Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own. - Page 4

evolveme · 06-11-2010, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

i think this is one way that the term separates us as a community.

pitting those w/children against those w/o children.

women are fucking AMAZING by the very virtue of being women. not because they reproduce or not.

Apropos to Dylan’s original point, it is the conditions of patriarchy that pits women against one another, and that forces the competition.

Unless it is evolution. (Though certainly patriarchy could be a tool of evolution.)

Jet · 06-11-2010, 10:03 PM

This doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of discrimination in the queer community and I have been the object as such.

I had gay men friends who always used breeder when talking about straights. None of this is new to me.

waxnrope · 06-11-2010, 10:07 PM

re the stud comparison above. the term was used during slavery to indicate the BREEDING capability of black men ...

SuperFemme · 06-11-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waxnrope

re the stud comparison above. the term was used during slavery to indicate the BREEDING capability of black men ...

which makes sense as to the poem that was spoken.

Mister Bent · 06-11-2010, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

This doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of discrimination in the queer community and I have been the object as such.

I had gay men friends who always used breeder when talking about straights. None of this is new to me.

Way to make it about you.

Though, it raises the salient point that the term "breeders" doesn't refer solely to women, but to heterosexuals in general, aka "those who breed."

Because no queer person ever got pregnant. |:

The term "breeder" isn't necessarily one which pits woman against woman, except in this context, in which homosexual women (here) might use it as a put down toward heterosexual women (those "others"). Not having children v. having children.

It's an absurd and demeaning generalization, not to mention, we all know having babies is bad.

Studs oughta quit makin' em.

The_Lady_Snow · 06-11-2010, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

This doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of discrimination in the queer community and I have been the object as such.

I had gay men friends who always used breeder when talking about straights. None of this is new to me.

I gotta ask Jet

Do you let your gay men friends continue to use this ugly term? Or do you call them on their shit?

Curious how you blend in with the boys, I really am..

Nat · 06-11-2010, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

The term "breeder" isn't necessarily one which pits woman against woman, except in this context, in which homosexual women (here) might use it as a put down toward heterosexual women (those "others").

It can also be used by anybody LGBTQ against anybody else LGBTQ (who also has kids or has been in a position to have kids).

In your women vs women scenario above, queer women can use this term against other queer women.

AtLast · 06-11-2010, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina

i have strong feelings about this even though i have not had a child. i have been dissed on a couple of threads for suggesting that not every parent can have it all -- the career they want and being a good parent. It doesn't always work that way even if it should.

Anyway. Most places in the world, women do not have the choice to not have children. That's a given. That's wrong. BUT it's a separate issue.

Once someone has a child, that is, in my opinion, something to be respected, valued, and supported. If i err, it's on the side of romanticizing the work of parenting and the connection between parent and child. i can not see any excuse for ever denigrating it. It needs to be more respected, more valued in our culture and around the world. Liberation for women is not gotten through undervaluing how most women spend their time.

Most women, no matter how poor, sick, or oppressed, find ways to parent well and have rich and meaningful connections with their children. They invest their lives in their children. Whether they should have had to get pregnant or not, that investment deserves respect. Huge amounts of respect.

i do not think girls should be taught not to want to parent, not to value parenting as a life goal. i think boys should be taught to be more invested in parenting, to think of it as something they should prepare for and imagine and dream of.

People are always going to have babies, and it will be a decades or longer -- probably much longer -- before women on this planet always do so voluntarily.

But devaluing their contributions is devaluing their lives. However else they might have chosen to live, being a mom is the life most are leading. And it's hugely valuable.

To me, it's sacred. However a child came into this world, once she is here, the world must welcome her and honor those who guide her along her way.

Have to add, no matter how one becomes a parent, it is sacred. Also, there are women that had to make very difficult and heart breaking choices about their ability to parent a child, yet, have them in their heart each and every day.

AtLast · 06-11-2010, 11:22 PM

The term breeder, just like the term class (or classless, no class) have been purged from my vocacbulary. They both (and there are others) have just taken on negative connotations in so many ways and for many people.

Something that I think this very community has given me is an awareness of just how hurtful some terms can be. We are so diverse. Frankly, the term vanilla bothers me because it has evolved into a put down in some ways.

