It Hurts Me.

[Viola]

Sensing tone from your message firedance, so responding in tone

Dance... Will my soul spirit dance also?

I'm sorry to hear you firedance go through this...

I have different challenges then you, where I don't know how to connect in a social way, I'm autistic an autistic femme,

So as me who's drawn toward butches, I don't go to social anything...

So I'm not known in social.

I fear social, I couldn't go where you went -

those butches were, who demanded from you - this wasn't a dance - this was greed so empty shallow, asking a body of empty pleasures.

I wish I had the abilities to verbally socialize.

But as hard as I tried to over come, I'm realizing I'll have this challenge for the rest of my life, so I'm learning a pain of sadness of acceptance a loss that I'll never be socially and so I morn a loss that I thought maybe I could over come,

but in my morn of loss and my deep challenges I still go through, I can't be only body.

And I think the reason why is cause my body is unkind toward me, the challenges has made me turn to my soul spirit for my purpose in a deeper understanding a dance where share a simple word share, sounds simple, but share is a relationship and not an exchange.

I sense those butches thought in exchange and expected you to approach the exchange, I sense this tone from your message.

I read your message as these butches wants you to approach and actually if I were in your shoes and these butches said this to me, how would I feel?

First I probably feel empty, cause it sounds more like these butches wants to be entertain and wants you to just entertain them and expects you to, .

I'm very shy and hidden where I won't show off body parts cause I feel shallow... So if butches wants me to show, I will question their motives. Who do they really want? I'm not only body.

Maybe thats it, this that is in the air when they demand you, they're shallow and wants you to be shallow.

and this is why you feel this, I'm guessing, what bugs you.

I'm analyzing this ok...

I'm not just a body, I have a soul and spirit, plus what if I have a body that is what a butch wants, what would happen if months later, I get in a car accident and I end up burnt and injured and or what if I get cancer or what if, I can't walk, then what...

Can we still dance?

If its not shallow I say yes...

will these butches who demand from you be there, or is it shallow...

and visa versa, femmes can be shallow and only be there when body is...

but that is only a body, plus if only body and of course there's not such thing as only body cause if there was only body it will be a dead body,

so what then is going on if only body, what's going on to the spirit and soul then if only body, is it only what?

An exchange but what's being exchange of what, if only body but what's moving the body, and only exchange of, with in shallow, if dance in this, is spirit soul then being sold, but sold to what?

I went through so much the challenges my body has given me, I can't be only my body, I can't...

if butches acted like this to me: I will question who am I really, I would say to these butches, who are you - the body is a house, are you a house only how shallow.

even if you speak of dance, what is dance, isn't dance energy...

what is femme and butch actually?

I read at here BFP about friendship before lover...

I'm really thinking of this more and more and more...

Who am I?

I'm soul spirit so in dance will my soul and spirit also dance too?

To whom approach at what time isn't the question or even the dance, for there's no rules when in relationship, for what rules can there be when dance is of soul and spirit?

If rules were only, its an exchange performance that's sold to an ability that's fragile and will die

Laws dance high in pride condemns empty and dies.

[jessiel]

...fire, I like the fact that you also say that you don´t mind cover up when needed to ignorante ppl. But I can relate to your words far to much and think its a topic that is more common than spoken about.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Hack

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.



Jake

Originally Posted by durrrrrrrr

first of all. FireDance, I am sorry to hear that happened to you.

as for myself, I taught myself ( cuz my Dad was and is an ass , my Mother passed away when i was young ) to treat ALL ladies with respect.

not only treat the ladies with respect, treat EVERYONE with respect. I try to and dont have to work at that to hard, to practice that every day.

I offer my chair if i see a lady standing, I will offer my chair if i see a butch standing.

if i see a lady who is walkin behind me, I will open and leave the door open for her. I will do that also for anyone walkin behind me.

It's the simple things that can make anyone's day

Would that every Butch were as gallant as you two!

[BullDog]

Hmmm, well all the talk about being courteous and polite to femmes and opening doors and such is all well and good, but to me what the OP was talking about was quite a bit deeper than that. I think she is talking about being honored and valued for who she is as a femme- she is just as lesbian and/or queer as her butch counterpart, so why would a butch ask her to go flirt with a male? She is not straight. Femmes are just as lesbian and/or queer as butches. Treat them as such and respect them for who they are.

[Kobi]

It saddens me to read things about people with questionable manners who make illogical assumptions and demands on other people.

It makes me think things like people are not seen as people but as objects. That it is ok to use others to get things....even something as simple as a piece of toast. That it is a power and privilege thing. That it is a game of unhealthy interpersonal dynamics.

I dont see it as a butch thing or a femme thing or a spectrum thing. I see it as a people thing. People do weird shit for even weirder reasons.

I also dont necessarily see this behavior as a character issue tho it does raise some red flags. Sometimes, the behavior has a malacious intent. Sometimes it may be inexperience or role confusion or other things.

Regardless of where it comes from, dont hesitate to stand up for yourself. There is nothing sexier than a woman who demands the respect she deserves.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Firedance

I am sick of Butches who say to me;

"Hey, why don't you go use your charms and get us ___(insert object here)___."

or,

"Hey go work your magic so we don't have to wait."

or,

"Go flirt with that guy so we can get out of here".


No.
No, No, No, and Hell No!


I spend all day every day, verbally and non-verbally telling cis-guys their advances are not welcome. I am friendly, funny, polite, and very, very, firm. I expend great amounts of energy simply asserting my Identity every day and I will not sell out my sexuality or my identity to get you an extra piece of toast!

~Fire.

Wow....honestly, I'd be pretty furious with anyone who asked me to do this....

I also find that I tolerate less and less bullshit as I get older....and I was also probably a smart-mouthed bartender for wayyyyy too long....so I'd probably say, "uh huh, you want me to offer him a blow job and see if I can get you a ham steak?"

Sometimes people need to have it made clear exactly how much of an asshole they are being.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Firedance

I am sick of Butches who say to me;

"Hey, why don't you go use your charms and get us ___(insert object here)___."

or,

"Hey go work your magic so we don't have to wait."

or,

"Go flirt with that guy so we can get out of here".

I think the part of this that really bothers me is that you use "butches" (plural) and list multiple examples. So, obviously this has happened more than once, from more than one person. Why would anyone assume that someone can/will "make things happen" and how many other femmes have said butches requested this of?

[Viola]

This is a long long message... Not really knowing how to be breif...

Firedance this is me thinking about your message more ok, so this isn't me attacking you in any way, I'm just analyzing that's all...

I want to add to this thought of dance, as believe it or not, after I wrote the other message, I kept saying to myself no that wasn't all of it...

It was as if I left out some things ok...

Firedance you got me on a roll here by your message, um, I feel for you going through this however as I read what you wrote which is basically about timing...

Firedance you expected to be seen, well I was thinking after I wrote my other message, actually as you expect, I'm feeling that that then is more of an exchange as well...

To expect anything from strangers is an exchange...

According to the scene that you have place, which is I'll put me in the scene ok...

Me femme, sitting alone and near at another table are a few butches sitting at a table...

First of all, I wouldn't expect anything at all... Nor have any plans, for isn't plans an exchange as well?

Also about timing who shall approach who and when, is it Femme's first or Butches first

Um, I'm into chess ok, so actually as I have difficulties with social there's a flip side of me, where I'm focus on interests, and boldly I might as the butches sitting at their table, ask if any of you play chess...

If whom ever said yes, I would say would you like to play chess later, um, and perhaps get a chess game going at a later day, and its just chess...

I mean the idea of this instant date and instant me, instantly being in a set of rules and an instant going out: the problem I have is, if it goes to fast, I can't digest analyze each step, which this creates not of rules but creates unique self with a unique situation.

So now lets say I said nothing to the butches at the other table, but I kept quiet, would I expect them to approach me, no,

would I expect to be seen no...

so what I gather from your message firedance is this dance between strangers, you be seen they approach,

so what were you feeling then when the butches wanted you to approach;

maybe you identify important in being seen and approach being taken from you, and you're going through an identification crisis.

Actually if I were sitting there quiet and the few butches at their table announce to me that I should approach them, I wouldn't approach them at all, cause how dare anyone tell me how to be with strangers.

I don't abide to any rules which includes any Butch Femme rules and so I don't even know all these rules actually so actually maybe or is it a culture...

Like ok if I visit China and I went to a small rice farm to stay for a month, would I cross rules with out knowing and why is this?

Cause I'll not know them, but I'm still me right?

Well cause I hadn't been in so call social Butch Femme areas offline, I'm not knowing the culture, so actually then I really don't have any expectations of any...

and maybe I be like this same if I stay at the rice farm, crossing rules and not even knowing,

By how I look, I really don't look of anything also, so if there's a look of a femme where a butch can tell from miles and miles away that there's a femme who's attracted toward butches, and you've figure how to do this and so then displeased when the butches hadn't approach; as if rules of expectations

or if there's a place where butches and femmes meets publicly and they all sit around, and like the farm in China there's a set of rules: then there is this social dance of exchange.

And I'm starting to realize something here as I'd been thinking about this?

its the exchange social I have difficulties with with all people,

every time I leave my home its so difficult for me... but what's difficult is the exchanges...

so if I have difficulties in life already, how could I even step up to another level and be looking for a date and sit in a room and this exchange of timing will appear and I'll know already what my part is? I will be a mess.

In living life I get approach by men.

What it actually feels like is I'm being approach by a sells person...

and the male sells person won't lay off...

I'm warn out, drain, by a sells person male, its as if all my energy is drain from me and I'm a dead battery...

I fear could the same happen if I be around butches, would my energy level will be drain,

this is the unique me though, its energy and how will my energy level rise and how will my energy level be drain...

well due to my experience being drain energy by men approaching me in life, I question it all,

this idea of strangers approaching and I'm wondering if two things...

Perhaps what my complaints are about men and fearing this from butches will I have the same draining effect energy due to a sells approach;

what if some people get a high off the sales approach and their energy rises while others gets drain,

yet in social its expected to go through this weather being approach or waiting to be approach (I'm realizing both areas isn't me, social isn't me, its all draining, meaning would I be drain there where you were awaiting to be seen...)

as I'm long winded here, writing... I guess I'm learning and I'm actually learning when reading your message and I thought it over more, and will continue thinking this more...

social exchange rules what about energy levels...

I keep saying I hate dating and I really never want to date; what is that really saying then...

however in your case you want to be seen and approach...

you want an exchange to be expected, I've notice in your message any other dynamic that you speak your drain for needing to explain yourself and you feel relax at the idea that there's no explaining when it comes to you and butches...

so you got me thinking, is it that in exchange in social that drains me does the opposite for you - you feed on the being seen in your expecting social exchange and this is your feeding energy risen in hoping to gain from as before many times you've drank from a social exchange dance, so then hoping to get again a repeat?

this can be understandable as you gain from the energy being charged in you,

but to expect is where I'm wondering about. What would happen if there's no expectations?

I read on-line, about there's more then one language of love...

To reach to the level of love from the beginning of a stranger and if there's a set of rules to abide by, like in your case I hear butches must approach first.

maybe these butches were fed up about exchanges rules.

so if there's a rules of exchange for real in the Butch Femme social, I'm naive,

I sense you know the social exchange and have your drawn toward a type of social exchange and these butches attack what you're drawn to of social exchange.

I avoid social exchanges of all kinds, and actually resent social exchanges,

I'll be thinking more on this;

still I think the ideal way what I read some where here on BFP is friends first then lover...

Something about friendship is appealing for me cause its being self with out any social exchange expectation dance...

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

I am one of the younger or newer butches that you mentioned BUT I do treat ladies with respect. I try to always open doors for her. I would NEVER dream of asking her to do anything like mentioned above.
It frustrates me that my generation and younger do not have these values and morals taught to them as they are growing up.
I was raised by a preacher to say yes ma'am, no ma'am, etc. he taught the boys to open doors for ladies. He taught them to be respectful no matter what. When I came out I adopted those values for me.
A promise to all the femme's reading this...i will NEVER treat a lady the way that some of you have been treated.

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Hack

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.



Jake

Nice to meet you Jake. I agree 100%

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Sue

This is a long long message... Not really knowing how to be breif...

Firedance this is me thinking about your message more ok, so this isn't me attacking you in any way, I'm just analyzing that's all...

I want to add to this thought of dance, as believe it or not, after I wrote the other message, I kept saying to myself no that wasn't all of it...

It was as if I left out some things ok...

Firedance you got me on a roll here by your message, um, I feel for you going through this however as I read what you wrote which is basically about timing...

Firedance you expected to be seen, well I was thinking after I wrote my other message, actually as you expect, I'm feeling that that then is more of an exchange as well...

To expect anything from strangers is an exchange...

According to the scene that you have place, which is I'll put me in the scene ok...

Me femme, sitting alone and near at another table are a few butches sitting at a table...

First of all, I wouldn't expect anything at all... Nor have any plans, for isn't plans an exchange as well?

Also about timing who shall approach who and when, is it Femme's first or Butches first

Um, I'm into chess ok, so actually as I have difficulties with social there's a flip side of me, where I'm focus on interests, and boldly I might as the butches sitting at their table, ask if any of you play chess...

If whom ever said yes, I would say would you like to play chess later, um, and perhaps get a chess game going at a later day, and its just chess...

I mean the idea of this instant date and instant me, instantly being in a set of rules and an instant going out: the problem I have is, if it goes to fast, I can't digest analyze each step, which this creates not of rules but creates unique self with a unique situation.

So now lets say I said nothing to the butches at the other table, but I kept quiet, would I expect them to approach me, no,

would I expect to be seen no...

so what I gather from your message firedance is this dance between strangers, you be seen they approach,

so what were you feeling then when the butches wanted you to approach;

maybe you identify important in being seen and approach being taken from you, and you're going through an identification crisis.

Actually if I were sitting there quiet and the few butches at their table announce to me that I should approach them, I wouldn't approach them at all, cause how dare anyone tell me how to be with strangers.

I don't abide to any rules which includes any Butch Femme rules and so I don't even know all these rules actually so actually maybe or is it a culture...

Like ok if I visit China and I went to a small rice farm to stay for a month, would I cross rules with out knowing and why is this?

Cause I'll not know them, but I'm still me right?

Well cause I hadn't been in so call social Butch Femme areas offline, I'm not knowing the culture, so actually then I really don't have any expectations of any...

and maybe I be like this same if I stay at the rice farm, crossing rules and not even knowing,

By how I look, I really don't look of anything also, so if there's a look of a femme where a butch can tell from miles and miles away that there's a femme who's attracted toward butches, and you've figure how to do this and so then displeased when the butches hadn't approach; as if rules of expectations

or if there's a place where butches and femmes meets publicly and they all sit around, and like the farm in China there's a set of rules: then there is this social dance of exchange.

And I'm starting to realize something here as I'd been thinking about this?

its the exchange social I have difficulties with with all people,

every time I leave my home its so difficult for me... but what's difficult is the exchanges...

so if I have difficulties in life already, how could I even step up to another level and be looking for a date and sit in a room and this exchange of timing will appear and I'll know already what my part is? I will be a mess.

In living life I get approach by men.

What it actually feels like is I'm being approach by a sells person...

and the male sells person won't lay off...

I'm warn out, drain, by a sells person male, its as if all my energy is drain from me and I'm a dead battery...

I fear actually this happening by butches, where my energy level will be drain,

this is the unique me though, its energy and how will my energy level rise and how will my energy level be drain...

well due to my experience being drain energy by men approaching me in life, I question it all,

this idea of strangers approaching and I'm wondering if two things...

Perhaps what my complaints are about men and fearing this from butches will I have the same draining effect energy due to a sells approach;

what if some people get a high off the sales approach and their energy rises while others gets drain,

yet in social its expected to go through this weather being approach or waiting to be approach (I'm realizing both areas isn't me, social isn't me, its all draining, meaning would I be drain there where you were awaiting to be seen...)

as I'm long winded here, writing... I guess I'm learning and I'm actually learning when reading your message and I thought it over more, and will continue thinking this more...

social exchange rules what about energy levels...

I keep saying I hate dating and I really never want to date; what is that really saying then...

however in your case you want to be seen and approach...

you want an exchange to be expected, I've notice in your message any other dynamic that you speak your drain for needing to explain yourself and you feel relax at the idea that there's no explaining when it comes to you and butches...

so you got me thinking, is it that in exchange in social that drains me does the opposite for you - you feed on the being seen in your expecting social exchange and this is your feeding energy risen in hoping to gain from as before many times you've drank from a social exchange dance, so then hoping to get again a repeat?

this can be understandable as you gain from the energy being charged in you,

but to expect is where I'm wondering about. What would happen if there's no expectations?

