2012 - What does it mean to you?

[Joe Mario]

Why does everyone get all jiggy over the Neptune Cycle?

...Just askin'...

[Blade]

I agree with others here, it's a bunch of hype and as someone said I've already lived through several end of the world dates. I figure it like this. We are all gonna die sometime. It's what we all have in common. The minute of birth we start to die. So I've been waiting 47 yrs to die, and by then it will be 50 yrs I've waited to die. So if it comes it comes and if it don't then perhaps I'll make 51, but lets not rush things I want to finish 47,and do 48 and 49 first.

[Boots13]

I'm definitely curious. Just as I was curious about Y2K, and I'm observant and curious about nuclear warheads being constructed. I'm also curious
about biological warfare, and terrorism and I have a mild curiosity over errant meteors slingshoting their way to terra firma.

I guess, in short, while these things snag my attention, what can I/we really do about things that escape our immediate control ?

I think something is bound to happen somewhere...then I'll go get a cup of coffee and be glad some god-awful cataclysmic event didn't take place.

And in the meantime live every moment like it might...cause you never know.

[Sachita]

I think something will happen. I'm just not sure what.

[SuperFemme]

I think 2012 will begin an averge weight of 235 amongst women.

Who is average now bitches?

[LadyFlamezzz]

I watched the big documentary on the supposed event and I came away with this idea....true enough the milky way does have a black hole in the center which we all know the gravitational pull of a black hole, right? The alignment with our core <earth> has to have some kind of effect much like that of a full moon accept greater. The oceans waters will rise creating floods. To what degree who knows. The cycle of life could be changed drastically if the earths movement is changed to the .1 degree they said it would, it would create a counter clockwise rotation flipping the poles. I don't think this would be an over night event though. It would take years and years causing a gradual altering of the entire life cycle on the planet.

just my three cents

[Write14u]

I tend to agree with Corkey. I'm not sure why the Bible thumpers are jumping on this one since the Bible says that: No man knows the hour or day.
I remember growing up in the church and there being a big deal made of 1984 ...and then 1999. Fascinating stuff, and while Revelations does talk of end times, wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc.... well, those things have been going on for a long time too.

[Jet]

Just another year, FF

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by LadyFlamezzz

I watched the big documentary on the supposed event and I came away with this idea....true enough the milky way does have a black hole in the center which we all know the gravitational pull of a black hole, right? The alignment with our core <earth> has to have some kind of effect much like that of a full moon accept greater. The oceans waters will rise creating floods. To what degree who knows. The cycle of life could be changed drastically if the earths movement is changed to the .1 degree they said it would, it would create a counter clockwise rotation flipping the poles. I don't think this would be an over night event though. It would take years and years causing a gradual altering of the entire life cycle on the planet.

just my three cents

I hate to ruin the party here (well, sort of) but there's a couple of things I think need to be clarified here because the supposed 'science' behind the 2012 idea is actually a misunderstanding of the science.

I'll take these one-by-one:

