It Hurts Me.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice Guy

Oh and niceness.

You are such a nice guy

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Just_G

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

I respect your opinion G. I didn't mean they need to be trained. I have seen a few people in my area treat their partner's worse than they would treat their dog. This is the type of behavior that is unacceptable to me.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by KerrieH

I respect your opinion G. I didn't mean they need to be trained. I have seen a few people in my area treat their partner's worse than they would treat their dog. This is the type of behavior that is unacceptable to me.

I wonder if they don't know any better or are just jerks? I try to assume they don't know any better, but maybe that is condescending? Not sure.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I wonder if they don't know any better or are just jerks? I try to assume they don't know any better, but maybe that is condescending? Not sure.

They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

Well put! Thank you.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

this.

i think generalizing to 'everyone needs to learn good manners' kind of ignores the fact that this way of treating femmes is rooted in male/masculine supremacy/patriarchy. i've never seen a butch be told to use their "masculine charms" or "masculine wiles" to get something.

yes, everyone needs to learn good manners, but we need to unlearn that way of relating to each other. it's not okay.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Firedance

So this is your part of The Dance... Don't ask me to deny who I am. Don't ask me to throw away the identity that I work so diligently to affirm in a world that keeps telling me I doesn't exist. Don't casually, thoughtlessly, dismiss my identity, and dishonor me by implying that my identity is less real than yours, simply because I can "pass" as straight!

I can handle coming out a dozen times a week. I can educate people all week long.

But you?
When YOU don't see me?
That hurts. ~Fire.

I agree with Snow and Aishah. I think this goes beyond having good manners and generalizing it to everyone. It is specifically about how femmes are treated at times by butches, FTMS, tran guys, other masculine types- and it's not about not opening a door or going up to get a drink for a femme.

I believe what the OP was talking about was dismissing a femme's identity.
And also as Snow says, "pimping women out."

[Toughy]

I went to a party a few weeks ago with someone who wanted to date me. She pulled up outside, and texted me to come on out.

Texting to come out is what I do with friends. Never ever would I do that if I was wanting to date someone or arriving to pick up a date. If this was a date, then I would be wondering lots of things about respect and how she treats dates or lovers or partners and other folks in general.

-------------------------
I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. It really does smack of the patriarchy to me. A lady does this and does not do that. Ladies don't show cleavage. Ladies don't act like sluts. Ladies don't swear. Ladies don't walk down the street smoking a cigarette. Ladies cannot open a door for themselves. Ladies do dress conservatively. Ladies wear dresses. Ladies are demur and soft-spoken. I don't think the word lady has come out of my mouth (or fingers) in years upon years.

I really don't treat femmes that much differently than I treat other human beings. I open building doors for everyone including men if I get there first. I open car doors for femmes if we are all dressed up and going on a date.....not likely to do it if we are going to the beach or a hike (but I will come to your door and not text you to come out). I say yes ma'am/sir, no ma'am/sir. I will give up my seat to an elder because I still have trouble remembering I am an elder....laughin....but not always anymore because I sometimes actually do need to sit for my own health reasons.

I think manners and politeness are universal and should be used by everyone. I don't know of a culture that says it's ok to push someone out of the way or knock them down to get ahead in the line. Saying excuse me if you bump someone is another polite thing. Not talking with your mouth full is universal. Burping is ok some places and not others.

Most manners are really just plain old common sense and come from a place of caring, respect and compassion. These things have nothing to do with age....they apply to all age groups.

enough blah blah blah from me

[Viola]

I want to clarify again...

message I wrote earlier, "If whom ever said yes, I would say would you like to play chess later, um, and perhaps get a chess game going at a later day, and its just chess..."

Well I want to clarify...

that makes it sound like I'm saying The end: after a chess game and I didn't mean it to sound that way...

What I meant to say is, maybe the word is stages...

Kind of like playing chess with a butch is like allows me to be a friend too...

cause I really like what I read a while back in the BFP about friends before lovers...

and then if things naturally moves to lover or if not naturally move to lover...

So I wasn't giving the impression of the end, after a chess game.

I just wanted to clarify this...

It is a challenge to articulate...

I will say this, reading here in BFP has really help me so far understand and learn...

Originally Posted by Sue

This is a long long message... Not really knowing how to be breif...

Firedance this is me thinking about your message more ok, so this isn't me attacking you in any way, I'm just analyzing that's all...

