What does the "B-F Dynamic" mean to you?

[Strappie]

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

Also a friend of mine wanted me to explain to her what the Dynamic meant to me. I couldn't really put it into any good words. I told her how I felt but I didn't think I gave it a good representation.

What does it mean to you?

[imperfect_cupcake]

what does the bf dynamic mean to me? kind of a wierd question to answer as it's kinda like me answering what being a lesbian means to me.

personally I don't see it as anything but a sexuality. There isn't any roles in my relationships so I can't speak about that. My partner does what she enjoys and is good at, I do the same, just like any other relationship. She doesn't hold doors for me or take off her hat or anything along those lines. She spoils me in the way I find important, but I would expect every good relationship no matter what the people are in to do that.

I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Strappie

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

who did that? ??

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

what does the bf dynamic mean to me? kind of a wierd question to answer as it's kinda like me answering what being a lesbian means to me.

personally I don't see it as anything but a sexuality. There isn't any roles in my relationships so I can't speak about that. My partner does what she enjoys and is good at, I do the same, just like any other relationship. She doesn't hold doors for me or take off her hat or anything along those lines. She spoils me in the way I find important, but I would expect every good relationship no matter what the people are in to do that.

I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.

I have to agree with this. I am who I am, femme is a part of that. I try to be the best me I can be, not the best femme I can be. We as a couple, work together based on what we are good at. We don't assign rolls based on who is butch and who is femme.

I get the concept of the B-F dance
but everyone has to figure out what that means to them.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

...I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not really very traditional in many ways in our relationship. so, the dynamic is not, for me, who opens doors, who pays the bill, who gets me a beer, who carries the bags - she's not my dogsbody. she does these things on many occations (save the door opening) but no more than I see other lesbian couples doing these things for each other who aren't butch-femme.

so, to me, it's purely about sex.

You see, this is the same as trying to say that I am butch because my hair is short and I wear masculine clothes. The dynamic, as well as my gender identity run much deeper than that. This is of course, my opinion.

[SuperFemme]

Oddly, I thought HB was saying the same thing as you UofM...

Of course I guess it is open to self interpretation. I think the one point we can all agree on is that the B/F dynamic works in our lives in very individualized ways. Snowflakes. No two are alike. It is always snowing on the Planet, no?

[NJFemmie]

Yeah, so I'm confused because I too thought that was what honeybarbara was trying to impart ... that those particular things don't define the dynamic for her - (but then again, who's to say it doesn't for someone else...)

Interpretation is a slippery little sucker.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

You see, this is the same as trying to say that I am butch because my hair is short and I wear masculine clothes. The dynamic, as well as my gender identity run much deeper than that. This is of course, my opinion.

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.

[LieslKate]

A lil bit of Lesbian Herstory...

This first ethnography on the development of working-class lesbian communities from the 1930s to the 1960s focuses on a Buffalo, New York, lesbian community. Unlike gay men, gay women, by dressing the way they wanted, going to bars regularly, being financially independent from their families of origin and from men, and by boldly seeking out the company of other women like themselves, unwittingly created a community of their own. The authors argue that because the women in the community gave one another the support necessary to respond aggressively and "with pride" when facing an often disapproving and hostile society, they effectively built the real foundation of the gay and lesbian liberation movement. The oral histories of 45 women tell of victimization by their families, straight men, and one another but also recount the joys these women experienced by allowing themselves to be who they really were. Conducted over a 13-year period, these interviews contribute a massive amount of original research to the anthropology of American culture as well as to lesbian history. For academic libraries and women's studies collections.
- Patricia Sarles, Brooklyn P.L. , New York
Copyright 1993 Reed Business Information, Inc.

