FTM place to vent and talk

[Linus]

And just so that people realize this: the creation of this thread has made it one of the most watched thread by not just FTMs but others. This isn't a private thread.

Remember that when posting.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by DMW

weatherboi, i didn't mean any disrespect to any of the other femmes from that thread. Nor, to you. And that is true...i should not have mentioned it. maybe i will ask for this space to be taken off. i almost did yesterday. I am sorry that i upset you. I am not pitting anyone against anyone...i was just trying to take away some of the stress.
If the thread gets taken down...that is ok by me. I don't want the responsibility of the OP...or claim that this space is mine to police or what have you. I am not a moderator. I will let them have at it or ask them to close the thread myself. Seriously, it's all good to me. I am not coming from an angry place or anything like that. Just sayin

And I don't want this thread shut down. I mentioned this yesterday to the moderation team how right now I was feeling unwelcomed in my own community. Now, granted that part of that is due to my own busy life and such but at the same time, there are things here that I think are due to a huge lack of us carving out our own sense of community or existence (or however it could be termed).

I think we need this space. Transmen tend to fade into the woodwork. It's easier for us. The transforums I've run into a run by transwomen and are geared more for transwomen. There is space for us there but it's overwhelming leaned towards one side. For me, I have a history with this community and I personally taking a stand that we not fade into the woodwork.

We need to do the work, the sweat, the tears (although crying has stopped for me since beginning T; anyone else?!), the blood and so on. We have an experience that needs to be shared but needs to be done so without "othering".. well.. others. We need to build our history.

I want a community that I can belong to and feel safe with, dammit. And if it's not here, then I'm screwed.

So rather than give up, who else will stand?

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

.

scratches you off the list of Ftm's I want to support.
To say something like this figuring you will get shit
but saying it anyway is way off base and
speaks to your self esteem issues not mine or anyone else's.

No envy here.
This is where the line in the sand gets drawn , for me.
Completely content being the butch that I am.
Crap talk like this does nothing to foster allies or friendships.

[weatherboi]

No worries DMW really!
I want to see this thread be successful. We are all equal peers here and trying to navigate individual rides.

Originally Posted by DMW

weatherboi, i didn't mean any disrespect to any of the other femmes from that thread. Nor, to you. And that is true...i should not have mentioned it. maybe i will ask for this space to be taken off. i almost did yesterday. I am sorry that i upset you. I am not pitting anyone against anyone...i was just trying to take away some of the stress.
If the thread gets taken down...that is ok by me. I don't want the responsibility of the OP...or claim that this space is mine to police or what have you. I am not a moderator. I will let them have at it or ask them to close the thread myself. Seriously, it's all good to me. I am not coming from an angry place or anything like that. Just sayin

[DMW]

Linus i am sorry, and i am sorry that i hurt weatherboi's feelings.
I thought about how the thread should have been started at a less emotionally charged time. If the moderators have to give me a time out that is ok by me. I will not ask them to shut down the thread.
I realize that the TOS says don't bring drama from one thread to another.
I didn't realize that saying something positive about one person would also bother someone else. That is sad. I will be very careful with what i say and i will also take a timeout if it has to be given.
That is ok. This thread should not be taken away from everyone because of a few people.

Thank you weatherboi...i am sorry. I honestly didn't realize that what i said about another thread could be misconstrued as rude. eventhough it was positive. I truly am sorry for that. Thank you for talking to me about it...i got some added time before work cause of this. I don't like hurting peoples feelings. Thank you

[Linus]

Originally Posted by DMW

Linus i am sorry, and i am sorry that i hurt weatherboi's feelings.
I thought about how the tread should have been started at a less emotionally charged time. If the moderators have to give me a time out that is ok by me. I will not ask them to shut down the thread.
I realize that the TOS says don't bring drama from one thread to another.
I didn't realize that saying something positive about one person would also bother someone else. That is sad. I will be very careful with what i say and i will also take a timeout if it has to be given.
That is ok. This thread should not be taken away from everyone because of a few people.

It's ok. Just remember context is everything.

[Darbonaire]

Let me understand this cause I am NOT out to hurt anyone's feelings or cast aspersions....<walking on eggshells is SO much fun>....

