It Hurts Me.

[JustJo]

So I have to pop in and confess that I have a terrible "hun" habit from years and years of bartending and waitressing....as in "what can I get for you hun?"

You're all giving me something to think about.....thanks.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Sue

Hi Apocalipstic,

This is true how can anyone know, however I'm wondering about a few things.

This is me analyzing OK: the word natural and the word practice.

I'm making up words in order to see if it helps me articulate.

True no one knows, however when naturally needs are met with out practicing,

About the party you were with a date and butch text you -

Let me share with you something I recently discover OK...

Space...

each of us has space. each of us has needs with in our space, either to share, or to have privacy.

Then there's abandonment, invasion, in space...

what I hear from your message is this sense of both...

I'm going to read tones ok:

The tone I'm getting from your message is this sense of abandonment with in your space and yet now your wondering if you're invasion in butch's space due to expectation with in your needs in space...

I'm learning too OK, and actually I'm learning alot from this thread...

I feel expectations when you sense a need, isn't the same of when I was writing earlier about expectations in exchange...

I see needs as more a relationship, vs when exchange even though one could see this also as needs, (you know what I think I need more range of vocabulary here...)

I sense you need from your butch and text was abandoning your need with the space you're sharing with butch.

Now yes if you communicate to butch about your need, a couple of things could happen.

Butch listens and applies however this is where tone is read.

Is it practice or natural...

However another question what is error?

or is error info about language of needs, cause to correct error how can correction be natural? so maybe need to read tone here as well...

If its practice and not natural then its not in the same language of needs...

Long term relationships: years of being together: I observe relationships around me: what ever been practice never becomes apart of but only has to be work, and its work...

Its not natural...

I'll share me: OK for example I love playing chess. so I'm an extreme visual analytical person OK...

So I could say I'm a visual analytical femme.

Now lets say (I'm making this up ok) lets say I went out with a butch who finds my visual analytical mind slow and boring, cause this part of me effects other areas such as verbal speed socail...

Now if I ask the butch to practice allowing my slow analytical digesting each stage to practice around me to allow me space in the butch's fast environment as I can be slow and inward and quiet as I observe, and the butch was willing to practice this,, how long will this last, this practice when its probably so heavy for the butch to carry and its work then..., as well as its work for me too...

So what I'm wondering even though there's text and who knows what other kind of devises someday we will have: listening to your message to the tone, if you do make your needs known - sense the tone - if the butch is naturally or practising...

Some times we want so badly that we'll settle for practice, but how long can a relationship be working full time,

see in your situation you're on a date, then in a date is sensing natural or practice...

practice is exchange, natural is relationship.

I'm learning this too OK, about space, and the different languages there are about space.

it can happen the other way around, a butch can being doing things for a femme that doesn't even need those things, yet she might find herself practicing to need those things, that's not natural...

I saw this on line about maybe its 5 different language of love, forgiveness, and... not sure what else, but it got me thinking, if there's 5 languages and maybe even more.,

what is your language and is it the same language as to the butch your dating or is this a sign there's different language in this sign that you felt when butch text you....

if you could write the ideal butch for you what would this language look like, and if you go a step further and write the errors the butch would make, how would those errors look, for you then to communicate to to make known for natural to continue...

cause what is errors really ...

if long term relationship practice its stress,

the more natural is in a relationship the more ease relaxing and harmony.

this is me analyzing,

practice vs natural...

what is your language of love, forgiveness and... is it the same as your date? or so different that how can see and understand and if can see and understand, still can ever be natural or will it always be work...

This really resonated with me Sue. especially the part about relationships being stressful and how our entire existence is a language and we all speak different ones.

As a teenager I was not allowed to leave the house with a date who did not come to the door, so my expectation now is that someone will do that now too, though there is no set rule that says it will happen.

I was not really interested in the person I went to the party with anyway and was only going out because my roommate and friends said I was being lazy not dating more and that I should go. I was not in the right frame of mind to start with, which I am sure influenced how I felt about her manners.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

No it doesn't help, it's enabling the shenanigans that you can cross boundaries.

I don't want to walk into a place of business and be spoken to like I'm in pre-school.

The feminist in me SCREAMS when someone dumbs me down or dismisses my wajt with a sugar or a sweetie after I've asked for something 60 x's...

I am fabulous at customer service (and waiting tables) and never ever use words like that to excuse poor performance. Unprofessional indeed!

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I totally agree!

Unless you are my lover or my mother, do not call me honey or sweetie or any other term that intimates a level of familiarity that we do not possess!

I particularly hate it at the doctor or dentist office.

I particularly hate everything at the dentists office, but somehow find it comforting when my hygienist calls me sweetie .

Originally Posted by Sue

Hello Apocalipstic and Firedance,

Maybe I need to clarifications many times - from other message I wrote,

Please don't take my messages as facts, its only me sensing tones and growing myself...

Also I'm thinking more...

Ok, perhaps even cycling...

Firedance you wanted to be seen and approach by butches...

Apocalipstic you wanted your butch date to approach you in space you two share through connection share and not abandonment, text felt like abandonment.

Actually oh and please forgive me if I don't accurately describe your situation please use interpretation OK if needed...

Perhaps what I was sensing is language needs also dance, and is it including spirit soul in dance vs shallow...

