sad that in order to insult me they would only be able to pick out the most obvious thing about me. "Hey fat ass, watch it!" Come on, use a little imagination.

After about the age of 12 being called fat rarely ever bothered me.

I have more anxiety wrapped up in "butch" than I ever did in fat, dyke, fag, faggot, queer, snatch eater, fudge-packer, bull-dyke, bulldagger, carpet muncher, mick, bubble-butt, dumbo, cloud, homo, kraut eater, white bread, wonder bread, herm, amazon, wannabe, man, dude, beav, beaver, bitch, whore, slut, commie, fruit, chachi, man-hater, chief, honcho, big man, big fella, battle-axe, skank, shrew, chick... I could go on. But I think you get my point.

While I believe that words can hit as hard as a fist at some point it's a matter of personal responsibility to stand up and say "you know what? I'm not going to allow your ignorance to hurt me any longer" when someone is using these words in an attempt to hurt you. The words in and of themselves? I find them mostly powerless.

It is when we identify so strongly with something that a word has the ability to hurt us. Hence my issue around "butch". Telling that on more than one occasion I've eschewed the term. I have a real love/hate relationship with the word and my identity around it.

Originally Posted by JustJo

I think that this is a key point. I can choose to reclaim the word fat, because I am. But if those who aren't use it...it feels offensive. I'm also aware that it's a painful word for several people that I care a great deal about. I would never use it to them.

Intent and context are also critical. Almost any word can be used in a way that hurts or a way that heals...depending upon how it's meant and when and how it's used.

I try to avoid language that is painful or uncomfortable for others. I also know that there will be times when I unintentionally hurt others with my words. It's almost unavoidable without constant censoring of every word...and then communication becomes incredibly cumbersome.

I think sometimes we're using a word we've reclaimed, sometimes we're just spouting off without thinking, sometimes we're just being lazy about our communication, and sometimes it's that icky side of human nature that likes to jab at the weakest spot on others. The words used may be the same....but those all feel different to me.

Interesting. Who gets to decide who is fat and when it's ok to use "fat"?

What size does a person have to be in order to use it? Size 8? 12? 16?

If someone had been a size 4 for years and suddenly finds themselves a size 10 are they to censor themselves when around people of considerably larger size?

*********
On the OP: to "breed" is to produce offspring, no? According to MW, it is anyway. Also "breeding" is: the result of upbringing or training as shown in behavior and manners; manners, esp. good manners: "You can tell when a person has breeding." Now, we could also get into the elitist stuff surrounding things like that, but I digress.

I understand the arguments about this and that there are individuals who feel this is hurtful to women in general and find it hurtful to them, as individuals. Duly noted.

In looking at the term in the context of the queer rights movement I understood it to stem from a desire to label heteros who "had it easy". Who were physically capable of "breeding" of their own accord. Who had reproductive rights and opportunities that same sex couples did not.

Perhaps I have more progressive (or perhaps less progressive?) hetero friends than most people, but I have at least two couples in my world who refer to themselves as breeders.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Waldo

Interesting. Who gets to decide who is fat and when it's ok to use "fat"?

What size does a person have to be in order to use it? Size 8? 12? 16?

If someone had been a size 4 for years and suddenly finds themselves a size 10 are they to censor themselves when around people of considerably larger size?

Hi Waldo

For me, "fat" is self-identified, just like any other term or description. Some people would feel or be "fat" by their own definition in a size 4, others in a 22 or a 5x or whatever.

I'm not saying anyone needs to censor themselves...I'm saying how I perceive things. If you read my whole post you would see the last line...where I said that these things feel different to me.

There's a huge difference to me between that woman who was always a size 4and is now in a 10 saying "I'm struggling with this; I feel fat and undesirable" and the woman in a size 0 making fat comments to her friends behind my back...generally just loud enough for me to hear. To me, a size 10 is slim, but perhaps not to her. For others, a size 22 feels fabulous. That's their perception, and has nothing to do with me.

Make sense?

