Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I think they moved it to Wyoming.

Well, that explains it. My GPS only goes as far as Pizza Hut.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Perhaps you walk not-straight because of those "manly" steel toed boots?

Steel Toed boots?!?! Dang, this is all I got.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by The cute widdle wesbian

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

I'm not picking up on cheese, but I am smelling baloney.

[BullDog]

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

Unfortunately, here lies the very crux of the issue. What does " B/butch" mean anymore? Who gets to claim it? Who gets to define it? Who gets to pick and choose what reflection of "masculine" thought patterns/ attire/ attitudes are the funhouse mirror that makes up "B/butch?" ( Note: I do not view B/butch as a sideshow, moreover I do believe that some variance of masculinity is involved in defining "B/butch")

I am asking these questions more of myself than anyone else, so please don't think I am asking you ( Bulldog) or any other "you" to specifically answer them. I ask because I see transmen and transgendered folks referring to them selves as Butch or butch, as well ( over the years I have become confused in the mire as to adjective or noun, even, as folks also switch that aspect of grammar around also).

My earliest knowledge of the word "butch" was when I was in the second grade and my babysitters niece ( about 12 years my senior then) called me her little butch. I later was told it meant women who portrayed masculine behaviors or appearances. OK. I got that. It was me.

I hit my teen years/ and then early 20's in the late 70's early 80's and butch-femme was rather passe in the bar/ club scene. Everything was andro. Even then, as andro as I tried to be to blend, I was still a smidge "left of andro", heh. Maybe we need to realign ourselves and our gender speak with the center rather than the ends. Start everything at andro/ ambi then work our way out to our chosen/ self- realized genders, rather than starting with feminine or masculine and working back to center.

I have always had a very clear "masculine" expression, however, I have also always had "enough" feminine expression to be clear that I am a woman. I do not know when, in our community, it became bad or wrong to be that miraculous blend of both energies. I don't know when "andro" and "tweeners" or even "lesbian" got such a bad rap. I only found it when I started coming to butch-femme sites. I have journeyed full circle in the past ten or so years in trying to define for myself exactly where I am in the schematics of the "butch-femme" continuum, and what I have learned first and foremost, is that the more I try to "define" it, the less of a graceful beautiful dance it becomes.

I learned about FTM's and taught myself to use " Syr" in on line speak to note that I was butch but not FTM, as I didn't want to offend any of the very proud FTM friends I had met. I adapted hy/ he/ hym/ him, because ... well, it was easier at the time. Having questioned myself as being trans ( either gendered or sexed) it never really bothered me. Having sir or ma'am being interchanged toward me from people in RT, it just seemed to make sense.

The longer I have been around ( these sites and well, hell, life in general) the less it matters and the more important it becomes. I have tried to have these types of discussions before coming from the place of not understanding why the "majority" should always rule. The majority wants everyone to be included, to the point of often losing the essence of what was unique in and of itself. I do not think that everyone ALWAYS fits under one umbrella. Yes, there may be times and they may be the majority of the time, that we ALL get together on certain issues or events. There should also be respect for those issues and events that are for a unique group to honor their unique qualities among themselves.

I have a lot of thoughts on the notion of the loss of womens space. I have a lot of thoughts on the idea that male privilege comes from the hands, teaching, nurturing of women themselves. I can look to my mother ( and MANY like her) to see exactly how to raise/ feed and nurture male privilege. I digress.

Butch Voices or Masculine of Center Voices is going through the same sort of issues MWMF has gone through every year since 1976. "Who are we and who are we here for?" At some point, someone decides, or a collective decides and then they stick to it or not. I tend to look at things pretty simply. There is a need for A. If there becomes a need for B and it doesn't conflict with A, then mayhaps they be added to A. If adding B conflicts with A, then maybe B needs to start a group/event/ whatever to suit their needs. Chances are, they will both have groups until someone else comes along and says maybe we need an additional one so that A AND B can be together during this one and we'll call it C. This is how things eventually evolve. Unfortunately, it is never without growing pains.

Very happy to see this subject being discussed frankly. Thank you all.

[citybutch]

An Open Letter has been posted just as an FYI.

http://www.butchvoices.com/2011-07-o...tter#more-4207

[Chazz]

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

Another statement about thye split- sorry if already posted-

http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/...ation-is-born/

There appears to be financial problems as well in terms of the "not-for-profit" status of BV. Actually, the BV website does not give info on the actual legal filings and "acceptance" of 503(c) status. A good idea to post that info and the locale of the filing as this is a matter of public record. This status can be revoked at any time if an organization does not comply with the tax exempt status requirements. So, even if BV did secure this status in prior years- that does not mean that it still holds the status and yearly audits are required.

There is going to be a lunch-time talk by Cordova during the BV conference in Oakland.

I would rather have this all worked out within one organization. I wish there was a way to do this. Yes, I do often feel overshadowed as a butch woman by male/masculine identifications, yet, I do find this on-going battle heartbreaking and divisive in a very painful and unproductive way.