1. Black hole at the center of the galaxy: Is there a black hole at the center of the galaxy? Yes. Does that black hole have any gravitational effect on the Earth? No. At least none that is measurable. Why? Because gravity falls off according to the inverse square law. What this means is that, like all other measurable fields, the strength declines as a *square* of the distance to the source of that field. Even though the supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy has a gigantic gravitational field, it is not strong enough to have any effect on our local neighborhood. What holds our solar system in its little neighborhood of the Milky Way is the angular momentum of the solar system in relation to the rest of the galaxy, NOT the supermassive black hole itself. To give you a sense of the gravitational forces effecting Earth consider the following three celestial bodies: the Sun, the Moon, and Jupiter. Obviously the Sun, being the center of gravity for the solar system has the largest effect. The Moon has an effect on the Earth which causes the tides. Jupiter, which is the next largest gravitational body in the Solar system, has an effect ONLY in as much as it acts like a gigantic vacuum cleaner hoovering up Oort cloud objects (read comets) and asteroids before they reach the inner solar system.
2. Polar shift: Here the misunderstanding is caused by mistaking the magnetic North pole from the arbitrary geologic point we label the North pole. These are not the same thing. As it turns out, what we *call* the North pole happens to correlate with the magnetic North pole but that has not always been the case. At various points in the Earth's history, the magnetic poles have flipped and the magnetic poles do 'wander' a bit because of geophysics of the Earth's core (which is what causes the Earth's magnetic field). However, these flips are ONLY of the magnetic poles and not the *physical* (arbitrary) points on the map we call the North and South poles. That would require rotating the Earth 180 degrees on its axis. Could this happen? Highly doubtful and any force that COULD do that would sterilize the surface of the Earth. How can we be so certain of this? Two events, one in the very distant past and one in the relatively recent past (on geologic terms not human terms) demonstrates why. At some point, the object that became the Moon slammed into the early Earth almost shattering the planet and creating the Earth-Moon gravitational system. This impact most likely created the 23 degree axial tilt of the Earth (the Earth does not, in fact, rotate perpendicular to the plane of orbit but at an angle which is what gives us seasons). The other event is the last *major* impact the Earth went through which was the K-T extinction event which wiped out the dinosaurs. In that event an meteor about the size of Manhattan island (6 miles in diameter or so) slammed into the Earth. This impact was so traumatic that crystals on the *other* side of the planet from the impact have a 'shock mark' through them! It rang the planet like a bell and through up huge amounts of material into the atmosphere and wiped out 50 - 70 % of all life on the planet. But it did not effect either the angular momentum (rotation) or the orientation (axial tilt) of the Earth at all! Even if we took every single nuclear weapon on the planet, piled them all up on one side of the planet and detonated them simultaneously it would not change the axial tilt of the Earth.
3. Alignment with the galactic plane: Where to begin with this one? The simplest thing is that every December the Earth-Sun system lines up with the approximate center of the galaxy with no effect. There is nothing special about the galactic plane itself and Earth is not about to cross the galactic plane at any rate. The last time we did was several *million* years ago.
4. Solar follies: The last one is the idea that a massive solar flare will flip the Earth on its axis. Most of why this is *impossible* I've already covered in the polar shift section. However, it might be useful to just inject that a solar flare would NOT have the mass necessary to move the Earth at all because the Earth is hugely massive. Think about it this way. Imagine that you are in, say, a 747 on the tarmac. Someone shines a gigantic spotlight on the airplane. Will this cause the plane to move? No. Do all of those photons striking the plane actually put pressure on the plane? Yes, as a matter of fact they do but the amount of pressure compared with the mass of the plane is negligible. The same is true of any *conceivable* solar flare. Any flare that was large enough to cause us worry would not be because it would cause the Earth to change its axial orientation. Rather it would be that it would ionize the atmosphere shutting down our very complex electronic civilization. However, the magnetic field of the Earth protects us from the worst of those effects.
5. Meteor strikes: Might we be hit by a meteor in 2012? This is *possible* however, there are no *known* objects that will make a close pass to the Earth in 2012. The next near close pass of a major object is Apophis in 2029. That pass will be VERY close, beneath the orbit of geosynchronous orbit satellites (25K miles or so) but it is not expected to hit the Earth in 2029. However, there is a non-zero probability that it will pass through a *very* small region labeled the 'keyhole' which if it does, it *will* hit the Earth in 2035 when it is on its way out of the solar system. However, the 'keyhole' is a region of maybe only a five or ten miles. To give you a sense of context, imagine standing in New York City and trying to shoot a basket hanging somewhere in central China!

The whole 2012 thing is hype and nothing more. It sells books, it sells movie tickets but there is nothing to it. Dec 21 2012 will come and go and Dec 22 2012 will come and go. People who have made their money on the 2012 hysteria will have their money and they will then go on to pretend that they DIDN'T make predictions that failed to come true and will then start hyping the Apophis event in 2029. There is NO scientific basis for believing that anything at all interesting will happen on Dec 21 2012 unless humans do something incredibly stupid but that isn't the kind of thing we're discussing here.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by LadyFlamezzz

I watched the big documentary on the supposed event and I came away with this idea....true enough the milky way does have a black hole in the center which we all know the gravitational pull of a black hole, right? The alignment with our core <earth> has to have some kind of effect much like that of a full moon accept greater. The oceans waters will rise creating floods. To what degree who knows. The cycle of life could be changed drastically if the earths movement is changed to the .1 degree they said it would, it would create a counter clockwise rotation flipping the poles. I don't think this would be an over night event though. It would take years and years causing a gradual altering of the entire life cycle on the planet.

just my three cents

Lady Flamezz:

I thought I'd add a bit more about the supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy and why it has no measurable effect on us. In order to understand the full implications of this, it's necessary to dive a bit deeper into gravity--what it is and how it works.

So....

Gravity is the warping of space-time by the presence of mass. The more massive an object is, the more gravitational influence it has. One implication of this is that, EVERYTHING with mass has SOME gravitational influence. That includes you, me, and everything else. However, your mass compared with the mass of the Earth is absolutely negligible so for all practical purposes we can ignore the mass of living things for the kinds of applications we're talking about. Another reason why we can ignore the mass of living things is that gravity is a field and ALL fields obey the inverse square law. To understand this falling off, let's take an ideal situation.