For me, its all about being sensitive to terms (or phrases) that just can be negative to people. And the negative attachments are part of an evolutionary process, usually not starting out negative. If I use a term or phrase and just one person tells me that it is insulting to them, I listen to their reasons. We all have different backgrounds (come from different regions, plus throw ethnic/racial, class, identity, sexuality, etc. in the mix) and come from different places.

Random · 06-11-2010, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

Dylan

I have to STRONGLY disagree with this misandrist statement...

I know for a fact that this is not true..

Both my mother and myself we *unwed mothers* and I know DAMN well that my father didn't think my mother was a whore or untouchable.. I know the same thing about my ex husband...

Remember.. there are NO absolutes in live.. not ONE group of ANYTHING/ANYONE feels the same way, simply because they belong to that group....

Sorry for the derail.. but I can't sit still and let all guys be tared with the same feather...

Random · 06-11-2010, 11:43 PM

I've never actually had a problem with the word..

I've used it for myself a time or two..

But I never really put any thought into it...

To me, it just meant someone who had given birth/had children/who's job it was to have children...

I don't know if I've ever said it in a negitive way...

I'm going to have to think on this....

If someone called me a breeder, I wouldn't be offended..

But then again, I'm reading Chapterhouse Dune and the Breeding Mistresses are a power unto them selves... They control the future...

IrishGrrl · 06-12-2010, 12:23 AM

OFFS..

Lets just start a thread called

"out of context fuck ups"

or

"let's kick Dylan's ass"

Seriously,

We'll save space and could maybe post pics too!

sharkchomp · 06-12-2010, 01:17 AM

I've only ever heard the word used by lesbians against/towards heterosexuals. They meant it harshly.

It is a degrading word that lowers people to animals (dehumanizing) and I choose not to use it towards any person (unless they are breeding livestock or other animals ie. a dog breeder).

As far as gay folk using it against other gay folk - wow!!!! That's just sad.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

Nat · 06-12-2010, 06:14 AM

This thread is about the word "breeder" and other words used to hurt other members of the LGBTQ community. At least, that's what I get from the thread title and every post made by the OP.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that even when LGBTQ people use this term to refer to straight people, even when the target is straight people, it does feel erasing and dehumanizing to LGBTQ folks who have kids or who have been in relationships where kids could have resulted. The fact that this group of LGBTQ people aren't even considered when directing this term at straight people is not simple innocence or thoughtlessness - it's disregard. Especially once an LGBTQ person has stated that the word itself is hurtful and upsetting.

We haven't gotten into other words seen as hurtful to members of this community, but the ones discussed most often in this community are incorrectly applied pronouns.

Other words that I see as similary hurtful: "real" and "true" - as in "real lesbian" or "real femme" or "true butch" or "real woman" or "real man".

Also the terms "more/most" and "less/least" in conjunction with butch, femme, masculine, feminine when used to describe others - that can be very hurtful language and not just for the intended recipient.

I've also seen people get very upset about being called a victim.

Though this isn't a specific word, I also find it alarming when LGBTQ people advocate outlawing divorce (stating that "divorce is the real threat to marriage", not gays). I've heard this more at protests against prop 8, but it's another way to erase and divide members of the community who may have gotten divorced. Beyond that, the sheer obliviousness to the ramifications of outlawing divorce stresses me out, even if the people who say this type of thing are trying to make a totally different point.

I also think it's alarming/upsetting when white members of the LGBTQ community show up at protests with signs that say things like "Gay is the new Black" or state in other ways that the struggle for LGBTQ rights is above the struggle for racial justice/equality or that the struggle for racial justice/equality has already been won.

The_Lady_Snow · 06-12-2010, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishGrrl

OFFS..

Lets just start a thread called

"out of context fuck ups"

or

"let's kick Dylan's ass"

Seriously,

We'll save space and could maybe post pics too!

Yanno this isn't the Dylan show..

It's about a WORD that is hurtful and a very civil conversation is being had. Have we asked Dylan not to use it, sure.

Will he stop?

Not really sure...

I don't feel I am taking anything out of context, it is something that is oogy to some of us, and being there have been THREADS all over lately about hurtful terms we figured we should and could be heard.

Just sayin'

Heart · 06-12-2010, 07:22 AM

It looked to me like Dylan was talking about the patriarchal context of a term like breeder, as it relates to conditioning in a sexist culture. And I, *hold the phone*, totally agree with him. It's why the term is so offensive.

