Religious Holidays in Public Schools

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Chancie

I like having an extended period of time off for Christmas, but of course we celebrate those holidays in publically funded institutions because most of our 'Founding Fathers' were Christian.

I disagree, Chancie. There weren't any public institutions at the time of the Founding Fathers. Heck, there was barely an army! It was a fight to get banks; the first government fell apart and had to be replaced.

And schools? There were NO public schools in the US until the 1800s, and education was not compulsory before 1852. All the Founding Fathers were dead by then, so we cannot blame the Christianity ingrained in the system on them; it rightly belongs to the officials in the mid-1800s to the early 1900s.

I believe it's a mistake to confuse Deism and Christianity, btw. Deists believe in a non-specified Supreme Being, as well as in the ability of reason to explain the world, no faith or religion needed; Christians believe in a very specific God named Jehovah/Yahweh, in the primacy of faith over reason, and in the need for institutionalized religion. The majority of the Founding Fathers were Deist.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Since I doubt that schools will not take away holidays, I would say then other religious holidays should be included. However, I don’t think that any religious holiday should be honored in public schools.

I don't know why breaks can't just be called Winter, Spring Breaks, or Mid-Term, etc. It would be best to have these just sorted into the days allowed off in public school calendars and not based upon the holiday breaks utilized now, like Christmas or Easter.

The holidays that are represented by now are Christian and that does leave out other religions (or non-religious people). The public schools in the US are part of a federal education department, thus, ought to align with Separation of Church and State in the Constitution.

I just feel that any religious (or spiritual, for that matter) honoring of a holiday is a private matter for families to decide upon. Public schools are secular institutions.

If we can make adjustments to things like year-around school terms, we can change this!

I think some schools already refer to holidays as breaks, but much of the time, the actual time the kids are off is based around Christmas or New Year's or Easter...

Originally Posted by Lynn

I don't think that schools should teach religion or have a religious based curriculum. But, I do think that schools should teach respect, including respect for other religions and other points of view. I don't see that allowing time off for personal beliefs is a violation of the idea of separation of church and state.

I think there are too many days off in the school year, in general. Most of the time off is not "religious" even if it's scheduled around religious holidays. I do think it would be positive for students and useful for curriculum planning, if holidays of major religions were given. Not any old holiday, but the holy days when students would be staying home anyway. I doubt if there will ever be scheduled classes on Christmas. So, it makes sense to me that Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur as well as the major Muslim holy days should be given. I also think school should be provided year-round, with semesters and various shorter periods of time off that both schools and parents can plan for.

Yes...in terms of planning for homework, exams, etc...it seems smarter to include most holidays. Like, what if the teacher had a mid-term planned for a certin week, but 20% of the class would potentially be out because of Ramadan? In terms of teachers and parents being able to make lesson plans and to provide cohesive cirriculum, I agree.

[julieisafemme]

I say remove all the holidays, or at least calling them holidays. So Winter break, Spring break etc. My child goes to a Jewish day school that is run on the Jewish calendar. If she went to public school I would just take her out for the High Holidays and Passover.

[JustJo]

My son attends a public school that calls all breaks by non-religious names - winter break, spring break - but that coincide with the dates of the Christian holidays.

However, because there is a large Jewish population here, the Jewish high holidays are also observed and there is no school. It's a little ironic that his school is technically closed for Yom Kippur but not for Christmas or Easter. No one seems to object, however.

The first Muslim students started at his school this year, and those kids were exempt from school on their religious holidays. The school also invited a Muslim religious leader to come talk to the school about what those holidays were and their significance beforehand, since most children (and parents) in the school had no knowledge about that faith. It wasn't mandatory for anyone to attend...more of a reception and learning opportunity.

I appreciate that his school makes an effort to talk about all faiths and cultures, and observes and celebrates an immense variety of holidays...even though the children attending are not terribly diverse. I think they enrich the children's education and broaden their minds. I also think they need the breaks...so the traditional couple of weeks in winter and spring (particularly here when we're buried in snow) are much appreciated, even though we are quite secular in our celebrations.

[Apocalipstic]

I believe in division of church and state and that students need breaks. The word holiday comes from Holy Day and Public School should not have Holy Days.

However, If a child is pulled out of school for a religious function by their parents, I do not believe the child should be penalized. It is not their fault if their parents are super religious.

I do remember frustration both as a child and an adult that the fervently religious somehow end up with extra holidays. We all got/get the major Christian Holidays off, but for example other kids got Christmas and other holy days off.

I might not be in church on Good Friday, but I might want to color eggs for Spring. *harrumph*.

I am not really sure how it should be handled. Year round school with neutrally named days off?

And while we are at it, can we get rid of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving please?