[Nat]

breed·er (brdr)
n.
1. A person who breeds animals or plants.
2. An animal kept to produce offspring.
3. Offensive Slang A heterosexual person.
4. A source or cause: social injustice a breeder of revolutions.
5. A breeder reactor.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

It might also be worth checking out the variety of definitions at urbandictionary.com

eg: Breeder is a slang term (either joking or derogatory) used to describe heterosexuals, primarily by homosexuals. It is drawn from the fact that while homosexual sex does not lead to reproduction, heterosexual sex can, with implicit mocking by connotation of animal husbandry.

[SuperFemme]

to breed and breeder are not the same. to me.

mirriam webster on breeder:

Main Entry: breed·er
Pronunciation: \ˈbrē-dər\
Function: noun
Date: 1531
: one that breeds: as a : an animal or plant kept for propagation b : one engaged in the breeding of a specified organism c : a nuclear reactor designed to produce more fissionable material than it uses as fuel —called also breeder reactor



Thank you for understanding that it is hurtful. In turn, duly noted that your progressive friends do not find it hurtful.

Perhaps if I divulged more personal information on how I became pregnant it would help garner more understanding on why being compared to an animal makes me feel like I've been punched in the stomach.

Unfortunately, I'm not ready to do that here.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Waldo

In looking at the term in the context of the queer rights movement I understood it to stem from a desire to label heteros who "had it easy". Who were physically capable of "breeding" of their own accord. Who had reproductive rights and opportunities that same sex couples did not.

Perhaps I have more progressive (or perhaps less progressive?) hetero friends than most people, but I have at least two couples in my world who refer to themselves as breeders.

Hi Waldo

In an attempt to other heteros, there is also a line being drawn about who qualifies as lesbian/gay and who does not. Within our community, for the term "breeder" to be used to refer to straight people in an ugly way, it is not only ugly to straight people, but it is rejecting and erasing of the people within our community who have had kids.

If you have hetero friends who refer to themselves as breeders, they are doing so from a place of hetero privilege. Also, self-referencing using an offensive term is not the same as othering somebody by calling them an ugly term, no?

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Hi Waldo

For me, "fat" is self-identified, just like any other term or description. Some people would feel or be "fat" by their own definition in a size 4, others in a 22 or a 5x or whatever.

I'm not saying anyone needs to censor themselves...I'm saying how I perceive things. If you read my whole post you would see the last line...where I said that these things feel different to me.

There's a huge difference to me between that woman who was always a size 4and is now in a 10 saying "I'm struggling with this; I feel fat and undesirable" and the woman in a size 0 making fat comments to her friends behind my back...generally just loud enough for me to hear. To me, a size 10 is slim, but perhaps not to her. For others, a size 22 feels fabulous. That's their perception, and has nothing to do with me.

Make sense?

Indeed it does make sense. I still stand by my choice to not let an unimaginative dullard's choice of derisive comments to get me down. But I also understand that not everyone feels the same way.

Here's hoping you, or anyone else, finds a day when this is a non-issue.

Originally Posted by Nat

breed·er (brdr)
n.
1. A person who breeds animals or plants.
2. An animal kept to produce offspring.
3. Offensive Slang A heterosexual person.
4. A source or cause: social injustice a breeder of revolutions.
5. A breeder reactor.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

It might also be worth checking out the variety of definitions at urbandictionary.com

eg: Breeder is a slang term (either joking or derogatory) used to describe heterosexuals, primarily by homosexuals. It is drawn from the fact that while homosexual sex does not lead to reproduction, heterosexual sex can, with implicit mocking by connotation of animal husbandry.

I am, actually, aware of the dictionary definition of breed, bred, breeder and breeding. Funny how they are all related and yet have slightly different takes.

And I certainly hope that we, as a culture, have not reached the point where we are relying on UrbanDictionary.com to definitively understand this or any other term.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

to breed and breeder are not the same. to me.

mirriam webster on breeder:

Main Entry: breed·er
Pronunciation: \ˈbrē-dər\
Function: noun
Date: 1531
: one that breeds: as a : an animal or plant kept for propagation b : one engaged in the breeding of a specified organism c : a nuclear reactor designed to produce more fissionable material than it uses as fuel —called also breeder reactor

Thank you for understanding that it is hurtful. In turn, duly noted that your progressive friends do not find it hurtful.

