A request

[DapperButch]

During the 12+ years that I have been a part of the online b/f community, there has always been an acknowledgment that not all female identified butches define as women. Posts have always reflected this awareness.

In the threads that I have been reading over the last several months (including the current ones in the trans zone), on this site, it seems as though the words, at times, are starting to be used interchangeably (female and woman), or we, at least are maybe moving towards that.

Although I am a TG Butch (I do not identify as a "female identified butch", or a "male identified butch"), I am still "butch" and it hurts my heart a little (which is simply WEIRD in and of it itself, lol), when I see this happening. It was nice to be a part of a community that separated out one's sex (female), from one's gender (woman).

I think (my theory) that the reason this is occuring is b/c several of our more verbal female id'd butches on this site define as both female and women, so the term "butch women" seems to be used a lot (as a natural form of expression for them). It seems as though when the site first started, care was taken to separate out female from women as it was at the other popular b/f sites, but that kind of slid away here.

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

(I hope that this post is read in the earnest, sincere, and genuine way in which it was written..and not in a "sense of entitlement" sort of way. I do not think that I am the only one who is concerned about this issue).

Thanks.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Oh DapperButch,

I am so very sorry. Please accept my appology. It is the thread you are talking about in your post that I did start a day or so ago and used the wording "women" in the trans zone. I meant no harm. Honest.

I will ask Linus to fix it if he can.

Again, my apology to you.

Namaste,
Andrew

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

Oh DapperButch,

I am so very sorry. Please accept my appology. It is the thread you are talking about in your post that I did start a day or so ago and used the wording "women" in the trans zone. I meant no harm. Honest.

I will ask Linus to fix it if he can.

Again, my apology to you.

Namaste,
Andrew

No, Andrew. I was not speaking to your post/thread at all.

I am referring to when butches (especially if designated as female id'd butches) are automatically viewed as identifying as women.

As a side note, I was actually wondering if this post should be placed in the gender, identities, and labels forum? Linus?

Thanks.

(side note to Andrew: if you were referring to femmes specifically in that thread...it may be best for you to say that ... otherwise the word women may be construed as meaning both femmes and women identified butches. Just trying to be helpful, here)

[BullDog]

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Bulldog, I am right there with you. I am tired of people trying to erase butch women. I for one Identify as Butch Woman/Lesbian and Online It seems I have to be even more specific as to saying I am female Identified, as oposed to just being a lesbian butch woman, like it used to be in the older days of coming out for me. I do know not all butches Identify with being a lesbian, and not all butches ID as female or woman. I know for some it's a huge difference to ID as woman but not female, which even confuses me a tad bit. All the lingo has changed so much sometimes I can't even keep up with it. Maybe I can get you to pm me sometime to explain this lingo to me. the difference between female and woman thing online that is. I do commend you for ALWAYS stepping up to the plate about invisibility issues. Thanks.

[TenderKnight]

Hiya Dapper,

I can understand where you are coming from.. I've been on various butch/femme sites on and off again for about 10 years now and have seen a LOT of orbiting from one extreme to another.. In the late 90's, I had no idea what butch was, or femme, much less trans. When I came out, I came out as a lesbian, then as butch, then as TG butch, and now as trans.. Through all of that, I have seen a LOT of debates about pronouns, ID's, labels.. I don't know, maybe it is just a case of critical mass, there gets to be so much frustration within any ID'ing group that it kinda spills over.. Then people become PC and try to let that group know that, "hey, we get you.."

Maybe that is where we are now? Trans and TG and male identified has become the "buzz" word in the last couple of years.. Great for me, personally, being that I am a transgender person, but not so great for those that have had to take a back seat, at times, to the buzz word.. I get that you may feel that your personal ID and way of living and being is being ignored and maybe even becoming invisable..

I do get it.. I have no answers, but I will try to be respectful in my posts and my interactions with others on this site and in the "Real World". Thank you for the thread and the heads up.