[christie]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think schools shouldn't have religious holidays and should take all of them out of the school calendars. Separation of church and state. Yes I believed this as a kid.

I agree with you, Corkey. I have never understood why religious (read: Christian) holidays were a part of a school calendar, especially with school prayer out the window.

This piqued my interest and I went to check Bratboy's high school calendar for the 10-11 year - 24 school holidays with two being religious. Good Friday and Easter Monday.

Easter Monday?!?!?!? Until we moved to smalltown, BFE VA, I had never HEARD of "Easter Monday." Last year, the mominlaw planned a big family shindig... on Easter Monday. Imagine her shock and awe that my company didn't recognize it AND that I had never even fathomed such a thing. The look on her face was one who had just seen the debil herself

[christie]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I might not be in church on Good Friday, but I might want to color eggs for Spring. *harrumph*.

Come to our neck of the woods and you have businesses recognizing Easter Monday. *eyeroll* I'm not certain why its a holiday, but it is. Guess that stone rolling on Easter Sunday requires recuperation time!

(No offense to any who might celebrate Easter Monday, but with my hellfire and brimstone upbringing in the Southern Baptist Convention, this wasn't ever mentioned)

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I think there should be a pre-determined amount of School Breaks without any official naming of them--besides a Break.

In Australia, the year was divided into terms--after every three months of school, a two week break was given. In December/January it was summer break which lasted approximately six weeks if I recall. I really liked this system; there was always a break to look forward to instead of long stretches without a rest (for all concerned). There was no *official* naming or links/ties to any religious holiday--they existed solely as School Breaks.

In North America, yes some of our Breaks were designed around Christian holidays; however, I think any affiliation to the Christian roots of these holidays should now be removed--in a pluralistic society and in a publicly funded system, I don't see the need to favour one religious holiday over any other any longer.

I am not sure to do about Easter though; how to get rid of that (in Canada, students get Good Friday AND Easter Monday off) without calling it Easter--and this is in public schools. However, we also have one religion whose school boards are entirely government funded (R.C) in two provinces.

I don't want more religious holidays included in a public school's calendar, and I want the ones that exist renamed into neutral non-religious breaks.


If families want to remove their children for a religious holiday, that is their prerogative and all they need to do is call in their absence.

You said it way better than I. Thank you.

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I haven't voted because I don't see a choice in your poll that reflects my opinion, which is the same as HSIN.

I believe in the separation of Church and State, even if said separation is getting blurrier by the minute. And also believe that there should be breaks during the school year, otherwise there would be burn out in the parts of both the students and teachers. I think those breaks should be named according to the time of the year, season or whatnot, but not to reflect any one religion.

I live in a country were we have 17 legal holidays, At least ten are religious. The country was also legally known, until about 5 years ago, as "The Country of Our Sacred Heart", even though our Constitution, rewritten in 1991 clearly defines the separation of Church and State. The thing here though, is that about 75% of the kids here go to Private schools and of those 80% are religious, and of those, 90% are Catholic. I say this because I can't foresee any change regarding religious holidays happening any time soon here.

So to even consider a change here would be dramatic at best. I do believe it should be done in the States but I can see the fight from the religious right already. During the Bush years the religious right was predominant in our culture and I think they are trying to make a comeback. All I can think of is the legal battle about "prayers in schools" to predict how difficult this would become.

That is all for now.

This is an interesting thought for me. Obviously, because I grew up here in the US, there has always been the controversy about separation of church and state. We always said the pledge of allegiance and had breaks based around religious holidays. This was the 70's. It was later that holidays turned into -spring break- and -winter break- although we always knew it was because of Easter or Christmas. I mean, the only other holidays were things like Labor Day, Memorial Day, etc.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by christie0918

Come to our neck of the woods and you have businesses recognizing Easter Monday. *eyeroll* I'm not certain why its a holiday, but it is. Guess that stone rolling on Easter Sunday requires recuperation time!

(No offense to any who might celebrate Easter Monday, but with my hellfire and brimstone upbringing in the Southern Baptist Convention, this wasn't ever mentioned)

Maybe it is a Virginia thing? I have never heard of it either, but I also come from a nest of Southern Baptists.

Maybe it is so the girls who have corsages for easter can't wear them to school the next day?

[EnderD_503]

In Canada, students of non-Christian faith are allowed to take their own religious holidays off. I grew up in an area with a high Christian Orthodox population, and eastern European kids who observed those holidays (particularly Orthodox Easter which varies from Catholic Easte) were always permitted to take their own Easter and Good Friday off. Just as Chinese students were able to take the Chinese New Year off (actually, Chinese New Year has become pretty big in Toronto even among those who aren't of Chinese descent). Same thing went for all other faiths and nationalities. Personally, I'm perfectly ok with this practice of letting religious individuals take days off according to their own holidays, as long as they aren't made official holidays. I don't believe religion or religious holidays have any place in public schools or in the work place. As such, I don't think we should be adding in any other religious holidays into the system, since we're already trying to eradicate/rename/re-identify the Christian ones.