". . . the first comprehensive account of a working-class lesbian community. . .." -- Ms. Magazine

"This should be seen as a groundbreaking book, a fascinating look at the pre-political support systems, of friendship groups extended to include ex-lovers' families and children that became one of the foundation blocks for building the gay/lesbian communities of our day." -- San Francisco Review of Books

At a time when many lesbian and gay leaders are urging assimilation and moderation, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold recovers a neglected chapter of lesbian and gay history and reminds us of the enduring importance of outlaw roots. -- San Francisco Chronicle-Examiner

Conducted over a 13-year period, these interviews contribute a massive amount of original research to the anthology of American culture as well as to lesbian history. -- Library Journal

The book soars on the plain, yet eloquent voices of the women. . . -- Boston Globe

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold honors all of us; Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis have produced a work that opens up the heart and mind. Their book breaks new ground in womens history, Lesbian history, and the history of desire as a lived force in a community under seige. Most of all, they have put back at the center a group of women, who without money or traditional power, fought for and won a public place where women queers could celebrate their love. -- Joan Nestle, Co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and Editor of The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader

While some of this book is a juicy account of who did what to whom, the heart of Boots of Leather lies in its careful, insightful evaluation of the development of the Buffalo lesbian community through its bars. -- Lambda Book Report

This pioneering history of a working-class lesbian community is doubly marked by its scholarly care and its human compassion. Kennedy and Davis have adhered to the most scrupulous standards of serious historical work, yet at the same time have treated the subjects of their scrutiny with profound delicacy and respect. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is one of the finest works yet to emerge in the burgeoning field of gay and lesbian studies. -- Martin Duberman, Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate `chool, and Director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies

Rarely does a book break entirely new ground, but this is surely one that does. With love, passion, and empathy, Kennedy and Davis bring to life the history of a working-class lesbian community. A complex, fascinating, and evocative world, it has much to tell us about gender, sexuality, class, and urban life. Above all, this is a story about the triumph of the human spirit over horrible adversity. The voices of these women sing on every page. -- John DEmilio, University of North Carolina at Greensboro

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold incorporates both academic values of sound scholarship and the lesbian communitys need for roots and for affirmation of our identity as woman-loving women. -- The Empty Chest

...Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy's and Madeline D. Davis' history of the lesbian working-class cummunity in Buffalo. Drawing on oral history as well as records, the authors have represented a microcosmic study of a fascinating and vital community. The importance of class and race and the techniques of survival in the face of oppression marked the historical experience of these women. Kennedy and Davis have written about the specific local development of a consciousness of a kind that is required for a liberation movement and that they show existed before Stonewall in Buffalo. -- The Los Angeles Times

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold honors all of us; Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis have produced a work that opens up the heart and mind. Their book breaks new ground in women's history, Lesbian history, and the history of desire as a lived force in a community under seige. Most of all, they have put back at the center a group of women, who without money or traditional power, fought for and won a public place where women queers could celebrate their love. -- Joan Nestle, Co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and Editor of The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader

While some of this book is a juicy account of who did what to whom, the heart of Boots of Leather lies in its careful, insightful evaluation of the development of the Buffalo lesbian community through its bars. -- Lambda Book Report

This pioneering history of a working-class lesbian community is doubly marked by its scholarly care and its human compassion. Kennedy and Davis have adhered to the most scrupulous standards of serious historical work, yet at the same time have treated the subjects of their scrutiny with profound delicacy and respect. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is one of the finest works yet to emerge in the burgeoning field of gay and lesbian studies. -- Martin Duberman, Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate `chool, and Director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies

This very first community study of lesbians will radically advance the state of knowledge in gay and lesbian studies. Nuanced, lovingly researched and provocative, both the description and the argument are food for thinkingpeople. -- Esther Newton, State University of New York at Purchase and author of Cherry Grove, Fire Island: Sixty Years in America's First Gay and Lesbian Town

Until you know where you came from how can you know where you are going...

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold :
Publisher: Penguin (Non-Classics) (March 1, 1994)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0140235507
ISBN-13: 978-0140235500

Other reading...
Radical History Review: Volume 63 (v. 63) Forging Gay Identities: Organizing Sexuality in San Francisco, 1950-1994 by Elizabeth A. Armstrong
Queer Fictions of the Past: History, Culture, and Difference (Cambridge Cultural Social Studies) by Scott Bravmann
Feminism, Sexuality, and Politics: Essays by Estelle B. Freedman (Gender and American Culture) by Estelle B. Freedman
Female Masculinity by Judith Halberstam

[HeartBreak Kid]

Originally Posted by Strappie

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

Also a friend of mine wanted me to explain to her what the Dynamic meant to me. I couldn't really put it into any good words. I told her how I felt but I didn't think I gave it a good representation.

What does it mean to you?

For me, I LOVE the butch femme dynamic....and it is more to me than the apperance or "duties" that femme/butch implies..
The only way I can explain it is to talk about the connection in terms of "energies" my energy is firery and it seeks out a cooling energy. While I have dated Femme women as well, it seems that I find that "coolness" more often in butches.
For me the dynamic is often spiritual in that I feel like I am balanced regardless of who picks up the check or opens the door. *now I DO enjoy having my doors opened and someone to take out the trash, but thats isnt what I am attracted to in the B-F dynamic.
Now every butch and Femme is diffrent, but there is a unique "swagger" that draws me in like a moth to a flame....
A few years ago there was a song that had a verse that kinda sums up how I feel about the butchh femme dynamic....

I'm a movement by myself.
But I'm a force when we're together
I'm good all by myself.
But baby you, you make me better
~You Make Me Better ft Ne-Yo by Fabolous~

Please excuse all spelling and gramatical errors as im typing while half asleep......

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Strappie

I'm trying to write something and I'm not a writer as most of you all know. *smirk* So I thought what better place is there?

Also a friend of mine wanted me to explain to her what the Dynamic meant to me. I couldn't really put it into any good words. I told her how I felt but I didn't think I gave it a good representation.

What does it mean to you?

Howdy Scrappie! You write just fine! I would love to hear what it means to you as well.

For me, I see it as an attraction dynamic between women whom identify as butch attracted to women whom identify as femme. And vice- versa. Pretty much sums up the simple definition for me.

Now.. that said, I agree with honeybarb and others above in that identifying myself as a butch woman, does not attach itself to any specific "role mechanics" nor do I see femme attached to any specific mechanics. Read: Butch doesn't just take out trash. mow yard ( although this butch enjoys those things) and femme does not mean " keep away from power tools" because my femme mate is handy as hell. it doesn't mean "butch= breadwinner/ femme= homemaker".. because it is exactly the opposite in our home.

I don't apply "butch-femme" to gay men as I have yet to meet any whom have identified with those terms. If I do, then I shall.

I don't apply this term to heterosexual couples because ( for me) it seems redundant or silly.

I don't apply this term to FTM's ( whom have transitioned and claim the id of "man" or "male" ) as they are no longer in (in my opinion) "butch", they are man/ male.

For me, this works best. May not be the same for others.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by amiyesiam

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.

thanks yes, that's what I ment. I see many people not into butch-femme dynamic opening doors, paying for meals, cleaning the house etc. Things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" (aka traditional 50's middle america stuff. That's not judgement by the way for those who dig it). That's not it for me *because* my partner and I don't do gender division of things. Butches take out the trash/femmes wash the dishes. That kind of thing. Nor is it "butch manners" because she doesn't have any. She spoils me, but not in any way that I don't see other couples doing for each other in non-butch-femme ID'd couples.

SO I can't say, for me, that butch-femme dynamic is about anything else but sex.

For someone else, that may be absurd. But since I can't point at my partner and say "oh it's cause she treats me with such care and she's such a gentleman..." cause, y'know, butch-femme doesn't have the corner on that. i've met a ton of non ID's and femmes I enjoy being spoiled and treated sweetly by in a... way that I used to think only butches did.

So I can't nail it to anything but the brass knobs, for me.

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I am curious, does this mean that whatever we write here you will be using for whatever it is you are trying to write? I am not sure if this is what you mean so I am asking for clarification.

FYI, to diminish this dynamic to who opens doors makes my heart ache.

Not at all UofMfan... I mostly just want to know how you all explain the dynamic.

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by Jess

Howdy Scrappie! You write just fine! I would love to hear what it means to you as well.

For me, I see it as an attraction dynamic between women whom identify as butch attracted to women whom identify as femme. And vice- versa. Pretty much sums up the simple definition for me.

Now.. that said, I agree with honeybarb and others above in that identifying myself as a butch woman, does not attach itself to any specific "role mechanics" nor do I see femme attached to any specific mechanics. Read: Butch doesn't just take out trash. mow yard ( although this butch enjoys those things) and femme does not mean " keep away from power tools" because my femme mate is handy as hell. it doesn't mean "butch= breadwinner/ femme= homemaker".. because it is exactly the opposite in our home.

I don't apply "butch-femme" to gay men as I have yet to meet any whom have identified with those terms. If I do, then I shall.

I don't apply this term to heterosexual couples because ( for me) it seems redundant or silly.

I don't apply this term to FTM's ( whom have transitioned and claim the id of "man" or "male" ) as they are no longer in (in my opinion) "butch", they are man/ male.

For me, this works best. May not be the same for others.

Thanks Jess,

I do identify as Butch but I haven't given up my woman card either. I guess I am still a woman that's Butch. Some of my friends just don't understand the B-F Dynamic. I have so many Fem on Fem friends it's hard for them to see this. They ask questions without assaulting me and sometimes I just don't have the answers I feel as though is a good representation.

So I guess I'm just trying to listen and hear others explanations.

I will give you my explanation of it in a few.. Biggest Loser is on... lol

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by HeartBreak Kid

For me, I LOVE the butch femme dynamic....and it is more to me than the apperance or "duties" that femme/butch implies..
The only way I can explain it is to talk about the connection in terms of "energies" my energy is firery and it seeks out a cooling energy. While I have dated Femme women as well, it seems that I find that "coolness" more often in butches.
For me the dynamic is often spiritual in that I feel like I am balanced regardless of who picks up the check or opens the door. *now I DO enjoy having my doors opened and someone to take out the trash, but thats isnt what I am attracted to in the B-F dynamic.
Now every butch and Femme is diffrent, but there is a unique "swagger" that draws me in like a moth to a flame....
A few years ago there was a song that had a verse that kinda sums up how I feel about the butchh femme dynamic....

I'm a movement by myself.
But I'm a force when we're together
I'm good all by myself.
But baby you, you make me better
~You Make Me Better ft Ne-Yo by Fabolous~

Please excuse all spelling and gramatical errors as im typing while half asleep......

Energy is probably the best identifier for this dynamic for me as well. Through the years, terms and phrases and words have floated around to describe the B-F dynamic....yin/yang.....the dance....complementary energies....etc.

I think they are all correct. Each partnering is individual and rarely follows the exact same parameters. I know I have it when I feel it. It's like a strong wind blowing through a valley of trees. Some days I'm the trees. Some days I'm the wind. But there is always that syncopation; that rhythm of movement.

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Energy is probably the best identifier for this dynamic for me as well. Through the years, terms and phrases and words have floated around to describe the B-F dynamic....yin/yang.....the dance....complementary energies....etc.

I think they are all correct. Each partnering is individual and rarely follows the exact same parameters. I know I have it when I feel it. It's like a strong wind blowing through a valley of trees. Some days I'm the trees. Some days I'm the wind. But there is always that syncopation; that rhythm of movement.

Heartbreak Kid and Gemmie,
thank you to me this is what I was looking for. Gemmie I have to agree about some days I'm this and some days I'm that... But there is always that syncopation; that rhythm of movement.Thank you!!

HB...

Hi btw it's been a long time since I've seen you around. It's good to see you!! I don't disagree with your explanation at all either I believe that we are who we are with each person that comes along.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Hi straps!

I think so too.

I'm really thinking about this. of course I can't answer for anyone else... only me and my expereinces.

every relationship, including butch-butch, femme-femme, non-ID-trans, kitchensink-genderqueer, is going to have a type of ying/yang, back-forth, tidal, mixing and moving of "energies."

I still am of the opinion that it's because of what/whom I'm attracted to, not the actual relationship dance, that's the distinction.

answer something for me straps... why do the femme-femme friends of yours "not get" your relationship? what's "not to get?" it's a relationship between people who care about each other.