Imagine a sphere that has mass. At distance 1R from the sphere, let's say that there are 9 'lines of force' radiating out in all directions contained in a box that we'll label B1. The lines of force in B1 will be F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F At distance 2R there will be *four* foxes which will have a pattern like B1: F-F-F B2: F-F-F B3: F-F B4: F-F. At distance 3R: there will be *nine* boxes with one line of force. The more F's in a box the greater the force. So a box with 9 lines of force in it has a greater amount of force than a box with one line of force.

The reason I explained this was to give you some way of visualizing what is happening with the gravitational force between the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way and the Earth. Now, we are 30,000 light years from the galactic center. A light year is 5,878,488,057,210 miles. That is an incomprehensible distance! To put it into scale, it takes light about 8 minutes to traverse the 93 million miles from the Sun to Earth. Moving at that speed it takes 30,000 years to traverse the distance between the Sun and the galactic center. Gravity propagates through space at the speed of light. Now, what I'm trying to get you to visualize is this: the gravitational effect of the galactic center is negligible while still being non-zero. However, it is so negligible as to not be worth considering for ANY applications that we're likely to use. (The only one I can think of where we would need it is to account for what is caused 'gravity lensing' when dealing with an object on the *other* side of the galaxy from us.)

The gravitational force of the galactic center has NO effect on the tides (which are effected by the Moon pulling on the crust of the Earth slightly deforming it and causing the water to rise).

The axial tilt of the Earth does not stay precisely at 23 degrees, by the way. It actually precedes at MORE than the .1 degree you mention (it actually changes about 1 degree over a 72 year cycle).

As far as the Earth ever reversing its rotational direction that will NEVER happen. The angular momentum of the Earth (angular momentum is what keeps you upright when riding a bike) has so much energy in it that any force that would change that angular momentum enough to effect our rotation so drastically would literally shatter the Earth into pieces.

Cheers
Aj

[Jet]

I like the informative post by da geek Personally, I don't subscribe to the ancients, in theories or conjecture or anything paranormal. I believe in logic and scientific proof. I also believe is that God has things in control. I believe if we're meant to know things that become facts, we'll know.

Sidebar: I don't regard God, the supernatural or preter-natural as paranormal in the usual sense.

[Apocalipstic]

Yeahhh, how many times has Earth been supposed to end in my life time alone?

When I was a kid I would get all bent out of shape and scared, now I am jaded. 2012 will be just another year. Probably more annoying than usual with people acting like they did in Y2K and stocking up on wheat, water and Spam.

Really interesting posts as always AJ!

and

For those of you who do believe in the "Celestial Dictaphone" version of the Bible. Jesus warned his followers several times that the end would happen when we least expect it.

[NJFemmie]

From as astrological standpoint - the Pluto-Jupiter-Saturn quincunx on that date does signify an intense spiritual change/enlightenment of sort - also indicating a 'painful' transformation for some (thanks to Saturn and Jupiter). In a nutshell, it does signifies a new beginning - both on a personal level and a collective level. (These planets are more "generational" than they are "individual" and the effects vary upon the placement of these planets in a person's chart.)

Yeah, I know .. blah blah blah. It means something is going to happen, but I really don't believe it will be the end of the physical world. It might feel that way to some - (but that will be more on an emotional level).

Change is good, even if it feels bad at first.

Otherwise, I'll be 46 in 2012, Mare will be 49. Hopefully by then, we'll have our farm and a pot belly pig named Harold. Oh and a chicken, and maybe a horse or two. (and no, not of the apocalyptic breed).

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

From as astrological standpoint - the Pluto-Jupiter-Saturn quincunx on that date does signify an intense spiritual change/enlightenment of sort - also indicating a 'painful' transformation for some (thanks to Saturn and Jupiter). In a nutshell, it does signifies a new beginning - both on a personal level and a collective level. (These planets are more "generational" than they are "individual" and the effects vary upon the placement of these planets in a person's chart.)

Yeah, I know .. blah blah blah. It means something is going to happen, but I really don't believe it will be the end of the physical world. It might feel that way to some - (but that will be more on an emotional level).

Change is good, even if it feels bad at first.

Otherwise, I'll be 46 in 2012, Mare will be 49. Hopefully by then, we'll have our farm and a pot belly pig named Harold. Oh and a chicken, and maybe a horse or two. (and no, not of the apocalyptic breed).