Perhaps if I divulged more personal information on how I became pregnant it would help garner more understanding on why being compared to an animal makes me feel like I've been punched in the stomach.

Unfortunately, I'm not ready to do that here.

SF, I don't think additional information is warranted in the least. I don't need to understand your experience to sympathize with why you, or anyone else, feel it's offensive. I accept it.

If the first definition is "one that breeds", then by logic one would check out the definition of "breed", no? They aren't the same, but the words and their definitions are related, obviously. But like many terms in our modern world they are used in a variety of ways. Not always as they were intended.

[Zimmeh]

I have always been told by my mother that I shouldn't have kids. I would love to have kids, but I run a 50/50 chance of not being able to carry, and that is why I don't have kids. I support single mothers, my best friend of 23 years is one. I watch her work two full time jobs to make sure her little boy has food, clean clothes and a place to live.

Thank you Jo Jo!

Zimmy

Originally Posted by JustJo

Well I'm gonna have to change colors here so I can go point to point...because I think you raise some interesting questions...
Let me start first by saying that, as much as I love the warm sentiments of motherhood...I was NOT raised to be a mother. I was raised by a narcissist who made it very clear to me from a very young age that motherhood ruined her life, her future and her happiness. I was raised to believe that motherhood was one step above slavery, and the last thing in the world I should ever desire.



I do hear what you're saying Dylan...I just feel like you're talking about a 20 year old dynamic.

[SuperFemme]

I don't want to nitpick the etymology of the word breeder. To take it out of context feels like a bait and switch at a political convention.

I guess at the end of the day we all get to choose how we are going to give our power away and how we are going to take it back.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by Nat

Hi Waldo

In an attempt to other heteros, there is also a line being drawn about who qualifies as lesbian/gay and who does not. Within our community, for the term "breeder" to be used to refer to straight people in an ugly way, it is not only ugly to straight people, but it is rejecting and erasing of the people within our community who have had kids.

If you have hetero friends who refer to themselves as breeders, they are doing so from a place of hetero privilege. Also, self-referencing using an offensive term is not the same as othering somebody by calling them an ugly term, no?

I think you're mixing here. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding.

If I were to call someone a breeder that does not exclude anyone. (EDIT: it addresses an individual or identified group. I cannot exclude someone without specificity. Someone can exclude themselves because they do not identify with a term. I hope that makes sense) I was referencing my understanding of the ORIGIN of the derisive usage. There was a time when relatively few queers had children (originating of their queer union) so to say it was rejecting or erasing seems odd.

Today, perhaps more so, but even then it seems to want it both ways. "Wait, I don't like that term applied to me!" and then to be upset because it excludes you? Theoretically I understand, but um... it's weird.

And I don't think it's a matter of hetero privilege. It's a description of their act of having children. But let's say that it is... is it not their right to "take back" or "own" a derogatory term in the same way I've taken back "Dyke"?

But I do agree on the point of "self-referencing" and "othering".

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I don't want to nitpick the etymology of the word breeder. To take it out of context feels like a bait and switch at a political convention.

I guess at the end of the day we all get to choose how we are going to give our power away and how we are going to take it back.

Furthering understanding by breaking down terms to their root never felt like a bait and switch to me, but if you're uncomfortable with further discussion on the topic I respect that.

And yes, we do get to choose what we give and what we take.

[C0LLETTE]

I can't really find a totally appropriate thread so I've picked this one.

Can we please also stop using the word "bitch"? And maybe abandon the attempt to "reclaim" words that were (and still are ) used to denigrate and humiliate us.

Maybe it's generational but try as I might I can't get comfy with the word "cunt" and I don't see the point of trying. I know some people claim to love these words but I can't help thinking they use them defiantly or in a titillating manner but never unselfconsciously or as part of their natural language. Maybe some words should just be relegated to a museum of horrors ... recognised for what they were or became ... and we move on.

Please do weigh in.