Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in How We Do It?

[Medusa]

So, I'm curious about something.

Ive had this discussion with a lot of my girlfriends over the years and this even came up on the Dash site a few times way back when.

Do you think that Femmes, Butches, Transguys, and Transwomen build friendships differently?

Namely, I remember way back in the day that Daddy Rhon made a comment about how Butches were "little islands unto themselves" when it came to friendships.

I'll put a poll up to see if we can tease this out a little better but Im curious as to what your perceptions are around how we build friendships. Maybe there truly are no differences in how we do it with relation to gender?

For example, do you feel like Femmes generally connect with their girlfriends more often through text or phone? Do Butches really "hate" the phone in general (talking tongue in cheek here)?

Give me a few minutes for the poll and I'll come back with more thoughts...


POLL ALLOWS FOR MULTIPLE SELECTIONS!

[Julie]

I have noticed throughout the years and the differences between my butch partners and myself. I find it necessary to connect with my girls. It feeds my soul and allows *us* to process and share moments in our lives. It also gives us the space to laugh, cry and scream with one another. I have noticed that my partners (present and past) do not have these same type of relationships.

For example a conversation between Dreamer and I.

Dreamer - So darling did you talk to *** today?
Julie - Yes baby, we talked and I also talked to *** and ***.
Julie - What about you? Have you connected with ***
Dreamer - No, I really need to do that!

Why is that?

For me, and it doesn't have to be daily - but I thrive on those relationships I have developed with my femme sisters. I share my day with them. I also share my day with Dreamer, but our conversations are different. I wish Dreamer would have those same type of relationships with other butches that I have with Femme's. I think it's really healthy to have other people to process with or laugh with, other than your partner.

Just my thoughts!

[Jar]

I have a variety of friends ... butches, FTMs, femmes and straight friends. I think they're all a little different when I think about it. I tend to be a good listener to my femme friends because I think they talk things out more than my other friends and the talks seem to a more intimate. If there's something that makes me sad, I'll talk to a femme friend but when I'm angry I'll probably talk to a butch/FTM friend.

With my butch and FTM friends it's more like "hey dude! How you doing?" and we talk about stuff, but not feelings, emotions .... etc. I love my straight friends but I don't talk about my personal life in much detail so having friends in this community is really important to me.

As for the telephone, I can talk all day on my cell but when I'm home I hate the phone (well, there are exceptions )

I wouldn't really describe myself as an "island". Though I do tend to work out problems on my own or make decisions on my own without reaching out, I do think I'm pretty much an open book. I think communication is key to any relationship, be it friendship or a romantic relationship.

I'll probably be back after I think about it more but that's my first take on it ......

[Kelt]

This looks really interesting, *subscribing*. Is this poll one or multiple answers?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Kelt

This looks really interesting, *subscribing*. Is this poll one or multiple answers?

You can pick multiple answers!!

[Linus]

For me friendship is one of those greatly desired things but often fleeting. I have a few friends from high school that I could meet up today and continue conversations we started ages ago. But we don't talk regularly (unless Facebook discussions count). I think our social interactions have changed a lot and phone conversations aren't the only common mechanism (at least not for me).

Part of this is probably from my lack of creating strong bonds with people as a teenager (I never had a friend, really, until I was 17 or thereabouts -- and those friends I still have today but talk via facebook and when I travel there).

Also, I'd point out that transpersons come in a variety of flavours (much like Butch and Femme do) but know that the poll options are limited and we're just too varied a bunch to do the whole poll idea full justice.

