It Hurts Me.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Jess

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks!

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I can not tell you how many femme's I have spoken to who will tell you flat out that they use those "charms" as currency. I think based on that, some butches may feel it is "ok" to ask them to use it for whatever seeming advantage it may offer in a given situation. ( The "extra toast" cracked me the hell up, btw.. dude, here's a quarter.. git sum) I may even at some point may have asked my girl to deal with a mechanic or something, because yes, usually my girl/ partner is better received than I am, especially in very testosterone laden spaces. I can guarantee, it was never for some extra toast or what have you.

I appreciate this topic. I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you

I know because I used to be one of those Femmes. I thought that was all I had going for me.

[thedivahrrrself]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I am not, and I repeat not. wearing. rainbow. earrings.

ROFL I would draw the line there too. I've worn rainbow necklaces, but people still ask me if I'm at the pride parade to support my gay brother or something. I want to yell, "Not all queer women have mullets, you know!" but alas, I'm usually much more polite....

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by thedivahrrrself

ROFL I would draw the line there too. I've worn rainbow necklaces, but people still ask me if I'm at the pride parade to support my gay brother or something. I want to yell, "Not all queer women have mullets, you know!" but alas, I'm usually much more polite....

OMG, people are idiots.

[Hack]

Firedance,

I am very sorry this happened to you and that butches have treated you in a way that is neither respectful nor admirable.

I happen to believe that one should take great pride in the way he/she treats a femme. To me, femmes are the most amazing women because they choose to stand next to us, stand up for us, and stand with us. They do all that in the face of what can be some rather serious hostility in the world.

And honestly, a butch should know how to avoid a line, get a good table, but most importantly -- treat you properly. At all times. I believe in having a standard that I maintain with all femmes I know.

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Hack

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

Having someone's back is not an easy thing to do. It is a balancing act at times. Riley & I went shopping recently and I hovered near the dressing room, just in case there was an issue. But, I tried to do it in a way that did not take away from his masculinity. Some girls may not know how to do it in a way that shows support without "showing up."

[Firedance]

Originally Posted by Turtle

To be seen or not to be seen -

Yes, it hurts when we are not seen…and it strikes extra deep when we think the other person should know.

And – there is a certain freedom in an out presentation – this is who I am, like me or not…and some totally natural presentations are not readable as a stereotype – yes? Complicated shit.

Is it nice to be “read” – by the right people, yes. What is that? I think it is being “known” – which includes not having to explain who you are. Does it hurt extra deep when someone you think knows you fucks up? Yes.

Thank you for The Dance, Fire

You've identified the crux of it Turtle. In this community my expectations are different. I expect Butches, boi's and Trans Men to acknowledge and respect my queer gender and sexuality, my identity.

I wrote my friend, whom I respect, and enjoy hanging out with, and let her know I was about to post this, because I believe in transparency in friendships as well as governments. She promptly apologized, and we are good. She wasn't the first, and I doubt she will be the last. And I figured something out about myself. I was finally able to put into words why I felt betrayed.

I chose to share my thoughts in the hope that those of us who participate in this dynamic could have exactly this dicussion. I Know I'm not the only Femme that expects this type of respect. And I suspect there are Femmes who would not have been bothered at all by those statements.

Clarity, clarity is a good thing!

[Firedance]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Showing up with a BullDyke is the only thing that really says it for me. I am not, and I repeat not. wearing. rainbow. earrings.

Amen. Amen. And again I say Amen!!!

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I really don't explain much any more....but when I do, its "pass the salsa, I'm a Lesbian". If they ask why Butches rather than bio men? I ask how graphic they want my reply to be.

Grin... Smirk... I am feeling the Femme-Sista Love on this one!!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Hack

Firedance,

I am very sorry this happened to you and that butches have treated you in a way that is neither respectful nor admirable.

I happen to believe that one should take great pride in the way he/she treats a femme. To me, femmes are the most amazing women because they choose to stand next to us, stand up for us, and stand with us. They do all that in the face of what can be some rather serious hostility in the world.

And honestly, a butch should know how to avoid a line, get a good table, but most importantly -- treat you properly. At all times. I believe in having a standard that I maintain with all femmes I know.

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

[macele]

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by macele

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

There are some very NOT "sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy" Butch Lesbians around.

There are hard assed very very masculine Butch Lesbians out there. Sometimes, these Butches need some guidance from friends and Femmes on how to act. lol

Not trying to be argumentative

[thedivahrrrself]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

There are some very NOT "sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy" Butch Lesbians around.