I totally agree with you. How exactly it will manifest is yet to be seen. I will always be prepared for things but my most important preparation is my spiritual consciousness. I have been increase my vibration and doing what I need to do to prepare for the future, whatever that means.

Although I am not an expert I am certain it's all about
Quantum Physics
http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html

What reality will you manifest?

I will be with my soulmate, we will be happy each moment we breathe. It will be our commitment to feed each other and keep each other safe.

Things are aligning and change is inevitable. The planet has always shifted and change. This will be great change. Will it happen all one one day? No, I dont think so but i do believe there will be a great sign. Its already happening all around us.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKyNIY9oMnw"]YouTube- Lisa Thiel - Song to Inanna[/ame]

[DELSDAUGHTER]

nothing...over my life time..they have said the world was gonna end a couple of times....i will believe when i see it........and by that time i wont have time to care anyway

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Although I am not an expert I am certain it's all about
Quantum Physics
http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html

I don't see how it could have anything to do with quantum physics. The reasons for this will require a bit of explanation.

QM (quantum physics) is a theory dealing only with microscopic objects. By this I mean that it really only deals with *sub-atomic* objects. The reason for this is that the sub-atomic world deals with objects on what is called the Planck length. The Planck length is the smallest conceivable distance. It is 10^-43 (that's a 1 with 43 zeros in front of it). Atoms are HUGE compared to the Planck length. Once you start talking about molecules and other macro-objects (and for our purposes here even a single bacterial spore is a macro-object) all of the various statistical effects cancel one another out and we can safely treat that object as a classical phenomena (meaning we don't need to use quantum physics). (This is not ALWAYS the case, computer circuitry is becoming so small that engineers have to take into account quantum mechanical effects but they are building logic gates that are only, maybe, a dozen or so atoms across. To give you a sense of scale the average human hair is between 800,000 and 1,200,000 atoms across.)

Quantum mechanics is necessary when talking about things like the nucleus of an atom or the electron shells around that nucleus but that is really about all. The only OTHER exception I can think of is when you are dealing with the interior of a black hole (which, no matter the size of the black hole's event horizon can be treated as a singularity at or a little larger than the Planck length). However, it's important to note that this ONLY applies to the *interior* of a black hole, once you are beyond the event horizon black holes can be treated as relativistic objects because they are so massive and you can ignore any quantum mechanical effects.

Fritjof Capra and Fred Alan Wolf (Dr. Quantum) not-with-standing people in the mainstream of physics do not ascribe quantum mechanical effects to macro-objects.

Another important thing to remember about quantum mechanics is that it is a *statistical* theory. While it is still deterministic what is usually talked about is the probability that, for instance, a given electron will be found in a given orbit (shell) of an atom.

Quantum mechanics is a vital part of what is called the Standard Model of particle physics but the key words here are *particle* physics. QM enables physicists to describe the four fundamental forces (electromagnetic, gravitational, strong and weak nuclear)*, what they are made of (quarks and bozons) and why they have the strengths they do. However, once you are talking about objects *effected* by those forces typically quantum mechanics is not particularly useful.

Anything the size of the Earth and certainly any living things ON the Earth are too large and too hot (from a thermodynamic perspective) for quantum mechanics to apply to them. Even a single neuron in your brain is too large and too hot for quantum mechanics to be usefully applied to it.

I'm not saying that it is absolutely *impossible* just very, very, very, very, very, very improbable!

*The four forces in order of strength are:

1. Strong nuclear force: Responsible for holding atoms together. Messenger particle is the gluon.
2. Weak nuclear force: Responsible for atomic decay. Messenger particle the W and Z gauge bozons.
3. Electromagnetic force: Responsible for light, electricity and magnetism. Messenger particle is the photon.**
4. Gravity: Warping of space-time by the presence of mass. Messenger particle is the graviton.

** To appreciate the difference in strength values between the electromagnetic force and the gravitational force (the two forces we're most familiar with) try this. During a thunderstorm take a comb and rub it on your shirt (best if it is wool) then hold that comb over a piece of unimpeded paper sitting on your desk. It should lift the paper. Think about this. It takes the mass of the entire PLANET to hold the paper on the desk and only the small amount of static electricity you can generate during a thunderstorm with a comb to overcome the planet's gravity!