Firedance your language is valid: you wanting to be seen and approach, and you were emotional when butches spoken their language, reversing approach.

so I didn't want to sound I was dismissing your language needs. Maybe it sounded this way as I was describing the tone of dance.

Its that some times we focus more on human worship through perfecting laws that then denies the spirit soul, and a dance can inter human worship through perfecting through shallow exchange.

so maybe I'm cycling here,

Apocalipstic please I hope not to dismiss your language of needs,

which I was sharing in another message about tones of shallow dance that dismiss spirit soul when I was responding to message in relations of butches demanding femme to approach them for once...

Actually in this tone I sense a shallow dance, not really sure if the butches were speaking of their language of needs but more speaking of being fed up...

that's another area of writing is when we're unbalance and how that effects our projection outwardly that even language of needs aren't even clear, but its more a shallow of greed a dance of shallow of blind toward pleasures empty pride follows condemnation death. or another word depart from each other, through the death of pride from the growth of condemnation...

two things I think I'm speaking about with tones, and now add third which is unbalance that effects projection that can confuse language needs even to self...

One is about dance and is it shallow or includes the spirit soul,

the other is languages and to learn your own need language and to able read other need languages so then can sense either practice or natural.

and now is the third tone: about butches wants femme to approach is that from their unbalance unclear language that they don't even know they're own language of needs that then led to their being fed up, I'm referring to message that firedance wrote and how the butches were toward her...

and or if butches wants femmes to approach them, if this is their language need then express it to a femme who wants to approach butches, I'm sure this can happen and a dance of spirit soul however in clear need language that harmony ...

So I think what's going on is articulating more then one tones...

To clarify...

Tone one: does the dance include spirit soul or is the dance shallow?

Tone two: Femme Butch is the need language natural or a form of practice work

Tone three: how does the unbalance project their unclear language of needs that's not clear to themselves that led them to feel fed up.

I want more than anything for the dance to include spirit and soul! I love how you put that.

Originally Posted by Jess

Y'all can excuse me or decide to discharge me now, but I am one of those Southerners who do use the familiars allowed me by the gracious women in my life, such as but not limited to: Darlin, Hon, Sugah, Sweetheart, Dearest, etc. AND by all means, when I do say, "you ladies, or "dear lady" I mean it from the deepest sense of respect, as "those" ladies have shown me that they are, indeed, Ladies.

I am only speaking for myself when I say that I am more than a little tired of hearing the ongoing bashing of manners and mannerisms that seem to be all but lost in today's society, save living alive and and well in the hearts of well intended Southern folk and moreover, country folk . It does my heart good to put a smile on a "lady's" face by addressing her as Miss__________ and tipping my hat. More often than not, I am met with a gracious smile or a soft blush and I very VERY much am pleased to have spent one ample millisecond of my energy adding a smidge of charm to an otherwise unextraordinary , uneventful day.

If a woman does not wish to be referred to as Lady, or any other familiars, it becomes very clear within about 13 seconds. I will forevermore, refrain from doing so. However, I don't think that woman should get to speak for any other women who actually find it endearing. That to me, is what makes a Lady a Lady. It is her ability to discern for herself and NOT impose upon others.


My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Ladies.. Gents.. Folks.. tips hat...

I have always been called Miss and my last name, even whe I was little. I am used to it. I also have no problem with being called a "lady", though I am not one really unless I need to be. lol.

Maybe it is our Food and Beverage background?

Originally Posted by desd

Are you saying that us Upstate New Yorkers have undesirable manners Apocalipstic?

Just wayyyy different expectations of what is and is not good manners and how to communicate. What I think is rude is wayy different than in other parts of the country and I always try to keep Cultural differences in mind when engaging in conversation within people from other places...even inside the US.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Female bodied does NOT equate to "Lady" don't matter if you're in Mississippi or New York its NOT OK to impose sugary words on them (female bodied folk)

Not everyone is a:

"little lady"

"missy"

"sweetie"

"honey pie"

Familiars are not something that we should have to endure to be seen "as proper folk"

This isn't the 1800's

OMG, I like Little Missy, but for some reason Little Lady irks me.

Really, honestly...and I've thought about this a lot...it mostly irks me if a man calls me one of those names, but not always. It depends on who it is and context.


Whewwwwww!

[weatherboi]

i watched one of my cooks try and get a server to show him some cleavage before he would put her food in the window for her. Of, course she didn't, she was appalled. Even grosser he was married with kids. I fired him along with two other line cooks that were involved in onlooking. Yuck right!!!

For me, manners are global not regional so using familiars in any situation is not always popular or sensitive. Most people i attended college with were from different countries and some things were ok and some were not.

i have seen gay men objectify women they were with this way. i have seen a woman send her girlfriend to get them free drinks when i was at a festival. This seemed to be consented to by the girlfriend but i did not know them. i know it happens probably a lot in the LGBTIQ community.

[ruffryder]

Firedance you should pick a bone with those butches or whoever else that does that to you and you have every right!

People who do what you mentioned need to learn some respect for femmes and females in general.

You are right about the dance and having each others back. If you are going to have a butches back and stand up for them and be there for them they should do the same for you and not add to the damn shambles of hate and not treating a woman right. There are butches and others (male and female) of all ages that would never do this. To those you encounter that do, put them in their place!

I like this idea by JAGG:

Originally Posted by JAGG

... if it ever happens again, turn to the butch who said it and say, you're a WOMEN you go do it yourself...