There are hard assed very very masculine Butch Lesbians out there. Sometimes, these Butches need some guidance from friends and Femmes on how to act. lol

Not trying to be argumentative

I completely agree. And the hardass ones can be a lot of fun, but sometimes they need a little "training" LOL We call those "rough around the edges".

[Quintease]

Reading this I realise I've been told a lot that I can 'flirt with men to get blah blah done' except no, I don't and never have flirted with men for anything.

I think it's the expectation that we have straight privilege and therefore will be comfortable to 'trick' people into thinking we're sexually available and therefore eligible for free favours from heterosexual men. Forgetting of course that we don't want it. Just like we don't want attention from men.

[Firedance]

Originally Posted by Jess

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks!

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you

I quite agree, different people, different expectations, different dynamics.

However for me, this issue goes deeper than personal preference. I almost titled the thread, "How to kill The Dance". Which may sound overly dramatic, at the same time, it is true for me. If my gender/sexuality is not recognized by a counterpart, be they Butch/boi/Trans Man then there IS no dance. There is no dynamic. To me, this speaks to the soul of our micro-culture, and the history of our dynamic.

I have a hard time imagining any OFOS partner casually tossing a Femme at a straight guy... Lol. And yes, once it really was for a piece of toast!

[puddin']

unpracticed manners, isn't dat an oxymoron?

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by Firedance

I am sick of Butches who say to me;

"Hey, why don't you go use your charms and get us ___(insert object here)___."

or,

"Hey go work your magic so we don't have to wait."

or,

"Go flirt with that guy so we can get out of here".

To me I see absolutely NO RESPECT on the butches part! If hy/shy wants a free drink go find someone to buy it for you. Don't ask your date to exploit herself for you.

I'm honestly furious over what people have done to you!


No.
No, No, No, and Hell No!


I spend all day every day, verbally and non-verbally telling cis-guys their advances are not welcome. I am friendly, funny, polite, and very, very, firm. I expend great amounts of energy simply asserting my Identity every day and I will not sell out my sexuality or my identity to get you an extra piece of toast!

AMEN!!!


So this is your part of The Dance... Don't ask me to deny who I am. Don't ask me to throw away the identity that I work so diligently to affirm in a world that keeps telling me I doesn't exist. Don't casually, thoughtlessly, dismiss my identity, and dishonor me by implying that my identity is less real than yours, simply because I can "pass" as straight!

I can handle coming out a dozen times a week. I can educate people all week long.

But you?
When YOU don't see me?
That hurts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To all the Butches who have never, and would never, think of saying such things to a Femme; I thank you. Your strength and respect is what keeps The Dance alive for me.

~Fire.

grrrrrrr I'm disgusted!!

[Hack]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.



Jake

[durrrrrrrr]

first of all. FireDance, I am sorry to hear that happened to you.

as for myself, I taught myself ( cuz my Dad was and is an ass , my Mother passed away when i was young ) to treat ALL ladies with respect.

not only treat the ladies with respect, treat EVERYONE with respect. I try to and dont have to work at that to hard, to practice that every day.

I offer my chair if i see a lady standing, I will offer my chair if i see a butch standing.

if i see a lady who is walkin behind me, I will open and leave the door open for her. I will do that also for anyone walkin behind me.

It's the simple things that can make anyone's day

[~ocean]

I can totaly understand y a butch would ask hys femme to deal with the male ego in a situation that hy ( ur lover/partner ) might be challenged in.. No one has ever asked me on a date to use my femmine charms . That's just "Bad Manners"...There wouldn't be a second date .. Now this is where being an attractive femme woman comes in to play, In the past, (this past saturday even ) and in my future I do and will use my femmine ways to get what I want from the male ego. Bash me if u want, if the shoe was on the other foot, u know a man would take advantage as well,they have and the will. Soo sry Fire it happened to you on a date.
~ocean

[SweetJane]

Firedance, I'm sorry this keeps happening to you. It truly isn't respectful.

But I so understand and resonate when you wrote:
You know, we Femme's are only truly seen by those of us who can hear the music of, "The Dance". We are both, inexplicably more fully alive when in the presence of the other, even if we are strangers, even if there is no attraction, and yes, even if we are simply friends.

It isn't just being invisible. It is being who we are. We need our counterparts in the dance to validate who we are, to let us relax and just be, and know we are femme. When they try to trade what we are into a currency that benefits them, that's exploitation. And it's truly very sad.

[Mtn]

I cannot IMAGINE ever suggesting that my girl "go get something done" via her femininity. That's crass and feeds into some heteronormative, "women are pretty so let's use them" mindset that I cannot begin to understand. It's disrespectful.