In Light,
Tony

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

I never said it doesn't make sense to me to separate sex from gender in the case of women/female.

Your request seemed to be aimed at outspoken butch woman and things we are saying. As one of them, I am not clear on what your request is.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

[AtLast]

I have to ask something. This is not about Dapper's request being denied at all in terms of hys personal desires. It is important to recognize how someone else defines their gender and self. Since joining a B-F site (not even 3 years ago), I have been amazed at the general degradation of the term woman. As applied to butches or femmes. I have felt both anger and puzzlement over this.

Frankly, I don't believe this has a thing to do with or is about gender identification, but everything to do with this community mirroring the prevailing (and ages long) view of women as less than men and that the only purpose a woman can possibly have is that which serves men. (And no, this is not any kind of a dig concerning BDSM service, which is something quite different) that I have no problem with).

Among every vein of butch identity I see this and often the same caddy interactions among femmes reflecting relationships among women in US society at large. The competitiveness, the put downs. The distrust- all based upon the same old sexist stereotypes.

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. I didn’t want this kind of attitudinal framework as a heterosexual, a bi-sexual, or a garden-variety lesbian. Nor do I want it as a queer lesbian butch woman! And I sure as hell don’t want the same things I lived with as a young woman for my grand daughters, no matter how they choose to identify in terms of sexuality or gender.

Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is.

And no, not all TG men are sexist, in fact, most I know are strong feminists. Also, there exist misogynist FIBs as well as MIBs along with every other identification in between as well and misogynist femmes of every identification.


Sometimes, I just wish we would get our heads out of the sand and take on the issues that hurt us outside of our little web-world (like sexism). Issues around gender are extremely significant in doing so. But our butch-wars are not! My personal rendering of butch is no more important or significant than any other person's on this site. Can't we work with one another?

I know…. The soap box….

[Nat]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

Hi I was wondering if you could give examples? They don't need to be direct quotes from the site, but maybe some made-up examples? I'm a big fan of language and wording, but I do have a hard time figuring out sometimes how to best linguistically apply requests such as these without bumping up against others' requests. Are you talking about when butches are discussed in a more general sense or are you talking more about how people think/speak of you?

[GoofyLuvr]

Point well made. Something more to think on.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Nat

Hi I was wondering if you could give examples? They don't need to be direct quotes from the site, but maybe some made-up examples? I'm a big fan of language and wording, but I do have a hard time figuring out sometimes how to best linguistically apply requests such as these without bumping up against others' requests. Are you talking about when butches are discussed in a more general sense or are you talking more about how people think/speak of you?

Hi, Nat.

I don't know if you were on the dash site/other b/f sites in the past , but one thing that I noticed, was that people would often say "female and/or women identified butches"...or something along those lines, I can't think of how most wrote it right now...there was always an acknowledgement of not all butches identifying as women (people used that same sort of language here at the Planet when it first opened, as well).

I am not speaking to the issue of male identied versus female identified butches. That is not what I am talking about.

I am only speaking to the issue of mixing up sex with gender...assuming that a female (sex) butch also identifies as a woman (gender).

Over the years, many butches have indicated that they do not view themselves as women.

Make sense?

The thing is, I was just throwing it out there...something that I have noticed and I took the chance of saying something, hoping that others knew what I was talking about. I am not even saying it is happening a whole lot, or is even really direct at this point...I just was concerned that it was moving in this direction and wondered if others noticed it as well.

If it is something that people want to think about, cool. If not, that is cool too.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I am only speaking to the issue of mixing up sex with gender...assuming that a female (sex) butch also identifies as a woman (gender).

Over the years, many butches have indicated that they do not view themselves as women.

Make sense?

Ummm....no. And let me preface this by saying I'm still in my self-proclaimed "newly hatched" stage with little experience, and also that I've had a really, really, really tough couple of days.... so it may make perfect sense to everyone else here and I'm just not understanding. But I'm trying to.... so any enlightenment would be most appreciated.