Here is a link to a paper I wrote on the misuse of quantum mechanics for a philosophy of science class last term. While I wrote it with my professor (who was a chemist in another career incarnation) as a target audience it should still be accessible to most people (I hope):

http://web.me.com/dreadgeek/Dreaded_...mysticism.html

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Here is a link to a paper I wrote on the misuse of quantum mechanics for a philosophy of science class last term. While I wrote it with my professor (who was a chemist in another career incarnation) as a target audience it should still be accessible to most people (I hope):

http://web.me.com/dreadgeek/Dreaded_...mysticism.html

That is a fantastic paper and I wish it was short enough to have posted it here directly. You are very good at explaining complex theories to a layperson.
That paper deserves a thread of it's own.
Just say No to New Age Fascism!
"any meaning-creation systems we deploy should be in line with science or, if that is not possible, they should stay as far away from the purview of science as is humanly possible." Indeed.

[Glenn]

Last Nov. 3, www.bbc.co.uk aired a documentary on the subject of black holes. In the search of Black Holes they found something that is the building block of existence, and a subject that keeps the balance in the Universe. They said this discovery has frightened scientists as they can't make sense of it. They have found something which cannot be seen, it is so small yet it's mass equals infinity. It's where time stops and there is no Space. This is where physics fails. This is where the Universe came from and is at the centre of each black hole. It cannot be seen, but will give traces of light. There are millions of it, and I'm sure science will discover it is closer to home then they think. Science has given this place where infinite Gravity and Infinite Density exists the name "Singularity." This "Singularity" is something they cannot explain as the equations make this equal Infinity. Theory of Relativity is thrown out the window, and when they use Quatum Mechanics it gets even worse as this equals Infinity x Infinity. Astrologically, there will be an alignment, but we cannot say for certain what will occur.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Last Nov. 3, www.bbc.co.uk aired a documentary on the subject of black holes. In the search of Black Holes they found something that is the building block of existence, and a subject that keeps the balance in the Universe. They said this discovery has frightened scientists as they can't make sense of it. They have found something which cannot be seen, it is so small yet it's mass equals infinity. It's where time stops and there is no Space. This is where physics fails. This is where the Universe came from and is at the centre of each black hole. It cannot be seen, but will give traces of light. There are millions of it, and I'm sure science will discover it is closer to home then they think. Science has given this place where infinite Gravity and Infinite Density exists the name "Singularity." This "Singularity" is something they cannot explain as the equations make this equal Infinity. Theory of Relativity is thrown out the window, and when they use Quatum Mechanics it gets even worse as this equals Infinity x Infinity. Astrologically, there will be an alignment, but we cannot say for certain what will occur.

Okay, a bit of clarification. A singularity is a mathematical construction to describe the center of a black hole. It doesn't terrify scientists it is interesting. The issue with the interior of a black hole is that you need two different, mutually exclusive models, to deal with it. Those two models are quantum mechanics (which deals with very small objects as discussed above) and general relativity. The problem with this is that the two theories do *not* agree and when you try to use them both, you get nonsensical answers (infinity). There are several prospects on the table to deal with this situation, string theory is one (although it may not pan out) and loop quantum gravity is another. Both are altogether too arcane and technical for me to delve into here.

The singularity as the beginning of the Universe is not used anymore. It is an artifact of cosmology that includes general relativity but not quantum mechanics. If you 'roll the tape backwards' to the beginning of the Universe without incorporating quantum mechanics you end up with an infinitely dense mass in an infinitely small space (a singularity). However, later developments in cosmology that *do* incorporate quantum mechanics eliminate the need for a singularity and no one in cosmology uses it any longer.

Singularities do *not* keep the balance of the Universe because the Universe is not in balance. Dark matter and dark energy (whatever they are) are *far* more important at explaining the expansion of the Universe (and thus its topology) than black holes or singularities.

Actually if there were a black hole in our immediate neighborhood, we would detect it. They are NOT subtle objects. Black holes have a number of very noticeable effects if they are in the neighborhood of other objects so it would NOT sneak up on us. Our sun lacks the mass to become a black hole by a couple of orders of magnitude. The nearest black hole to us is the SMBH at the center of the galaxy and that is 30,000 light years away (that's 17,634,641,716,300,000 miles away!).

There are millions of black holes, in fact all the spiral galaxies appear to have supermassive black holes at the center of them but they are ALL very far away from us.

To say that black holes terrify scientists because we don't fully understand the physics of them is an insult to scientists. It is that lack of understanding that creates interesting scientific work. The only reason it would terrify them if, for some reason, we found one in our immediate (solar) neighborhood but there isn't one and there isn't anything near (within a few hundred light years) massive enough to create one.


Cheers
Aj

[SuperFemme]

I think he is responsible for the singularity: