In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So far what we have in common as far as who perpetuates this problem is Femmes...

I wonder why that is, I would have to guess it's ingrained ism's and gender expectations being carried over into the *rainbow*, I would also take a guess at folks/women/female bodied people coming out later in life and bringing in the rigid gender expectations and such.

So how do we combat this? Talk about it? Stop it?


Are butches who enable these expectations as responsible for this?

When I see "perpetuating a problem" and "enabling expectations", what I am hearing is "blame". I may again be misunderstanding you but this is what is behind my response.

No one is responsible for my identity but me. I am who I am based on a combination of innate factors and life experiences. Life experiences have helped me to both define and refine that identity as I encounter things that feel right to me for me, and encounter things that dont feel right to me and for me.

Having said that, we still send messages to one another thru the things we say, how we say them, and where we say them.

What I find in the butch femme community is a blurring of sorts. We have mixed genders, and mixed sexual orientations. We also have a desire to be inclusive and accepting of diversity which, it seems to me, is supposed to be accomplished by blending into something generic rather than having respectful boundaries for distinct differences.

If we want to address it as a community, it seems to me, we need to be willing to walk the talk. If we want to celebrate peoples diversity, our language and behavior needs to reflect this. Not all butches are male. Not all butches are female. A transman is not the same as a female id butch, or a male id butch, or a transgender person. How can we celebrate diversity when we call them all "butch"?

Being respectful of boundaries is another way to address this community wide. We all need and deserve our own space regardless of how we id. There are issues that are unique to us and that space should be respected.

As a woman and a lesbian, I find it very intrusive when male id people find the need to make their presence known in a thread for lesbians. It has nothing to do with them. As a woman and a lesbian, it feels like a violation, voyeuristic, and indicative of male privilege and entitlement.

I feel the same way when I see male ids make their presence known in femme threads. Do you really want to have sexually suggestive comments made indiscriminately when you are talking about what makes you feel sexy? Or when you are sharing lingerie pictures?

I also feel the same for the trans threads. Transfolks do not need my opinions on their experience. It is their experience not mine.

Another way we can address boundaries, is to be mindful of the info we are sharing and its appropriateness to the topic at hand. Again, I am mindful of lesbian space, so when someone comes into a thread about the lesbian experience, addresses it, and then has to bring other ids into their response, it sends a message. To me, it is a "yeah but" message. "Yeah but" is an invalidating message.

Sometimes it is important to pull something apart, to see where its origins lie. I dont know that this is one of those things. Sometimes we just need to be mindful that everything we do and say or dont do and say sends a message to other people. What may be more important is are we aware of the message we are sending? And, are we sending the message we want to send?

[Play]

"Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine
people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to
*qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on
self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself
pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is
natural?"

In repsonse to the original post...

No, I do not feel pressure from butches or femmes to be anything other
than who I am. This could be due to the fact that my personality leaves
no room for criticism from others as to how I "do me". Not to imply that I
am insensitive to the feelings of others, but I am more sensitive to being
true to myself. I wouldn't be open to anyone projecting their ideals of how
I should act or dress onto me.

Come to think of it, I have made judgment of someone's "butchness".
After reflection, it really wasn't about "butchness" at all. But it had more
to do with how they morally or ethically conducted themselves instead of
appearance or mannerisms. Of course, that is a people issue not a
butch/femme one. As someone who relates the OFOS butch school of
thought, I find that label to be more relatable to people closer to my
age (50, very soon). With age and experience I find labels mean less and
less to me. In my interactions with folks, I look for the intent in their hearts.
When I was younger I might look at the outward appearance first....but now
I am more inclined to realize that the exterior has very little to do with whom
I am attracted to or connect with.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I see "perpetuating a problem" and "enabling expectations", what I am hearing is "blame". I may again be misunderstanding you but this is what is behind my response.

No one is responsible for my identity but me. I am who I am based on a combination of innate factors and life experiences. Life experiences have helped me to both define and refine that identity as I encounter things that feel right to me for me, and encounter things that dont feel right to me and for me.

Having said that, we still send messages to one another thru the things we say, how we say them, and where we say them.

What I find in the butch femme community is a blurring of sorts. We have mixed genders, and mixed sexual orientations. We also have a desire to be inclusive and accepting of diversity which, it seems to me, is supposed to be accomplished by blending into something generic rather than having respectful boundaries for distinct differences.

If we want to address it as a community, it seems to me, we need to be willing to walk the talk. If we want to celebrate peoples diversity, our language and behavior needs to reflect this. Not all butches are male. Not all butches are female. A transman is not the same as a female id butch, or a male id butch, or a transgender person. How can we celebrate diversity when we call them all "butch"?

I have never equated butch to male or imposed male on butches, so if you could be clear who is perpetuating this?

Being respectful of boundaries is another way to address this community wide. We all need and deserve our own space regardless of how we id. There are issues that are unique to us and that space should be respected.

I am a fan of respected space.

As a woman and a lesbian, I find it very intrusive when male id people find the need to make their presence known in a thread for lesbians. It has nothing to do with them. As a woman and a lesbian, it feels like a violation, voyeuristic, and indicative of male privilege and entitlement.

I believe when this happens we have options to report or ask the people to leave or exit the convo, I know I have done this in the past in certain Femme threads.


I feel the same way when I see male ids make their presence known in femme threads. Do you really want to have sexually suggestive comments made indiscriminately when you are talking about what makes you feel sexy? Or when you are sharing lingerie pictures?


Honestly Kobi, this particular problem is just as much a butch problem as it is a male problem, the butches are no less guilty than the male id folks when it comes to being sexually inappropriate. I have been known to call on that, and it doesn't make me popular..


I also feel the same for the trans threads. Transfolks do not need my opinions on their experience. It is their experience not mine.


Another way we can address boundaries, is to be mindful of the info we are sharing and its appropriateness to the topic at hand. Again, I am mindful of lesbian space, so when someone comes into a thread about the lesbian experience, addresses it, and then has to bring other ids into their response, it sends a message. To me, it is a "yeah but" message. "Yeah but" is an invalidating message.

This particular issue is difficult for me because who gets to police who is lesbian or not? I know I was policed, so I chose dyke, how do we keep lesbians who are lesbians but other lesbians do not see them as lesbians out?

Sometimes it is important to pull something apart, to see where its origins lie. I dont know that this is one of those things. Sometimes we just need to be mindful that everything we do and say or dont do and say sends a message to other people. What may be more important is are we aware of the message we are sending? And, are we sending the message we want to send?

My questions and thoughts are in bold...

[imperfect_cupcake]

That's the thing. I like butches who are women. I like butches who are their own gender. I just can't equate sex (female or male) with gender (man, woman, butch, femme, bear, genderqueer, trans as gender). I personally get that a lot of my exes did not want to embrace the term "masculinity" because they felt it came with too much baggage. They wanted another word that was just for them and their gender. Which I get. I still personally have a residual twitch with the word myself. No, masculinity doesn't belong to men. The swastika actually doesn't belong to the nazis, it's eastern. But no matter how much I know that it means other things, the very first thing I think of when I see it, is hitler.
It's really hard, no, next to impossible, for me to say masculine without the same thing happening to me in my head. Probably why some butches struggle with the concept of being called feminine. They can't imagine femininity as any other thing than _______.

I tend to see most things as Nongendered to be honest. There are some things I cant help seeing as masculine but it's more an interplay between doer and item. than an actual "thing" ... I don't believe in "energy" or anything like that. I think it's a cop out word. What people talk about is movement, interaction. The way the body holds it's self we read as masculine or feminine. Because we were taught that. No other reason.

So my concept of "grace" like say the way Peter o Tool moved, crossed his legs, smoked and laughed, to me is ungendered but to someone else with a different back ground, less understanding of upper class British training of poise perhaps, would call it "faggy" or "effeminate" (feminine). Or tell me he has a "feminine energy about him" (argh... No he doesn't. You are talking about something you see, not an essentialist notion of being because it subjective. And if it's subjective, it CANT be essentialist)

Sorry bulldog I'm leaping off a word you used, not to get up your ass about it, but I see this "energy" word used all the time here used to describe and essentialist ideology about a persons being... And it's just not. It's the way they are viewed and for a reason the view has a bias toward. For example, the kids at school see me as having a "masculine" energy where as my friends see me as having a highly feminine "energy"

The kids at school mean : I'm assertive, I like to piss about with the boys, I like to talk about adventures, I laugh loudly and openly, I swear and am very confident about taking up space.

My friends mean: I dress very feminine, I flirt in a feminine style, I move my body in a feminine way. The kids at school don't see so much of that.

So which is it? Do I carry a masculine energy or a feminine energy? Could it be I don't have either and it's just how people have grown up with concepts and seeing those at the forefront of my behaviour? Probably.

I personally see myself as highly feminine because of certain traits and my love of feminine ritual.

I never put down a partner for doing anything they want that may be considered feminine. Go for it. Embrace it. Make it butch. I've seem butches pull off tiger striped bras and lip gloss. She also wore a disco silver lame soft ball jacket. She had MASSIVE huevos, that one lol... And no one Who knew her was ever in dispute about her being Butch. She has a presence of authority over herself. She dripped sex. Woof.

But yeah I have seen femmes and butches do it. Butches to the femmes and femmes to the butches. Mostly not with intent but sometimes incredibly so.

Mostly I feel pressure to be old school in my dating rituals in order to be desirable. I'm not. So I know my relative dateableness scale number is quite low. If I was more demure, quiet, giggled more, acted embarrassed and wanted someone to kiss me slowly and wrap their big strong arms around me and protect me...

I'm sure it would be easier. Alas. I am brassy, loud, and if anyone tell me what to do when I'm not naked, I get arsey. Plus I don't accept protection and care from people unless they have proved to me we have a caring friendship and hot sex. Oh well. My luck.

But yeah, I do feel a lot of pressure to conform in order to be desirable. So I get it.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My questions and thoughts are in bold...

I have never equated butch to male or imposed male on butches, so if you could be clear who is perpetuating this?

I believe when this happens we have options to report or ask the people to leave or exit the convo, I know I have done this in the past in certain Femme threads.

Honestly Kobi, this particular problem is just as much a butch problem as it is a male problem, the butches are no less guilty than the male id folks when it comes to being sexually inappropriate. I have been known to call on that, and it doesn't make me popular..

This particular issue is difficult for me because who gets to police who is lesbian or not? I know I was policed, so I chose dyke, how do we keep lesbians who are lesbians but other lesbians do not see them as lesbians out?

Those were your points.

What I hear in every one is "yeah but", "yeah but" "yeah but" and "yeah but".

Sometimes we lose sight of the forest because the trees are in the way.

[BullDog]

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BullDog

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

I specifically did not quote you so not have this happen, I bounced off your post and I should of clarified (I usually do but I got lazy, that won't happen again)

I'm only trying to make sure that it's clear like you have above how masculinity/femininity are traits behaviours that do not belong to ANY specific gender.

Having one more than the other does not take away from whatever you (general) are.


I wanted to clarify, in case you were confused and thought my post was directed *at you*, it wasn't..

[BullDog]

Thanks Snow.

HB, I agree that describing or sensing someone else's "energy" is very subjective. It feels like a woo woo term to me, lol, but it is something I very much feel within myself and in other people's presence. It's like people have this buzz about them when they are in the room. Not very scientific or definite, I know.

[Martina]

Some people enjoy explaining most of their behaviors in terms gender. I remember a post I made about decorating, how I was currently into decorating with some very feminine touches. It had NOTHING to do with my gender. It was not an expression of me as femme. It was that I really liked those colors and those touches right now. Next year, I might be attracted to all steel and wood. (I don't decorate that often.) Anyway, some people see themselves in terms of layers and layers of complex gender expression. I do not see myself that way. If people entered that house and thought, "femme," it was on them. If they entered and thought "gay man," (I had roommates), that was also on them.

The music I like is favored by men, straight men over forty. It says nothing about my gender. It really doesn't. It says something about my geographical roots, my love of good writing, and my social class. But not a damned thing about my gender.

Gender does go deep for me. But it does not BEGIN to explain everything about me. People who explain so much about themselves in terms of the expression of their inner boy or girl -- it feels made up to me. But I don't know. I have no idea what their experience is. I have an acquaintance who is wiccan, and she hears the voices of gods and goddesses within her. Their voices and preferences shape her decisions. I do not doubt her experience, but it is as alien to me as understanding that my purchase of a bedspread is an expression of my gender. It might be for some folks. For me, it is not.

There are things about me that are feminine. I am a lot less feminine than some folks. But I have inclinations and mannerisms that make me clearly more feminine than not. But I sure do not try to understand most of my behavior in terms of gender. It feels false to me. It feels artificial. It feels like a construct placed on me. I do not experience that as liberating at all.

[macele]

Originally Posted by Nat

Over the years I've run into many conversations with people off-site who have hit my radar as butch-ish, but who feel like certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness.

Among things I've specifically heard: haircuts, relationship to make-up, pronouns, sexual preferences, wearing women's clothes or undergarments, even prefered roles within a family or relationship, even jobs held.

This thread is intended as an opportunity for celebration of the femininity which can co-exist with being a butch. Because I think it's better to celebrate where there has perhaps been some tendency in the direction of shaming in our community and in the greater community.

Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?

i've had butch friends to joke with me about not being butch. all in fun. nothing that i took serious. no pressure.

i'm butch, but i've always enjoyed my femme energy. in fact, i love it.

in the early stages of accepting that i am a lesbian, i had a problem with embracing being butch. my brain was so programmed to believe being butch was wrong, ... i had to clean out the clutter and let myself love me.

nat, great thread. i've enjoyed reading all the responses.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."

I don't know. I raised 3 sons and all of my son's had baby dolls and doll houses. They also had trucks. Bennie loved pink and wore it proudly. Jacob took dance lessons and Isa loved dresses. All three of my son's cry. They each show emotion. Two out of three are straight and one is a Marine. And my Marine still cries openly.

And I agree with many... This is an online thing happening. In the real world, does this really exist? I am sure for many - but not in my world. I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.

I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic).

[BullDog]

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

[Stronghealer]

I am sorry I have not read all this thread....has anyone spoke of the pressure femmes put on other femmes-and - butches put on other butches : questioning how femme or butch they are...I have seen/experienced this a few times during my lifetime.

...

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by Stronghealer

I am sorry I have not read all this thread....has anyone spoke of the pressure femmes put on other femmes-and - butches put on other butches : questioning how femme or butch they are...I have seen/experienced this a few times during my lifetime.

...

In this thread its more dedicated to the butch/masculine and the ability to have a feminine side. I know that the femme side has been touched upon in the breaking stereo types thread.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.

I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

[BullDog]

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

[C0LLETTE]

"I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic). "

Have lesbians been sent off into the wilderness again ?

I'm lost again.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Julie, OK well, I am a lesbian butch so if feels a bit harsh to hear you say that, but I think I get what you are talking about. I think we should all respect space but I don't like things heavily zoned. I started a thread in the lesbian zone once and welcomed all lesbians, dykes, friends and allies. That is how I like the convos to go myself.

As it should be Bulldog. The only thread I think butches/trans need to stay out of - are the Femme bonding threads. When they come in and with their sexual innuendo's and the same for butch/trans threads that are about being butch/trans and bonding.

And I am harsh, so of course I sound that way :-)

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.

I'm all in support of you expressing your thoughts and opinions like this, but I have to ask: How do you get away with it? I would be very reluctant to state any strong position myself, expecting immediate backlash and quick mod involvement.

Good for you, Julie. Though I don't agree with your opinions completely, I commend you for putting them out there and sticking to them.

[BullDog]

Lol, Julie about the harsh. I get the issue you speak of but I don't think going around saying lesbian butches are judgmental is going to help make things better, especially since not all of us do that. It seems just as judgmental to me, raising the specific issue does not.

I feel a lot of anti lesbian sentiment in bf circles. I also see some lesbians in bf spaces not respecting gender and diversity (insisting on calling everyone ladies, etc).

I am a stone butch and a lesbian. I've heard remarks from some lesbian butches here about stone or chest surgery being a male issue and they want their own space. I scratch my head, cuz I am a stone butch and a lesbian.

Then there are people who think of lesbian and stone butch being completely opposite of each other. They say they are stone and don't have lesbian sex. Again, I scratch my head.

So yeah I have seen lots of judgements from all different angles.