I am constantly confused about the way things get personalized around here.
Dylan wasn't talking about a particular, individual mother or father or person.
He certainly wasn't talking about misandry (huh?). He was talking about patriarchy. About an environment in which all of us, (male & female) learn that a woman's value is connected to whether or not she bears children in the service of the patriarchy. That construct exists. Do many of us defy it? Of course! That doesn't erase it however.

I have heard the term breeder used in two distinct ways -- as a slur by queers against straight people, and by childless people against people with children. While these slurs may not overtly differentiate between men and women (men also "breed" children), I agree with SF that these slurs reduce things down to women's reproductive organs. It's objectifying, offensive, and derogatory. And its patriarchy that sets up the context in which that is so.

Heart

The_Lady_Snow · 06-12-2010, 07:41 AM

This thread is about the word "breeder" and other words used to hurt other members of the LGBTQ community. At least, that's what I get from the thread title and every post made by the OP.

I too thought that is what this thread was about, NOT how Dylan chose to explain patriarchy.

*slaps* forehead

Silly me thinking it was ok to ask this be taken into account.

By all means continue to use the word. silly me..

Heart · 06-12-2010, 07:51 AM

Snowy - I don't get it -- we are talking about the word breeder and how it hurts us. Are you saying we shouldn't mention the context of the word, we shouldn't mention patriarchy? I don't know what your issue is with Dylan per se, but like I said talking about the patriarchal context of a word like breeder is not personal. I for one, can't talk about the word and leave out the context.

And by the way, the word has been used several times in very direct ways to hurt me. I am, after all a mother and a woman and a queer.

Heart

The_Lady_Snow · 06-12-2010, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart

Snowy - I don't get it -- we are talking about the word breeder and how it hurts us. Are you saying we shouldn't mention the context of the word, we shouldn't mention patriarchy? I don't know what your issue is with Dylan per se, but like I said talking about the patriarchal context of a word like breeder is not personal. I for one, can't talk about the word and leave out the context.

And by the way, the word has been used several times in very direct ways to hurt me. I am, after all a mother and a woman and a queer.

Heart

ONCE AGAIN...

IT IS NOT ABOUT DYLAN.......

Talk about patriarchy till you are blue in the face, can it be done without the word breeder though???

I believe that this is what this thread is ABOUT..

How hurtful the word breeder is.......

Not Dylan....

I have no issues with Dylan....

One could say I would even buy him a cuppa coffee, not from Starbucks though he doesn't like em.

waxnrope · 06-12-2010, 08:40 AM

This is more interesting than a tennis match. Only my brain, not head, is going back and forth.
I agree absolutely with Dylan and Heart (and a few others) that the ROOT cause of the word is patriarchy.
I also agree with Lady Snow (now that's a wonder!) that the WORD is offensive and derogatory. I can see that, by her response (and many others here on this thread) that it is hurtful ~ no matter the cause.
If I do that which I was taught, to take something that is hurtful to another and reflect upon it, find kindredness within my own experience/s, then I look at it this way: If someone used the "n" word (I hate how "polite" that sounds, but would probably get suspended from the site for using the entire word, despite my ethnic origins), no matter how it was explained to me it's rootedness in colonialism, racism, patriarchy (and yes, it has a root there, too ...), I would see red and not hear much of what was said afterward. Because it has been used to degrade me and darker skinned people of color, because of the experiential history of its use (images of dogs, water hoses, burning churches, and burning children, rape, etc. immediately come to mind), I would REACT to the WORD and not give a rat's behind about where the fuck it came from. Sorry, I don't know if I can use that word here *shrugs*.
So, Dylan, Heart, etc., let's drop the hammer and stop trying to beat something into peoples heads when it is their hearts that bleed ... I hear ya.

06-11-2010, 11:43 PM	#71
Random Senior Member How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: back in the land of trees and snow Posts: 2,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 8,017 Thanked 5,327 Times in 1,379 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I've never actually had a problem with the word.. I've used it for myself a time or two.. But I never really put any thought into it... To me, it just meant someone who had given birth/had children/who's job it was to have children... I don't know if I've ever said it in a negitive way... I'm going to have to think on this.... If someone called me a breeder, I wouldn't be offended.. But then again, I'm reading Chapterhouse Dune and the Breeding Mistresses are a power unto them selves... They control the future... __________________ ~Volunteer~ "It gets in your blood"