I read on-line, about there's more then one language of love...

To reach to the level of love from the beginning of a stranger and if there's a set of rules to abide by, like in your case I hear butches must approach first.

maybe these butches were fed up about exchanges rules.

so if there's a rules of exchange for real in the Butch Femme social, I'm naive,

I sense you know the social exchange and have your drawn toward a type of social exchange and these butches attack what you're drawn to of social exchange.

I avoid social exchanges of all kinds, and actually resent social exchanges,

I'll be thinking more on this;

still I think the ideal way what I read some where here on BFP is friends first then lover...

Something about friendship is appealing for me cause its being self with out any social exchange expectation dance...

Great post!

I think with each of us individually, there are ways we want and need to be treated and I think it is important to remember that not everyone will know how we expect to be treated...since it is different for each person.

There is not set way Femmes must be treated, or Butches must be treated. There is no handbook we all have, even though at times it may seem everyone else has the handbook but me.

I went to a party a few weeks ago with someone who wanted to date me. She pulled up outside, and texted me to come on out. I was surprised. I am used to a Butch who comes politely to the door to pick me up....but on more reflection, I realize that I was shocked because of my own expectations of what Butch is, and how I might act if I asked out someone Femme. I can't do this, all I can control is me. I can tell someone I want them to knock on the door to pick me up or not But unless I actually tell the person what is bothering me, as it sounds like the original poster did, then if I am angry, the only person I am hurting is me.

Am I making sense?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by KerrieH

I am one of the younger or newer butches that you mentioned BUT I do treat ladies with respect. I try to always open doors for her. I would NEVER dream of asking her to do anything like mentioned above.
It frustrates me that my generation and younger do not have these values and morals taught to them as they are growing up.
I was raised by a preacher to say yes ma'am, no ma'am, etc. he taught the boys to open doors for ladies. He taught them to be respectful no matter what. When I came out I adopted those values for me.
A promise to all the femme's reading this...i will NEVER treat a lady the way that some of you have been treated.

Ha, I was raised by a preacher too, maybe that ios why I love nice manners.

I hope I did not sound like I was slamming younger Butches, just that in some cases people need to be told how we expect to be treated.

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Ha, I was raised by a preacher too, maybe that ios why I love nice manners.

I hope I did not sound like I was slamming younger Butches, just that in some cases people need to be told how we expect to be treated.

Apoc, in this case I think slamming younger butches is a good thing. They need to learn!

[Just_G]

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Just_G

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

OK, I respect that.

But followed out to its logical conclusion, that leaves newer Butches who have not been around Femmes and have no idea how to act left out there with no guidance. Especially since we are all different people in different geographical locations with differing opinions of what is "good manners"

So if a Butch treats me in a way I don't like I just walk away rather than saying "hey, this is not ok for me and this is why?"

I never said Butches were a bunch of animals. I don't think that. And I think you know I don't think that . What would you do in the original poster's case?

[Novelafemme]

I think this comes down to a matter of symantics...slammed vs guidance. Two very different words with very different etemology.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

I think this comes down to a matter of symantics...slammed vs guidance. Two very different words with very different etemology.

I could have used a better word in my post. lol.

Just trying to say all Femmes are people and people are different and we each have our own list of what is "good manners" to us and we can't just expect all Butches to know what we want and need.

Ha, I used to expect a certain level of behavior, now I see it is not fair to have those expectations without sharing what those expectations are.

It's not a Butch/Femme thing. It's a how I need to be treated thing. What to me, is treating me with respect.

What is good manners in Upstate New York, for example is wayyyy different than what is considered good manners in Nashville.

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

It sucks that these particular butches chose to pimp you out for amenities.

My thoughts exactly **shakes head**

[Apocalipstic]

My apologies for even suggesting some Butches might now know any better and might appreciate guidance rather than anger.

I should have said people.

I think its good to let people know how we want to be treated rather than just being angry. Usually, when we talk about it we realize that the people who supposedly wronged us did not mean to and did not fully understand our boundaries.

[Mr Nice Guy]

I would never disrespect a woman. I always treat women how I would want to be treated. With kindness, respect and honesty. Oh and niceness.