[Cin]

I don't like talking on the phone. I call my mother once a week that's enough. I like doing stuff with my friends. That's what friends are for. At least for me. If somebody has a problem or needs to talk then of course I'm there for that. And if I have a problem and I need an ear I will talk to someone I trust. But generally speaking I don't want to just chat. At least not JUST chat. Conversation in the course of doing something else absolutely. But just talk for the sake of talking not my thing. Probably a good thing too, because I'm terrible at just talking. I tend to talk about stuff that bores people. Then their eyes glaze over and I feel guilty. But if I have to listen to conversations about so and so and his mother's aunt's cousin's uncle who cheats on his wife and the wife knows and puts up with it and the like for too long I will slump to the ground and curl in a ball. I'm a terrible conversationalist. I missed out on that gene. Thankfully I like doing stuff so I can be somewhat useful as friend.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Linus

Also, I'd point out that transpersons come in a variety of flavours (much like Butch and Femme do) but know that the poll options are limited and we're just too varied a bunch to do the whole poll idea full justice.

Agreed! I was trying to figure out a way to make space for all the various flavors of Butch, Femme, and Trans folks and it was becoming a mess. Hope folks will forgive the clunky poll!!

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I don't like talking on the phone. I call my mother once a week that's enough. I like doing stuff with my friends. That's what friends are for. At least for me. If somebody has a problem or needs to talk then of course I'm there for that. And if I have a problem and I need an ear I will talk to someone I trust. But generally speaking I don't want to just chat. At least not JUST chat. Conversation in the course of doing something else absolutely. But just talk for the sake of talking not my thing. Probably a good thing too, because I'm terrible at just talking. I tend to talk about stuff that bores people. Then their eyes glaze over and I feel guilty. But if I have to listen to conversations about so and so and his mother's aunt's cousin's uncle who cheats on his wife and the wife knows and puts up with it and the like for too long I will slump to the ground and curl in a ball. I'm a terrible conversationalist. I missed out on that gene. Thankfully I like doing stuff so I can be somewhat useful as friend.

You bring up a thought for me, Miss Tick!

I've noticed that my conversations with my girlfriends have really evolved over the years with regard to what it is we talk most about.

In my very early 20s, I tended to have friends where we ended up talking about people we knew, events, etc.

Now in my later years, most of the conversations I have with my closest Femme friends end up being about concepts. We process relationship stuff, gender stuff, our histories as women, politics, even spirituality. Don't get me wrong, we do enjoy the occasional foray into food and crafting

[Sparkle]

As to friendships and gender identity...

I'm reluctant to make any generalizations about the ways in which Butches/Femmes/Transfolks value, build or maintain friendships because I believe our differences (as regards relationship building) fall less along gender lines and more along personality/character trait lines.

But I'm really interested to read other peoples opinions and experiences.

I'm a Femme and I have a lot of friends dotted all over the world and I have a small group of close friends with whom I bare my soul, also dotted all over the world.

The level of closeness of my friendships is not a direct corollary to geographic nearness. A couple of my closest friends live far-far-away and a couple live right here in town.

I tend to keep in touch with my people who are far away via social media, email and occasional video chats; with those people I know that even though we don't see each other very often, our connection is strong. I am indebted to the WWW for giving me the tools to stay close to those people.

When I need to talk about something, or want to be social, I prefer to do it in person with my closest people and I'm fortunate enough to have close people who live locally, so it's easy to do that.

But I HATE talking on the phone. hate-hate-hate it.

I spend a lot of time talking on the phone and/or schmoozing people in my jobs, the last thing I want to do when I get home is talk on the phone or have to sustain a conversation with someone that I am not close to.

Most of my closest people know that the best way to reach me is via text message or email. Text communications feel a little less demanding and invasive to me, they give me some space and time to reply. I can finish cooking dinner or watching a program or reading a chapter - before I reply. I can really take some time to think about how I feel, what I want or how I wish to reply - before I do.

Time feels so precious and so fleeting some days that I'm relieved to put my phone on the charger in the other room and be unencumbered for a couple of hours.

This feeling of time being fleeting has also changed the way I view my friendships.

I have more delineated circles of relationships now...(than I used to)

My core people (my partner, my siblings, my best friends) this is a pretty small group - 10 or less people.

And then concentric circles that include friends, family members, colleagues that I feel more or less connected to.