06-12-2010, 01:17 AM	#73
sharkchomp Member How Do You Identify?: TG/stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Knoxville Posts: 426 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 419 Thanked 1,341 Times in 309 Posts Rep Power: 9701637	I've only ever heard the word used by lesbians against/towards heterosexuals. They meant it harshly. It is a degrading word that lowers people to animals (dehumanizing) and I choose not to use it towards any person (unless they are breeding livestock or other animals ie. a dog breeder). As far as gay folk using it against other gay folk - wow!!!! That's just sad. ~~~shark~~~~~~~~ __________________ take a fish boating

06-12-2010, 06:14 AM	#74
Nat Senior Member How Do You Identify?: bigender Preferred Pronoun?: whatevs Relationship Status: in a relationship Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tx Posts: 3,535 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,042 Thanked 13,992 Times in 2,595 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	This thread is about the word "breeder" and other words used to hurt other members of the LGBTQ community. At least, that's what I get from the thread title and every post made by the OP. I think one thing to keep in mind is that even when LGBTQ people use this term to refer to straight people, even when the target is straight people, it does feel erasing and dehumanizing to LGBTQ folks who have kids or who have been in relationships where kids could have resulted. The fact that this group of LGBTQ people aren't even considered when directing this term at straight people is not simple innocence or thoughtlessness - it's disregard. Especially once an LGBTQ person has stated that the word itself is hurtful and upsetting. We haven't gotten into other words seen as hurtful to members of this community, but the ones discussed most often in this community are incorrectly applied pronouns. Other words that I see as similary hurtful: "real" and "true" - as in "real lesbian" or "real femme" or "true butch" or "real woman" or "real man". Also the terms "more/most" and "less/least" in conjunction with butch, femme, masculine, feminine when used to describe others - that can be very hurtful language and not just for the intended recipient. I've also seen people get very upset about being called a victim. Though this isn't a specific word, I also find it alarming when LGBTQ people advocate outlawing divorce (stating that "divorce is the real threat to marriage", not gays). I've heard this more at protests against prop 8, but it's another way to erase and divide members of the community who may have gotten divorced. Beyond that, the sheer obliviousness to the ramifications of outlawing divorce stresses me out, even if the people who say this type of thing are trying to make a totally different point. I also think it's alarming/upsetting when white members of the LGBTQ community show up at protests with signs that say things like "Gay is the new Black" or state in other ways that the struggle for LGBTQ rights is above the struggle for racial justice/equality or that the struggle for racial justice/equality has already been won. __________________ I'm a fountain of blood. In the shape of a girl. - Bjork What is to give light must endure burning. -Viktor Frankl

06-12-2010, 07:22 AM	#76
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,531 Times in 412 Posts Rep Power: 12032609	It's patriarchy! It looked to me like Dylan was talking about the patriarchal context of a term like breeder, as it relates to conditioning in a sexist culture. And I, hold the phone, totally agree with him. It's why the term is so offensive. I am constantly confused about the way things get personalized around here. Dylan wasn't talking about a particular, individual mother or father or person. He certainly wasn't talking about misandry (huh?). He was talking about patriarchy. About an environment in which all of us, (male & female) learn that a woman's value is connected to whether or not she bears children in the service of the patriarchy. That construct exists. Do many of us defy it? Of course! That doesn't erase it however. I have heard the term breeder used in two distinct ways -- as a slur by queers against straight people, and by childless people against people with children. While these slurs may not overtly differentiate between men and women (men also "breed" children), I agree with SF that these slurs reduce things down to women's reproductive organs. It's objectifying, offensive, and derogatory. And its patriarchy that sets up the context in which that is so. Heart

06-12-2010, 07:41 AM	#77
The_Lady_Snow MILLION $$$ PUSSY How Do You Identify?: Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Iconic Ms. Relationship Status: Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: La Reina del Sur Posts: 22,488 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 32,231 Thanked 80,119 Times in 15,678 Posts Rep Power: 21474873	This thread is about the word "breeder" and other words used to hurt other members of the LGBTQ community. At least, that's what I get from the thread title and every post made by the OP. I too thought that is what this thread was about, NOT how Dylan chose to explain patriarchy. slaps forehead Silly me thinking it was ok to ask this be taken into account. By all means continue to use the word. silly me.. __________________ "If you’re going to play these dirty games of ours, then you might as well indulge completely. It’s all about turning back into an animal and that’s the beauty of it. Place your guilt on the sidewalk and take a blow torch to it (guilt is usually worthless anyway). Be perverted, be filthy, do things that mannered people shouldn’t do. If you’re going to be gross then go for it and don’t wimp out."---Master Aiden

06-11-2010, 10:03 PM	#62
Jet Timed Out - TOS Drama How Do You Identify?: .. Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: .. Posts: 3,471 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 292 Thanked 2,646 Times in 1,293 Posts Rep Power: 0	This doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of discrimination in the queer community and I have been the object as such. I had gay men friends who always used breeder when talking about straights. None of this is new to me.