So, let me emphasize this loudly & clearly please..I thought this was a place to share PERSONAL experiences....No, I have NOT found these things to be with every butch, or every FTM, or every Femme or whatever....these are experiences that have happened to me in REAL LIFE so no....no one on here is lumped into any catagory....not by me anyway...or should I say...not with ANY intent by me.

We have ALL experienced different shit in different places & at different times in our life. For some of you to jump on my post saying you don't support me..<like I give a shit btw whether you do or not...whoever you are>.....amuses me. That is your right..yes it is....so I support that. For the others who jumped to say I am disrespecting a GROUP or ALL of the butches, trans, etc. is not true & maybe if you didn't take a personal post from me as some personal affront to you...things would smooth out like they should.

These kinds of exchanges are the perfect examples of why I am not all that hot to post anything or even be on an online site. Written words cannot convey expression or inflection....they are read & "inturpreted" by those reading them. Sometimes the way they are meant...often not however.

So, let me say once again...& most likely for the last time...I am not here to offend, discriminate, cast aspersions upon or any other crap...I am here to share what I have found PERSONALLY in my journey.

So, how about those Braves?

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by DMW

Linus i am sorry, and i am sorry that i hurt weatherboi's feelings.
I thought about how the thread should have been started at a less emotionally charged time. If the moderators have to give me a time out that is ok by me. I will not ask them to shut down the thread.
I realize that the TOS says don't bring drama from one thread to another.
I didn't realize that saying something positive about one person would also bother someone else. That is sad. I will be very careful with what i say and i will also take a timeout if it has to be given.
That is ok. This thread should not be taken away from everyone because of a few people.
Thank you weatherboi...i am sorry. I honestly didn't realize that what i said about another thread could be misconstrued as rude. eventhough it was positive. I truly am sorry for that. Thank you for talking to me about it...i got some added time before work cause of this. I don't like hurting peoples feelings. Thank you

And i now realize that your femme was the femme that understood so well from the other thread

Hey DMW-

I want to thank you for the dialogue and hope you understand after this I am ready to let all this go but

Let me be clear so you understand where I am coming from cause you seem to be missing it.

I have no problem you giving props to femmesational for her understanding of everything. I have no problem giving her props for her support of transfolk. My problem is while you are complimenting one femme you are using it in a way that insults others. Linus is right...context is everything and so is agenda and sometimes that dictates how we say things so I hope we can move forward here understanding what the problem really was. One slip up is one thing to me, but it has now been a few and you are not the only one doing it so I don't blame me questioning motivation, at this point I am guarded but ready to move forward...no more apologies just move forward.

[Greyson]

I agree with Linus and weatherboi about context. Most of the guys who have been here awhile know I I.D. as Transmasculine. Being a life long Butch was very much a part of my journey getting to this point in my gender identity.

For me, once I started the process of transitioning I could no longer ignore that little voice in me that kept asking "Why?" I never identified as a "Woman Identified Butch." In my old thinking a Butch was clearly not a woman in the same sense as Femmes and other women.

I have been a member of the Butch-Femme sites for 12 or 13 years now. I have learned that not all Butches had the same experience or thinking that I did. That also is the same for Transmen. I have been legally a male for a little over three years now and my gender identity is not over.

Back to the "Why" of this. In finally deciding to "transition" for me I had to explore if there was self internalized misoginy involved in my decision. Honestly I did not think there was. I tried to take a hard and focused look as to what growing up in my country has taught me. What is the media, books, movies, "values," traditions, law, policy, religion saying now and historically about women? IMO it is saying, overall that women are meant to be in service to the greater good, sacrafice self if necessary, and raise families. I think women overall through out history were relegated to very pre-defined lives.

What I ultimately had to ask myself is how much of this stuff did I believe on some level? How did my actions, thoughts, biases, and words align with what I thought I believed?

[Hominid]

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Woah woah woah!!!

wtf??? I get we all have some pretty hard experiences in AND out of our own community and it needs to be talked about, but all the lesbian and butch bashing in this thread is gonna get moderated and then we will have no space to talk things out..

[Hominid]

This is great - exactly what I struggled with for a few years before transition. I was afraid I was leaning towards transition for the wrong reasons - thanks for saying this clearly.