I choose to invest my time and love and support and energy in that core circle of people --- I still like a lot of other people and consider them friends but I don't invest as much in our relationships as I might have in the past.

[Little Fish]

Medusa, I think you raise an interesting topic here--I know I've had the same conversation with both butch and femme friends over the years. While I don't have a lot of time right now, I'll share a few quick thoughts:

-all but two of my queer/gay friends are femme or *not* butch--and those two are both hetero-identified trans men

-I'd like more butch friends but find connecting with them (literally, as in actually *finding* them) challenging (are we *that* rare??!)

-this same conversation came up between spritzerj and myself--she put it best I think..when explaining why butches seem to have more femme friends and vice versa she said, "even in our platonic friendships, the pairing of our butch and femme energies underscore the complimentary nature and goodness of our fit"...that really resonated with me

-my concern for butches...do we become we socially isolated in the same way hetero males do when they marry? I watch over and over how husbands lose their friends after they marry women--anyone have this concern?

Good poll Medusa, keep us posted--thank you

[Blaze]

Hmm, got me to thinking too Medusa, Don't know if that's a good thing or bad ~chuckles~.
Younger years, All my friends were Femme's and I was the one they came a calling to work out things, fix things and just hang out with... My 3 butch friends were the one's I hung out with to talk shop, sports, and woman....

Thirty somethings were, still my 3 close butch friends, and the hand full of Femme's that counted on me to listen and fix things but not so much hang out anymore because they had partners.

Once I moved from home, I met some friends, but don't keep in touch like I should, kinda hermit myself is how I look at it. Email some of Island friends but I think I changed and moved on or they changed, just ain't figured it out and probably won't put much effort into figuring it out either.

Now... My socializing is work friends and I keep it at work... Yes I am a HERMIT lol No Island, jus a Hermit.

I am sociable when around people but I like quiet, and I like alone time because I have to act happy and giddy at work all day, so when I get home I leave the act outside and debrief and relax....

I am looking forward to the tally! Thank you for making this thread as it has made me realize that I do need to come back to society as I always tend to disappear...

[Cin]

It’s funny when I first responded in this thread I totally wasn’t thinking about my response in terms of gender nor my friends in terms of gender either. Reexamining I see that I have not had many butch friends over the years. Some femmes, but most of my friends have been hetero men or women. My two best friends in the world for years were a straight guy and a straight woman. My longest friendship is with a straight woman who I’ve been friends with since we were 11. Now that we live in different countries the friendship isn’t like it was but it’s solid and has proved its ability to stand the test of time.

I don’t think the types of conversations I engage in have changed over the years. I never was much of a conversationalist. I mean I’ll talk your ear off on a subject I’m interested in but that’s not a conversation. It seems I either talk or I listen. There are very few people in my life who have the same conversational interests that I do. There are some and I cherish my conversations with them. But there are a lot of different pieces that need to fit to make a friendship. Conversational compatibility is only one part. And for me not that big of one. Common interests in activities is an important aspect, a sense of humor, an inherent kindness and compassion, a non judgmental outlook and then there is this intangible sensuality that I look at as platonic attraction.

I'm not sure if how I do friendships has much to do with my gender. I don't know if my gender has anything to do with the choices i make about my friends. But I have a way of looking at the world that is reminiscent of a social scientist, it was probably my calling and had I had a different kind of life it might be my career. This is the kind of thing I am curious about. I am fascinated by all aspects and ways of examining the possible causes and effects of stuff. So I will watch this thread with interest.

[Soft*Silver]

it is actually comforting to see that I am not the only femme who hates talking on the phone. I go to great lengths now to avoid it. I even have a message on my shop phone that I will not answer the phone and that they can leave a message and I will text them the answer. At first my customers thought this a bit odd (and it is) but they find other things about me that they like and those weigh in more than the phone oddity.

I have gone thru bouts of few friends, but I see those as my difficult times. I am best when I am part of a collective of familiar people. I have some long term friendships (one has been my best friend since the first day of first grade. We celebrated our 50th year anniversary this year!) and some very deep and rich friendships that have just started a little over a year ago.