I want to add to this thought of dance, as believe it or not, after I wrote the other message, I kept saying to myself no that wasn't all of it...

It was as if I left out some things ok...

Firedance you got me on a roll here by your message, um, I feel for you going through this however as I read what you wrote which is basically about timing...

Firedance you expected to be seen, well I was thinking after I wrote my other message, actually as you expect, I'm feeling that that then is more of an exchange as well...

To expect anything from strangers is an exchange...

According to the scene that you have place, which is I'll put me in the scene ok...

Me femme, sitting alone and near at another table are a few butches sitting at a table...

First of all, I wouldn't expect anything at all... Nor have any plans, for isn't plans an exchange as well?

Also about timing who shall approach who and when, is it Femme's first or Butches first

Um, I'm into chess ok, so actually as I have difficulties with social there's a flip side of me, where I'm focus on interests, and boldly I might as the butches sitting at their table, ask if any of you play chess...

If whom ever said yes, I would say would you like to play chess later, um, and perhaps get a chess game going at a later day, and its just chess...

I mean the idea of this instant date and instant me, instantly being in a set of rules and an instant going out: the problem I have is, if it goes to fast, I can't digest analyze each step, which this creates not of rules but creates unique self with a unique situation.

So now lets say I said nothing to the butches at the other table, but I kept quiet, would I expect them to approach me, no,

would I expect to be seen no...

so what I gather from your message firedance is this dance between strangers, you be seen they approach,

so what were you feeling then when the butches wanted you to approach;

maybe you identify important in being seen and approach being taken from you, and you're going through an identification crisis.

Actually if I were sitting there quiet and the few butches at their table announce to me that I should approach them, I wouldn't approach them at all, cause how dare anyone tell me how to be with strangers.

I don't abide to any rules which includes any Butch Femme rules and so I don't even know all these rules actually so actually maybe or is it a culture...

Like ok if I visit China and I went to a small rice farm to stay for a month, would I cross rules with out knowing and why is this?

Cause I'll not know them, but I'm still me right?

Well cause I hadn't been in so call social Butch Femme areas offline, I'm not knowing the culture, so actually then I really don't have any expectations of any...

and maybe I be like this same if I stay at the rice farm, crossing rules and not even knowing,

By how I look, I really don't look of anything also, so if there's a look of a femme where a butch can tell from miles and miles away that there's a femme who's attracted toward butches, and you've figure how to do this and so then displeased when the butches hadn't approach; as if rules of expectations

or if there's a place where butches and femmes meets publicly and they all sit around, and like the farm in China there's a set of rules: then there is this social dance of exchange.

And I'm starting to realize something here as I'd been thinking about this?

its the exchange social I have difficulties with with all people,

every time I leave my home its so difficult for me... but what's difficult is the exchanges...

so if I have difficulties in life already, how could I even step up to another level and be looking for a date and sit in a room and this exchange of timing will appear and I'll know already what my part is? I will be a mess.

In living life I get approach by men.

What it actually feels like is I'm being approach by a sells person...

and the male sells person won't lay off...

I'm warn out, drain, by a sells person male, its as if all my energy is drain from me and I'm a dead battery...

I fear could the same happen if I be around butches, would my energy level will be drain,

this is the unique me though, its energy and how will my energy level rise and how will my energy level be drain...

well due to my experience being drain energy by men approaching me in life, I question it all,

this idea of strangers approaching and I'm wondering if two things...

Perhaps what my complaints are about men and fearing this from butches will I have the same draining effect energy due to a sells approach;

what if some people get a high off the sales approach and their energy rises while others gets drain,

yet in social its expected to go through this weather being approach or waiting to be approach (I'm realizing both areas isn't me, social isn't me, its all draining, meaning would I be drain there where you were awaiting to be seen...)

as I'm long winded here, writing... I guess I'm learning and I'm actually learning when reading your message and I thought it over more, and will continue thinking this more...

social exchange rules what about energy levels...

I keep saying I hate dating and I really never want to date; what is that really saying then...

however in your case you want to be seen and approach...

you want an exchange to be expected, I've notice in your message any other dynamic that you speak your drain for needing to explain yourself and you feel relax at the idea that there's no explaining when it comes to you and butches...

so you got me thinking, is it that in exchange in social that drains me does the opposite for you - you feed on the being seen in your expecting social exchange and this is your feeding energy risen in hoping to gain from as before many times you've drank from a social exchange dance, so then hoping to get again a repeat?

this can be understandable as you gain from the energy being charged in you,

but to expect is where I'm wondering about. What would happen if there's no expectations?