Here's where I get hung up. I get that female is sex/anatomical. I get that woman is gender...which is more of an internalized perception of who I am.

I get that there are butches who claim male gender or ID.

Where I'm stuck is trying to wrap my head around how someone can be a female-ID'ed butch and not view themselves as a woman.

For the record, I adore a magnificent butch woman...so I'm not slinging off at anyone. I'm just confused as all get out...

[Beau]

Originally Posted by BullDog

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

It's not nice. It's not necessary to demean anyone.

Originally Posted by JustBeingMe

I know for some it's a huge difference to ID as woman but not female, which even confuses me a tad bit. All the lingo has changed so much sometimes I can't even keep up with it.

It's difficult to follow how gender IDs morph and the individual meanings given these identifications. I can't keep up either, so I try to be respectful of all and never assume. That's all we can do.

Originally Posted by BullDog

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

I just wanted to repeat this because I believe Dapper's recent perceptions may have stemmed from other discussions where the attempt has been made to give butch women more visibility and voice. Other than that, I truly have not seen any shift toward the assumption that butch = woman. Also, femme invisibility is rarely given the discussion it deserves, and I think your point here is valid. Thanks for putting it in this context.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

I bussed the tables at the last supper, so I feel your confusion with the changes you see here online.

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.

So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

[Heart]

I may be asking JustJo's question slightly differently: What is it, for a female-identified butch, that is uncomfortable/inappropriate about being called a woman? In other words, what does "woman" MEAN that you do not wish to be identified with/as?

This is not meant to be snarky or to put a microscope on anyone. I just wonder if the definition of "woman" gets so stereotyped and rigid that even those who are female can't identify with it. And not just butches. There are femmes who do not identify with the word either.

Perhaps I will start yet another thread: What does WOMAN mean?

Full disclosure: For me, having female-identified people reject the identity of woman feels like a loss. And I mean that in a political/historical/emotional/social/cultural context.

Heart

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Beau

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.
So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

I have to admit that sometimes I just feel confused/frustrated/tired when it comes to all the labels and identities. OF COURSE, I respect everyone and their choice of label and identity... I do. And I do love to read/learn/process/discuss it. I love the debate. And I want folks to feel respected and called their chosen name (his/him/hys/hym/hyr/her/hir...)

AND

Sometimes for me I get to this place in my head where I think, in the straight world, we get so labeled and stereotyped...do we really want to continue down that path in the Queer world? Are we just separating more?

AND

Then I think, well people are going to label us anyway (human nature?), outside and inside the community, so might as well pick something you like!

[tantalizingfemme]

I have read through this thread a couple of times and can honestly say I am lost as to how the OP's request of:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

turned into:

Originally Posted by rlin

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The assertion that attitudes and behaviors are less favorable towards women-identified butches and more favorable towards male-identified butches confuses me since the start of this site, I saw the woman-identified butch celebrated, not degraded.

A perfect example is the thread
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ht=butch+women

Thanks....

[Dylan]

I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan

This thread isn't one about butches who identify other than woman- it was a request for butch women to make sure they don't forget to say not all female butches are women.

Apparently you don't like the responses.

I am a butch. I am female. I am a woman. If you are female and things line up differently for you, by all means let us know. I don't need to qualify things when I speaking about butch women.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This thread isn't one about butches who identify other than woman- it was a request for butch women to make sure they don't forget to say not all female butches are women.

Apparently you don't like the responses.

I am a butch. I am female. I am a woman. If you are female and things line up differently for you, by all means let us know. I don't need to qualify things when I speaking about butch women.

I don't think Dapper was speaking to butch women only but rather to the community at large. (I could be wrong but that was how I understood the thread since it's under the general Gender, Labels, Identities forum rather than The Butch Zone).

I almost equate this to "I recognize others but I don't want to be lost in the shuffle either please". I don't think it's wrong for someone to want to stand up and let their voice be heard as is; that it is neither wrong or right but the way they are, the way we all are, the diverseness of "we" make our community that much more greater.