I am not a chatterer too! I dont do small talk. I like silence and being able to be with my friends as we focus on something together, from women's issues, to horses, to fashion, to cooking and baking, to spirituality.

Most of my friends are female. Most are straight. Or bi. A few are lesbian. Several are transgendered or transsexual. I can do easy friendships with femmes but I tend to get initially, stupidly stuttery and flirtatious with butch friends.I dont do that with men, trans or otherwise. Something about butches that just make me feel like a teenager again...if someone is patient, and waits out my ackwardness and actualy embarassment over this, I can develop deep friendships because this stage does end.

I have some wonderful friendships with gay males. Dont cal me a fag hag tho. Its not that kind of friendship.

my best of all friends are my animals tho...truthfully. More loyalty and love than i can get from any person...

[Kobi]

I am not sure how to answer this because I am one of those people who sees femme, butch, trans as id's not genders.

I am butch and female. I see my friendship style as female in origin not butch inspired. My closest relationships are with femmes, female id people, and straight women. The style is more intimate and communication focused.

My buddies are male id, straight male, gay male and our friendships are more about stuff and activities.

As for changes over the years, I chalk them up to life stages. Way back when it was about career/family, and now it is about retirement, parenting became parenting your parents, accumulation of stuff has become simplicity, form and function has been replaced with meaning.

As for the mode of communication, I prefer the personal stuff i.e. face to face, or cam to cam, or telephone. I am less happy with typing and am not fond of texting.

[Nat]

Awesome thread idea subscribed! Was just discussing this topic today with a butch friend. I guess more specifically if butches tended to possibly be more likely to be loners than femmes. And why local b/f community is so small.

[Gráinne]

I really hope I don't get my head taken off for this. I am absolutely not equating Butch=male or Femme=female.

Interestingly, my son (13) and I got into a discussion this morning about how his sister operates around her friends, and how he acts around his. He's noticed that my daughter is all text, text, text or call, call, call, or talk, talk talk!

His idea of "communication"? Wrestling. They settle any disputes, pissing contests, etc. by wrestling, and all is settled.

I bring that up because I'm sincerely asking if anyone has ever noticed that though many Butches identify as female, and the same with many Femmes, if Butches tend to communicate much more non-verbally than Femmes. I've noticed that many of my Femme friends are, shall we say, verbose, and some of the Butches that I have met are not.

And if Butches and Femmes, even if just a few, follow the same dynamics as my son and daughter, does that imply that social conditioning plays a much bigger role in communication than biology?

I hope to hell that wasn't an offensive question.

[Dreamer]

I have read this thread and what Julie had to say about our conversations, and she is right, I will ask her each day who she has spoken to and how they are doing and yes when she asks me the same question I will usually respond with No I have not but I should get onto that. I have sat here going through my mind why I do not tend to call people and many thoughts have gone through it.

For me I have a few people I would call close friends. When I was living in San Francisco we would get together and I had an amazing time just hanging out, getting to know and having fun with them. When I had to leave and come back to Australia it was like coming back to another world, San Francisco was the first place I could truly be who I was, I let the butch out and I felt alive and finally free to be me. Then when I came back here it was totally different and it was hard, I felt like part of me was left in the States and it was only when I went back to visit or Julie came to me that I felt reconnected to myself.

I did not want to let go of the friendships I had made in the States but due to some personal situations and the fact that I no longer felt that I was doing anything that was worth talking about (at least from my side) I let them slide. I own that and I am sorry that I did, but hopefully that will change once I return.

Most of the friends I made were actually other butches/Ftm’s, I was able to relax around them a lot more and being new to the butch/femme dynamic I must say I was pretty shy around the femmes.
I am really glad that Julie has other femmes that she can talk to, that she can talk to them about anything and that they can help her still feel connected and remind her of who she is, she needs that occasionally.

[pajama]

I'm a hermit. I have lots of acquaintances that I will talk about anything with (because I don't hold much back). But when I am really at odds with myself and need a support system, I would only turn to two, maybe three people.

I HATE...nay LOATHE...talking on a telephone. But I will hold elaborate text conversations with you if you like. I do not require speaking to my friends regularly.

I've never made close friendships. Not when I was straight, not lesbian, not femme, not queer, I just don't make/require close friends. I usually stay in my head. So I don't know that I will help with decyphering the butch/femme friendship dilemma.

But it's been interesting so far.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

But I HATE talking on the phone. hate-hate-hate it.

I spend a lot of time talking on the phone and/or schmoozing people in my jobs, the last thing I want to do when I get home is talk on the phone or have to sustain a conversation with someone that I am not close to.

Most of my closest people know that the best way to reach me is via text message or email. Text communications feel a little less demanding and invasive to me, they give me some space and time to reply. I can finish cooking dinner or watching a program or reading a chapter - before I reply. I can really take some time to think about how I feel, what I want or how I wish to reply - before I do.

Time feels so precious and so fleeting some days that I'm relieved to put my phone on the charger in the other room and be unencumbered for a couple of hours.

This, this, this!

I too spend a lot of my day on the phone and I don't want to spend a lot of my night on the phone also, even if it's with people I enjoy conversing with. I've also, from work, gotten into the habit of multitasking when I'm on the phone but most folks don't like being on speakerphone (understandably, as I hate it too but I'm not sure if it's a speakerphone issue or a phone issue) and that's the best way to get me for a long conversation. Let me be busy while we talk. Trust me, I'm listening.

Originally Posted by Gráinne

Interestingly, my son (13) and I got into a discussion this morning about how his sister operates around her friends, and how he acts around his. He's noticed that my daughter is all text, text, text or call, call, call, or talk, talk talk!

His idea of "communication"? Wrestling. They settle any disputes, pissing contests, etc. by wrestling, and all is settled.

I bring that up because I'm sincerely asking if anyone has ever noticed that though many Butches identify as female, and the same with many Femmes, if Butches tend to communicate much more non-verbally than Femmes. I've noticed that many of my Femme friends are, shall we say, verbose, and some of the Butches that I have met are not.

And if Butches and Femmes, even if just a few, follow the same dynamics as my son and daughter, does that imply that social conditioning plays a much bigger role in communication than biology?

I hope to hell that wasn't an offensive question.

Social conditioning does play into it, as do personal traits.

I've got male and/or masculine energied friends that talk their feelings and emotions out and express their feelings verbally as well as physically with their friends but they are far in between. I can count them on one hand.

I have one straight ally that I've had in my life since middle school. She's my best friend and will be forever and a day and we always pick up right where we left off like time just dissolved away. She doesn't always understand me like a femme friend would but she's super supportive and as 'there' for me as a mother and stepmother, student, daughter and employee can be there for someone. We communicate best in very long emails due to time constraints on both sides. We say all we need to say at that moment and the other gets the chance to really soak in what is being said and what is being asked of them, because when we communicate, we're asking something of the other person. Whether you get it remains to be seen.

Some of my femme friends are more telephone oriented than I am but most are perfectly content to text and email and play around here until we can see one another in person. Then I get to squish them and soak up their yumminess.

Most of the butches and guys I am friends with here are more along the lines of 'touch and go' or a one line zinger. BAM! Say it/do it, it's done, let's move on. Not bad. Not good. Just quick connections, which is fine with me. If I needed more from any of them, I think that I could get it but that's how we flow.

Like a couple of people have said, I tend to work things out on my own. I like connections but on my own terms. When I need to bounce something off of someone, I have people that I know I could go to and they would offer my very good advice or give me a solid shoulder to lean on.

I have friends. Some really close ones. But not tons. I find the more friends I have, the less I am able to give each of them, so I'd rather give more of myself to less people. It feels more genuine.