Are they questioning your attractions? what exactly are they not "getting." I have plenty of non-butch-femme couple friends and it's not that they "don't get it" in that they don't understand my relationships... it's that they "don't give a shit" to most of a degree what my relationships are and that they "don't get" why I want only one kind (to them) partner. they don't care mind you, it's just not within their realm of expereince and they don't care enough to ask me about it - mostly.

when explaining it, it hasn't been me explaining the "butch-femme dynamic" as I don't think it's a universal, so why bother. However, it *has* been me explaining that my primary attraction is for X with a choice of varients in 1 through 600 different possibilites.

To be super honest, the only people I've run into in the past 7 years interested in the whys of butch-femme or even a particular ID has beeen those within the group in question.

Or newly out/very young

what exactly did they say to you that made you feel you wanted to explain your relationship dynamics with your girlfriends to them? (not an attack, just a wonder/sincere curiosity)

Nice to see you!!

[SuperFemme]

I agree with the energy qualifier. Some energies compliment each other and draw out that ying/yang thing that poets keep trying to describe. There are not words that can nail it quite right.

Intellectual intercourse, is first for me. The dance of the b/f dynamic can vary and evolve for me, because it is always a new and different thing. Swagger...somebody mentioned it. I cannot capture the essence of that swgger but I know it when I see it. Cocked eyebrow, eyes that have conversations with my soul without ever uttering a word. Oh. Yum.

I don't care for the stereotypes that some attribute to the b/f dynamic. It is crazy to me to try and bottle up and sell something that cannot be replicated without ownership.

Make me smile. Lavish me in your laughter. Split open your pain and bleed on me. Hold me whilst I bleed on you. Make me feel safe in a way that only you can. Surrender and let me love you....

Because nobody knows how many licks it takes to get to the center. Of anything.

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Hi straps!

I think so too.

I'm really thinking about this. of course I can't answer for anyone else... only me and my expereinces.

every relationship, including butch-butch, femme-femme, non-ID-trans, kitchensink-genderqueer, is going to have a type of ying/yang, back-forth, tidal, mixing and moving of "energies."

I still am of the opinion that it's because of what/whom I'm attracted to, not the actual relationship dance, that's the distinction.

answer something for me straps... why do the femme-femme friends of yours "not get" your relationship? what's "not to get?" it's a relationship between people who care about each other.

Are they questioning your attractions? what exactly are they not "getting." I have plenty of non-butch-femme couple friends and it's not that they "don't get it" in that they don't understand my relationships... it's that they "don't give a shit" to most of a degree what my relationships are and that they "don't get" why I want only one kind (to them) partner. they don't care mind you, it's just not within their realm of expereince and they don't care enough to ask me about it - mostly.

when explaining it, it hasn't been me explaining the "butch-femme dynamic" as I don't think it's a universal, so why bother. However, it *has* been me explaining that my primary attraction is for X with a choice of varients in 1 through 600 different possibilites.

To be super honest, the only people I've run into in the past 7 years interested in the whys of butch-femme or even a particular ID has beeen those within the group in question.

Or newly out/very young

what exactly did they say to you that made you feel you wanted to explain your relationship dynamics with your girlfriends to them? (not an attack, just a wonder/sincere curiosity)

Nice to see you!!

HB...

Well my friends and I are a very close group and they are learning along with me learning from them. For instance, in the last 6 months I've taken more of my friends "Shopping" to help their sex life with their partners. I love it, it's fun for me to teach my friends about the "Adult Toy" world, mainly "strap-ons." It's like a new world for them. We are very open about sex, relationships and life. We talk about things that my guess is some people wouldn't touch. So when they ask me what it is about the dynamic that makes it so wonderful for me, it's like I freeze and can't come up with the words.

Like how do you go about explaining to someone new that you'd like to date what your preferences are in sex, in life, in a relationship? Those are some questions that come up.

Sorry it's hard for me to express myself. Sometimes so many things come into my head and I can't always scrabble them to make it come out the way I need it to. (things I'm working) *smile*