[BullDog]

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Another statement about thye split- sorry if already posted-

http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/...ation-is-born/

There appears to be financial problems as well in terms of the "not-for-profit" status of BV. Actually, the BV website does not give info on the actual legal filings and "acceptance" of 503(c) status. A good idea to post that info and the locale of the filing as this is a matter of public record. This status can be revoked at any time if an organization does not comply with the tax exempt status requirements. So, even if BV did secure this status in prior years- that does not mean that it still holds the status and yearly audits are required.

There is going to be a lunch-time talk by Cordova during the BV conference in Oakland.

I would rather have this all worked out within one organization. I wish there was a way to do this. Yes, I do often feel overshadowed as a butch woman by male/masculine identifications, yet, I do find this on-going battle heartbreaking and divisive in a very painful and unproductive way.

Without getting into the he said/ she said of that organization or their practices, it does at least appear to me that they have done a good job in the transparency of their financials.
http://www.butchvoices.com/about/financials/

These are very detailed P&L's, which is just about all most folks are really interested in anyway. I would however agree, that if a group ( whatever kind of group it is) states they are a non-profit or not for profit, perhaps they would be wise to address their status ( legal tax exemption) within their mission statement right after they mention being not for profit. I feel quite certain that after all of this pans out, their board will probably do just that.

I don't think they are obligated to "post" any legal filings on a general website unless there are stockholders involved. If it is a matter of public record, then certainly the public is free to look these things up. When inquiring minds want to know...they find out. Trust me, my wife can let you know exactly how easy it is to look up a tax exempt status record ( which is why she is banned from another site which bears no name in this discussion)

It disturbs me most ( in situations like this) that it becomes an unfolding drama of who is right and whom is wrong. Because it always seems to boil down to that. I see this as yet another phase of growing and developing as a community of very varied individuals. Nobody is happy when mommy and daddy fight, much less split up. Within these types of close knit, strongly bonded communities, it feels like that when the "board" runs into an insurmountable difference of opinion. Folks forget they are a "Board" and not mommy and daddy. They take sides.

I don't have a side. I had considered attending the last conference, but wasn't sure if I was a right "fit". I also get very tired of the drama surrounding politics. The politics won't go away, because they are core issues for most of us, however, I can, will and do limit the personal drama as much as possible.

It appears BV will continue and that Butch Nation will now evolve to fill the needs of butches who do not as closely relate to the BV definers. OK. Cool. We have choices.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

If butch women were involved from the beginning, and I believe they were, then who was dictating the terms of their inclusion? Why were butch women not articulating those terms? Why/how did women end up in the back seats?

I don't know the inner workings, but I wonder if the fact that the founder of BV does not identify as a butch woman, and that there seems to be a top-down kind of structure to BV muted the voices of women involved.

One of the things I've learned in the years of anti-violence organizing I've done is that women need to be in the leadership positions. Otherwise sexism takes over. The men I've worked with as allies understand this on a very deep (and feminist) level.

So now, it seems re BV, that women who have been involved are pulling out in order to re-establish their leadership elsewhere. Why they did not have successful leadership roles within BV is not clear. I have also read posts from a number of butch women who did not get on board to begin with because there was a lack of trust in the BV leadership and their agenda.
None of this is addressed in the BV response.

Heart

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

Hasn't it just.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

Sorry to be dense, but what is a sweaterbutch?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Heart

If butch women were involved from the beginning, and I believe they were, then who was dictating the terms of their inclusion? Why were butch women not articulating those terms? Why/how did women end up in the back seats?

I don't know the inner workings, but I wonder if the fact that the founder of BV does not identify as a butch woman, and that there seems to be a top-down kind of structure to BV muted the voices of women involved.

One of the things I've learned in the years of anti-violence organizing I've done is that women need to be in the leadership positions. Otherwise sexism takes over. The men I've worked with as allies understand this on a very deep (and feminist) level.

So now, it seems re BV, that women who have been involved are pulling out in order to re-establish their leadership elsewhere. Why they did not have successful leadership roles within BV is not clear. I have also read posts from a number of butch women who did not get on board to begin with because there was a lack of trust in the BV leadership and their agenda.
None of this is addressed in the BV response.

Heart

In the beginning it was hard to get people involved. Joe did do a lot of it, so I believe he was the main one bringing people on board, although I am sure he had input from others.

I think Joe and others who had been involved with conferences in the past had set ways of how things should be structured and how decisions should be made. I wasn't familiar with any of it and didn't like it.

Joe asked me and several other butch women to become involved from the beginning. So yes we were there, but when we voiced our concerns with the way things were going we were told we were being disrespectful to the trans members of the board and being divisive and that there wasn't time for all this, that there was a Conference that needed to be pulled together. Language was added to the website at the time that was suggested by a butch woman.

There was a very successful workshop held by Sasha for butch women/female id'd butches at the Conference and Jeanne Cordova gave an awesome keynote address.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.

The butch women speaking here are identified as lesbians... and I'm not seeing a debate about the term butch...

But whatever...

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Heart

The butch women speaking here are identified as lesbians... and I'm not seeing a debate about the term butch...

But whatever...

Please see below:

Originally Posted by Liam

Some of our members are having a difficult time seeing the lesbians in our community. Please step up, and let them know you are here.

Originally Posted by Jess

Unfortunately, here lies the very crux of the issue. What does " B/butch" mean anymore? Who gets to claim it? Who gets to define it? Who gets to pick and choose what reflection of "masculine" thought patterns/ attire/ attitudes are the funhouse mirror that makes up "B/butch?" ( Note: I do not view B/butch as a sideshow, moreover I do believe that some variance of masculinity is involved in defining "B/butch")

I am asking these questions more of myself than anyone else, so please don't think I am asking you ( Bulldog) or any other "you" to specifically answer them. I ask because I see transmen and transgendered folks referring to them selves as Butch or butch, as well ( over the years I have become confused in the mire as to adjective or noun, even, as folks also switch that aspect of grammar around also).

My earliest knowledge of the word "butch" was when I was in the second grade and my babysitters niece ( about 12 years my senior then) called me her little butch. I later was told it meant women who portrayed masculine behaviors or appearances. OK. I got that. It was me.

I hit my teen years/ and then early 20's in the late 70's early 80's and butch-femme was rather passe in the bar/ club scene. Everything was andro. Even then, as andro as I tried to be to blend, I was still a smidge "left of andro", heh. Maybe we need to realign ourselves and our gender speak with the center rather than the ends. Start everything at andro/ ambi then work our way out to our chosen/ self- realized genders, rather than starting with feminine or masculine and working back to center.

I have always had a very clear "masculine" expression, however, I have also always had "enough" feminine expression to be clear that I am a woman. I do not know when, in our community, it became bad or wrong to be that miraculous blend of both energies. I don't know when "andro" and "tweeners" or even "lesbian" got such a bad rap. I only found it when I started coming to butch-femme sites. I have journeyed full circle in the past ten or so years in trying to define for myself exactly where I am in the schematics of the "butch-femme" continuum, and what I have learned first and foremost, is that the more I try to "define" it, the less of a graceful beautiful dance it becomes.

I learned about FTM's and taught myself to use " Syr" in on line speak to note that I was butch but not FTM, as I didn't want to offend any of the very proud FTM friends I had met. I adapted hy/ he/ hym/ him, because ... well, it was easier at the time. Having questioned myself as being trans ( either gendered or sexed) it never really bothered me. Having sir or ma'am being interchanged toward me from people in RT, it just seemed to make sense.

The longer I have been around ( these sites and well, hell, life in general) the less it matters and the more important it becomes. I have tried to have these types of discussions before coming from the place of not understanding why the "majority" should always rule. The majority wants everyone to be included, to the point of often losing the essence of what was unique in and of itself. I do not think that everyone ALWAYS fits under one umbrella. Yes, there may be times and they may be the majority of the time, that we ALL get together on certain issues or events. There should also be respect for those issues and events that are for a unique group to honor their unique qualities among themselves.

I have a lot of thoughts on the notion of the loss of womens space. I have a lot of thoughts on the idea that male privilege comes from the hands, teaching, nurturing of women themselves. I can look to my mother ( and MANY like her) to see exactly how to raise/ feed and nurture male privilege. I digress.

Butch Voices or Masculine of Center Voices is going through the same sort of issues MWMF has gone through every year since 1976. "Who are we and who are we here for?" At some point, someone decides, or a collective decides and then they stick to it or not. I tend to look at things pretty simply. There is a need for A. If there becomes a need for B and it doesn't conflict with A, then mayhaps they be added to A. If adding B conflicts with A, then maybe B needs to start a group/event/ whatever to suit their needs. Chances are, they will both have groups until someone else comes along and says maybe we need an additional one so that A AND B can be together during this one and we'll call it C. This is how things eventually evolve. Unfortunately, it is never without growing pains.

Very happy to see this subject being discussed frankly. Thank you all.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Please see below:

What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.

[Heart]

I don't think Jess was debating, I think Jess was speaking to issues related to the Butch Voices controversy that is being discussed here by lesbians.

Sheesh.

[Apocalipstic]

For me, how we as Butch/Femme Lesbians have been received and accepted (or not) by the Lesbian community at large is germane to the subject of Lesbians....though I agree...not to leaping.

Since I found on line community on line I have been lost with the having to call Butches "he" and the expectation that as Femme I be completely feminine, passive and a home ec enthusiast.

How this plays out politically is very important to me.

[Deborah]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I'm not picking up on cheese, but I am smelling baloney.

You know I dont understand this whole discussion and have no intent in debating any of this...(never understood why people couldnt just be who they believe themselves to be without someone else judging if that is correct or not based on their definition) but thats not why I am here....if I am wrong please excuse me but did you just tell 'cutewiddlewesbian' that what she feels about herself is 'baloney'.....where I come from that is just wrong....and it bothers me that people just went on debating their position and didnt even notice....I am sitting here shaking my head at how folks get all caught up in themselves...