I read on-line, about there's more then one language of love...

To reach to the level of love from the beginning of a stranger and if there's a set of rules to abide by, like in your case I hear butches must approach first.

maybe these butches were fed up about exchanges rules.

so if there's a rules of exchange for real in the Butch Femme social, I'm naive,

I sense you know the social exchange and have your drawn toward a type of social exchange and these butches attack what you're drawn to of social exchange.

I avoid social exchanges of all kinds, and actually resent social exchanges,

I'll be thinking more on this;

still I think the ideal way what I read some where here on BFP is friends first then lover...

Something about friendship is appealing for me cause its being self with out any social exchange expectation dance...

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. It really does smack of the patriarchy to me. A lady does this and does not do that. Ladies don't show cleavage. Ladies don't act like sluts. Ladies don't swear. Ladies don't walk down the street smoking a cigarette. Ladies cannot open a door for themselves. Ladies do dress conservatively. Ladies wear dresses. Ladies are demur and soft-spoken.

I find it interesting how much distaste out there for Lady. I don't use it, yet I know many women who do, I know many gay women who use it regularly. But still it's not common in the gay scene. I went to a lesbian friendly workshop run by a friend of mine. In one of her talks she called us 'you guys' and one of her co-organisers (straight) corrected her with 'ladies'.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I find it interesting how much distaste out there for Lady. I don't use it, yet I know many women who do, I know many gay women who use it regularly. But still it's not common in the gay scene. I went to a lesbian friendly workshop run by a friend of mine. In one of her talks she called us 'you guys' and one of her co-organisers (straight) corrected her with 'ladies'.

ok..............you reminded me of when I do use it.............it's when I am jokingly sarcastically calling a butch or femme friend(s) a 'gay lady' because of something they are wearing or said or did.....I know, I know, not politically correct but I am like that sometimes.....

(like when a b/f couple end up wearing almost identical clothes and it does happen....they be gay ladies or the ponytail sticking out of the neon orange baseball cap with matching neon orange shorts and an orange striped polo shirt...she be a gay lady)

[Apocalipstic]

LMAO Toughy! Sounds like a University of Tennessee women's basketball game.

I actually do say "lady" for example when I don't know someone's name...ie "the nice lady who helped my aunt".
or the "nice check out lady".

It is a Southern thing, but I probably do need to reconsider its use.

It KILLS me when I go out to eat with obvious Dykes and we get called "ladies"...especially when the wait-person is also obviously a Lesbian. lmaorof.

[BullDog]

Um... when my femme gf and I go to Lady Vols games we are both wearing orange. She likes the term lady for herself, I do not.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Oh my GAY! is the South ever notorious for how women or female bodied folks are addressed. I want to rip eyeballs out when I get the honey, lady, girl, sweetie or missy.

I have a name use it, if not don't.

Arghhh

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Oh my GAY! is the South ever notorious for how women or female bodied folks are addressed. I want to rip eyeballs out when I get the honey, lady, girl, sweetie or missy.

I have a name use it, if not don't.

Arghhh

Eeeek, I say all of those things. My personal fav being "Little Missy"

Men get called honey and sweetie too though. Does that help??

Admittedly, a lot of it has to do with me going blank on people's names. lol.

[Viola]

Hi Apocalipstic,

This is true how can anyone know, however I'm wondering about a few things.

This is me analyzing ok: the word natural and the word practice.

I'm making up words in order to see if it helps me articulate.

True no one knows, however when naturally needs are met with out practicing,

About the party you were with a date and butch text you -

Let me share with you something I recently discover ok...

Space...

each of us has space. each of us has needs with in our space, either to share, or to have privacy.

Then there's abandonment, invasion, in space...

what I hear from your message is this sense of both...

I'm going to read tones ok:

The tone I'm getting from your message is this sense of abandonment with in your space and yet now your wondering if you're invasion in butch's space due to expectation with in your needs in space...

I'm learning too ok, and actually I'm learning alot from this thread...

I feel expectations when you sense a need, isn't the same of when I was writing earlier about expectations in exchange...

I see needs as more a relationship, vs when exchange even though one could see this also as needs, (you know what I think I need more range of vocabulary here...)