I wouldn't say that most or even the majority of our holidays are religious holidays in Canada, in the school system or outside of it. Our national statutory holidays are Christmas Day, New Year's Day, Canada Day, Labour Day and Good Friday (though a lot of shops are still open on Good Friday anyway, in Toronto).

Mid-term break in the school system coincides with Thanksgiving (second week of October here in Canada), and just makes sense with the way the Canadian public school system organises its semesters. However, I should also note that Thanksgiving in Canada does not have the same religious connotations as in the US, and is not counted as a religious holiday here.

As for Christmas holidays, it isn't referred to as such here anymore (at least, I haven't heard it referred to that way officially since middle school). In schools it's referred to as the winter holidays/vacation rather than Christmas holidays. In some universities a portion of the winter holidays are also known as "exam time." I am against this particular "holiday," personally

Whatever you choose to call it, I think it should remain. Students need the break. I'm of the belief that breaks are a good thing and should not be reduced. Germany is one of the nations with the most (largely religious) holidays in the world, and yet its population is one of the most productive in the world, with a good work ethic. I think it goes to show, that as long as the work ethic is high, holidays are good thing. North American society is far too high strung at times.

Other commonly celebrated holidays that warrant a day off school in Canada are Victoria Day (last Monday in May, celebrates Queen Victoria's birthday) aka the infamous May 2-4 weekend, Civic Holiday at the beginning of August and Family Day in February (which they just made up to give people a break in February because we didn't have one :P). We also have March Break in public schools, which typically coincides with Reading Week in universities.

The only real religious holiday left is Good Friday, really. I think that would be a tough one to get rid of, and I'm not sure it would really be necessary to get rid of it right now. The problem I have with renaming religious holidays (I don't think the breaks themselves should be removed) is that we start pretending those days are something they are not. It's like the aftermath of the French revolution when the government began renaming things that had religious or monarchic connotations according to so-called "French culture" (which excluded regional cultures like Norman, Breton and Provençal in favour of a so-called "unified French culture"). To me it just becomes this kind of Orwellian double-speak that I'd rather not see infect society. I think the holiday will eventually eliminate itself. In Canada only approximately 25% of the population attends religious services regularly or even considers religion of significant importance in their lives. More than likely this trend will continue, and the holiday well eventually rename itself, so to speak, at which point it will be far more genuine. It's very easy to rename Christmas holidays as winter holidays, and if the same was done with Good Friday I would be fine with that...as long as it was not renamed to something ridiculous as is sometimes done when the government wants to put in an extra holiday.

That's my take on the matter, anyway, and I, personally, hope that eventually the last of of the religious holidays observed in the Canadian school system (Good Friday) will soon go the way of the dodo bird, by choice of the Canadian people.

[Soon]

Ender,

Great post.

Not only does Canada (well, at least Ontario) have Good Friday off in schools (and is named as such) but Easter Monday as well.

Most of the students where I am at refer to it as Christmas (not Winter) Break/Holidays/Vacation--maybe it's a regional thing.

And I concur with you about students just taking their own time off as needed for other faith based days. I have never heard of any student being penalized for missing day(s) due to Ramadan etc. (we have a fairly high Muslim population where I live).

I'm with you about breaks not being reduced...I still miss the three months on/two weeks off system in Australia. (with longer for summer holidays)

[Corkey]

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

I was curious about that statement of Ender's too and was hoping a US citizen would chime in.

Does your Thanksgiving have religious connotations?

Canada's doesn't at all.


We only get one day off for Thanksgiving as well--I think you have more days on that one? (2?)

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I believe in division of church and state and that students need breaks. The word holiday comes from Holy Day and Public School should not have Holy Days.

However, If a child is pulled out of school for a religious function by their parents, I do not believe the child should be penalized. It is not their fault if their parents are super religious.

I do remember frustration both as a child and an adult that the fervently religious somehow end up with extra holidays. We all got/get the major Christian Holidays off, but for example other kids got Christmas and other holy days off.

I might not be in church on Good Friday, but I might want to color eggs for Spring. *harrumph*.

I am not really sure how it should be handled. Year round school with neutrally named days off?

And while we are at it, can we get rid of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving please?

For me, Thanksgiving is really about spending time with my family and eating good food...having the time off is NICE. However, I would not care when we have the time off. Well, I do like the comfort feel foods we have, but we can make that anytime

The whole premise of Thanksgiving has changed over the years and I wonder if kids these days even know what it is for

[AtLast]

My late partner was Pagan and observed Winter Solstice which did not always coincide with the Winter/Christmas break for her as a teacher or her kids in public schools. So, she took them off and had the kids out of school on Pagan ritual celebrations. She actually had to get a letter from an attorney to do so!

This whole thing just gets down to separation of church and state for me like I said before. And the fact that public schools are under a federal department (and non-Christian citizens pay taxes) even with local school districts. They are secular institutions. Of course this has been blurred in the US from the beginning!

I also remember as a kid how other non-Christian (or atheists, agnostic) kids were really ostracized in school because of religious differences. Today, more than ever, I feel respecting and honoring world religions is critical. Remaining locked in a Christian school holiday calendar is not helpful in kids understanding that everyone may or may not believe the same way.

When I think of the hate-crimes based upon religious intolerance, myth, and just plain bigotry, I really see a need to change how public school holiday calendars need to be changed. I also feel that public school curriculums should include modules on world religions and atheism.

I am a person of faith and deeply spiritual, but, I see this as a personal space and have no right to put my spiritual values on anyone else. I want to understand the various religions in the world as well. So much myth and plain misinterpretation going on that leads to hate and violence.

Something I enjoy and that has taught me a lot is going to various religious or spiritual celebrations belonging to others. It enables me to see beyond myself and my religious and spiritual realm. That feels like the true meaning of Grace to me…. Understanding how others experience religion, faith or spirituality.

[julieisafemme]

Thanksgiving was never religious in my home. It is just like Sassy said. It is all about food!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I was curious about that statement of Ender's too and was hoping US citizen would chime in.

Does your Thanksgiving have religious connotations?

Canada's doesn't at all.

Not in my world, it is a holiday to give thanks, for some that is to their god, to others it is to their ancestors, and to Mother Earth. But as far as a religious holiday...not really no.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, Thanksgiving is really about spending time with my family and eating good food...having the time off is NICE. However, I would not care when we have the time off. Well, I do like the comfort feel foods we have, but we can make that anytime

The whole premise of Thanksgiving has changed over the years and I wonder if kids these days even know what it is for

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Thanksgiving was never religious in my home. It is just like Sassy said. It is all about food!

Originally Posted by Corkey

Not in my world, it is a holiday to give thanks, for some that is to their god, to others it is to their ancestors, and to Mother Earth. But as far as a religious holiday...not really no.

I look at it as a day to celebrate the White Man's survival with help from the Native people whose land they took and whom they abused and killed either outright or with White Men's diseases.

I find obligatory family events really stressful too.

I like Halloween...yes, I know it has religious connotations too, but I love the Gothic stuff!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

We only get one day off for Thanksgiving as well--I think you have more days on that one? (2?)

I've only when working had the one day off, when not actually working that day. At school I had one day off, still had to show up at school on Friday.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

I was listening to OPB (NPR) today and they had a segment on school holidays. In NY, there is a large Muslim population and they seek to add 2 of the Muslim holidays to the school calendar.

Apparently the city schools already have Jewish holidays (my schools did not, so I went to school) in addition to the "traditional" Christian holidays.

They have 11 observed holidays on the school calendar and none are Muslim - or any other religion aside from Jewish & Christian.

What do you think?

Hi Sassy!

I read the article that you linked us to. One of the things I found interesting was how they framed the message - kind of like a dichotomy, two sided story (re: the choice between religion and school).

I think the issue, as it's framed in the article, seems problematic by nature in that, to me, preference for type of education or religion seems to be two separate subjects and to me, again, it's hard to integrate that particular stream of thought in productive ways that enhances life for those who dwell in particular communities.

I wonder if there are any social models out there (maybe in Europe?) that address community needs in a way that allow members of the community to set up a way for the school year that plans for and incorporates holiday time to observe particular religious/spiritual practices?

I don't know how feasible it is, but I wonder if at a district level (for instance, like here in the PDX metro area), schools could have the power to amend or adopt or set up a particular schedule that meets the needs of members of the community that access shared set of resources and sets of social/religious beliefs???

I think the conversation concerning your article reflects the many ways the social dilemmas that communities face, as communities become more diverse: for example, social policy that's currently utilized anywhere is a herculian task to address- due to variances of particular cultures clustering in communities in any place you could throw a dart on the map. I think one of the things that makes it hard to unravel or problem solve this issue is that we (the general "we") tend to want to distill issues into singular equations that are simpler to solve and it's usually pretty difficult to reduce it to those particular terms because of the social complexity that makes up each type of community.

I don't know if what I've written about seems helpful (I'm not fully awake yet either) but it's what came to my mind in thinking about your article and I hope it adds to the conversation here!

ps/ I couldn't vote on your poll either because the options seem to not have a wide enough range for me to participate - so my post here is in lieu of a poll vote as "other" but not how it's framed in the poll.