06-11-2010, 10:07 PM	#63
waxnrope Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 5/27/2011 Preferred Pronoun?: hy ho, hy ho; he, she, it, whatever Relationship Status: Going slow ... Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: in her orifices ... la frontera Posts: 1,433 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 6,414 Thanked 2,958 Times in 953 Posts Rep Power: 0	re the stud comparison above. the term was used during slavery to indicate the BREEDING capability of black men ...

06-11-2010, 11:22 PM	#69
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,830 Times in 3,200 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	The term breeder, just like the term class (or classless, no class) have been purged from my vocacbulary. They both (and there are others) have just taken on negative connotations in so many ways and for many people. Something that I think this very community has given me is an awareness of just how hurtful some terms can be. We are so diverse. Frankly, the term vanilla bothers me because it has evolved into a put down in some ways. For me, its all about being sensitive to terms (or phrases) that just can be negative to people. And the negative attachments are part of an evolutionary process, usually not starting out negative. If I use a term or phrase and just one person tells me that it is insulting to them, I listen to their reasons. We all have different backgrounds (come from different regions, plus throw ethnic/racial, class, identity, sexuality, etc. in the mix) and come from different places.

06-12-2010, 12:23 AM	#72
IrishGrrl Member How Do You Identify?: Queer Femme Leatherdyke Preferred Pronoun?: She/her Relationship Status: In a relationship/non-monogamous Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 877 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 276 Thanked 1,209 Times in 366 Posts Rep Power: 2427287	OFFS.. Lets just start a thread called "out of context fuck ups" or "let's kick Dylan's ass" Seriously, We'll save space and could maybe post pics too!

06-12-2010, 07:51 AM	#78
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,531 Times in 412 Posts Rep Power: 12032609	Snowy - I don't get it -- we are talking about the word breeder and how it hurts us. Are you saying we shouldn't mention the context of the word, we shouldn't mention patriarchy? I don't know what your issue is with Dylan per se, but like I said talking about the patriarchal context of a word like breeder is not personal. I for one, can't talk about the word and leave out the context. And by the way, the word has been used several times in very direct ways to hurt me. I am, after all a mother and a woman and a queer. Heart

06-12-2010, 08:40 AM	#80
waxnrope Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 5/27/2011 Preferred Pronoun?: hy ho, hy ho; he, she, it, whatever Relationship Status: Going slow ... Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: in her orifices ... la frontera Posts: 1,433 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 6,414 Thanked 2,958 Times in 953 Posts Rep Power: 0	boing ... boing ... (or thud ... thud...?) This is more interesting than a tennis match. Only my brain, not head, is going back and forth. I agree absolutely with Dylan and Heart (and a few others) that the ROOT cause of the word is patriarchy. I also agree with Lady Snow (now that's a wonder!) that the WORD is offensive and derogatory. I can see that, by her response (and many others here on this thread) that it is hurtful ~ no matter the cause. If I do that which I was taught, to take something that is hurtful to another and reflect upon it, find kindredness within my own experience/s, then I look at it this way: If someone used the "n" word (I hate how "polite" that sounds, but would probably get suspended from the site for using the entire word, despite my ethnic origins), no matter how it was explained to me it's rootedness in colonialism, racism, patriarchy (and yes, it has a root there, too ...), I would see red and not hear much of what was said afterward. Because it has been used to degrade me and darker skinned people of color, because of the experiential history of its use (images of dogs, water hoses, burning churches, and burning children, rape, etc. immediately come to mind), I would REACT to the WORD and not give a rat's behind about where the fuck it came from. Sorry, I don't know if I can use that word here shrugs. So, Dylan, Heart, etc., let's drop the hammer and stop trying to beat something into peoples heads when it is their hearts that bleed ... I hear ya.