I sense you need from your butch and text was abandoning your need with the space you're sharing with butch.

Now yes if you communicate to butch about your need, a couple of things could happen.

Butch listens and applies however this is where tone is read.

Is it practice or natural...

However another question what is error?

or is error info about language of needs, cause to correct error how can correction be natural? so maybe need to read tone here as well...

If its practice and not natural then its not in the same language of needs...

Long term relationships: years of being together: I observe relationships around me: what ever been practice never becomes apart of but only has to be work, and its work...

Its not natural...

I'll share me: ok for example I love playing chess. so I'm an extreme visual analytical person ok...

So I could say I'm a visual analytical femme.

Now lets say (I'm making this up ok) lets say I went out with a butch who finds my visual analytical mind slow and boring, cause this part of me effects other areas such as verbal speed socail...

Now if I ask the butch to pracise allowing my slow analytical digesting each stage to practice around me to allow me space in the butch's fast environment as I can be slow and inward and quiet as I observe, and the butch was willing to practice this,, how long will this last, this practice when its probably so heavy for the butch to carry and its work then..., as well as its work for me too...

So what I'm wondering even though there's text and who knows what other kind of devises someday we will have: listening to your message to the tone, if you do make your needs known - sense the tone - if the butch is naturally or practising...

Some times we want so badly that we'll settle for practice, but how long can a relationship be working full time,

see in your situation you're on a date, then in a date is sensing natural or practice...

practise is exchange, natural is relationship.

I'm learning this too ok, about space, and the different languages there are about space.

it can happen the other way around, a butch can being doing things for a femme that doesn't even need those things, yet she might find herself practicing to need those things, that's not natural...

I saw this on line about maybe its 5 different language of love, forgiveness, and... not sure what else, but it got me thinking, if there's 5 languages and maybe even more.,

what is your language and is it the same language as to the butch your dating or is this a sign there's different language in this sign that you felt when butch text you....

if you could write the ideal butch for you what would this language look like, and if you go a step further and write the errors the butch would make, how would those errors look, for you then to communicate to to make known for natural to continue...

cause what is errors really ...

if long term relationship practice its stress,

the more natural is in a relationship the more ease relaxing and harmony.

this is me analyzing,

practice vs natural...

what is your language of love, forgiveness and... is it the same as your date? or so different that how can see and understand and if can see and understand, still can ever be natural or will it always be work...

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Great post!

I think with each of us individually, there are ways we want and need to be treated and I think it is important to remember that not everyone will know how we expect to be treated...since it is different for each person.

There is not set way Femmes must be treated, or Butches must be treated. There is no handbook we all have, even though at times it may seem everyone else has the handbook but me.

I went to a party a few weeks ago with someone who wanted to date me. She pulled up outside, and texted me to come on out. I was surprised. I am used to a Butch who comes politely to the door to pick me up....but on more reflection, I realize that I was shocked because of my own expectations of what Butch is, and how I might act if I asked out someone Femme. I can't do this, all I can control is me. I can tell someone I want them to knock on the door to pick me up or not But unless I actually tell the person what is bothering me, as it sounds like the original poster did, then if I am angry, the only person I am hurting is me.

Am I making sense?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Eeeek, I say all of those things. My personal fav being "Little Missy"

Men get called honey and sweetie too though. Does that help??

Admittedly, a lot of it has to do with me going blank on people's names. lol.

No it doesn't help, it's enabling the shenanigans that you can cross boundaries.

I don't want to walk into a place of business and be spoken to like I'm in pre-school.

The feminist in me SCREAMS when someone dumbs me down or dismisses my wajt with a sugar or a sweetie after I've asked for something 60 x's...

[Corkey]

I use "folks", leaves the gender identifying the hell out of simple conversations and no one gets their feathers, boxers, panties, commando pants, ruffled.

[Martina]

Bears repeating

Originally Posted by Toughy

-------------------------
I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. . . .

I really don't treat femmes that much differently than I treat other human beings. . . .

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Oh my GAY! is the South ever notorious for how women or female bodied folks are addressed. I want to rip eyeballs out when I get the honey, lady, girl, sweetie or missy.

I have a name use it, if not don't.

Arghhh

I totally agree!

Unless you are my lover or my mother, do not call me honey or sweetie or any other term that intimates a level of familiarity that we do not possess!

I particularly hate it at the doctor or dentist office.