Originally Posted by Greyson

I had to explore if there was self internalized misoginy involved in my decision. Honestly I did not think there was. I tried to take a hard and focused look as to what growing up in my country has taught me. What is the media, books, movies, "values," traditions, law, policy, religion saying now and historically about women?
What I ultimately had to ask myself is how much of this stuff did I believe on some level? How did my actions, thoughts, biases, and words align with what I thought I believed?

[Mike]

reading, bbl

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Hominid

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

We do need to self-police. We need to recognize the experiences but rather than navel gaze them to death figure out how to prevent those same experiences from happening to those starting their experience. Not all FTMs come from a lesbian/F&B background. This community has been a supporter of trans individuals and even banned one of the most known transphobic individuals out there.

But I find that kind of person is rarer in this community than common. It sucks that this has happened to some of us (I had my share but not enough to be so vehement about it). I cannot change those individuals but I can be part of this community and let them see me for the man I am rather than what might be assumed about me.

Originally Posted by Greyson

I agree with Linus and weatherboi about context. Most of the guys who have been here awhile know I I.D. as Transmasculine. Being a life long Butch was very much a part of my journey getting to this point in my gender identity.

For me, once I started the process of transitioning I could no longer ignore that little voice in me that kept asking "Why?" I never identified as a "Woman Identified Butch." In my old thinking a Butch was clearly not a woman in the same sense as Femmes and other women.

I have been a member of the Butch-Femme sites for 12 or 13 years now. I have learned that not all Butches had the same experience or thinking that I did. That also is the same for Transmen. I have been legally a male for a little over three years now and my gender identity is not over.

Back to the "Why" of this. In finally deciding to "transition" for me I had to explore if there was self internalized misoginy involved in my decision. Honestly I did not think there was. I tried to take a hard and focused look as to what growing up in my country has taught me. What is the media, books, movies, "values," traditions, law, policy, religion saying now and historically about women? IMO it is saying, overall that women are meant to be in service to the greater good, sacrafice self if necessary, and raise families. I think women overall through out history were relegated to very pre-defined lives.

What I ultimately had to ask myself is how much of this stuff did I believe on some level? How did my actions, thoughts, biases, and words align with what I thought I believed?

Agreed on this. It's one of the reasons I started a thread on the idea about whether transman who transition are self-misogynistic. I know in some way I am in that I dislike my personal woman bits but that's my dysphoria/GID speaking rather than a hatred of women. Like you, I had to question whether there was more to it than just that. I refuse to be like cis-men and do not want to be compared to them. I am my own man and so much more than that.

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

Let me understand this cause I am NOT out to hurt anyone's feelings or cast aspersions....<walking on eggshells is SO much fun>....

Thing is, I don't believe we need to walk on egg shells. I've said it already and I'll say it again. Because this thread was "born" out of another discussion that was already hugely heated it's being watched like a hawk more so. In fact, IMO, there is a higher expectation on transmen than others because of what some would believe our experience to be (never mind that we all have very differing backgrounds from that of a living a straight female life to those living lesbian and those living femme).

It's unfortunate that transmen do face some of this kind of discrimination or animosity from other parts of the LGBTQ community (gay transmen that I know have commented how the gay community doesn't quite accept them either and neither do the straight men they may have dated in the past). But I'd like to believe that in this community of people the majority are supportive (we have over 4,000 and I've probably interacted with about 600 of that so I can't comment either way for the remaining but I'd like to believe they are just as supportive).

So rather than dwell on those who won't support us or what out right hate us, I'd rather hang out and get to know those will support us and like us. Will we ever be able to stop anyone from not liking us because we're transmen? No. There will always be those that dislike us because of who are. But I always try to make sure that it's not because of what I personally do or say (that doesn't mean toeing some line or walking on eggshells -- it just means being aware of the fact that there is more to the world than just me).


To that end, one of my biggest challenges is being seen as a man and not in the same light as a cis-gendered man. I likely don't have the same experience in my life as many cis-gendered men do. And the way people treated me in my female life before effected that experience. I often wonder how different I would be had I started my transition when I was in my 20s compared to doing it now in my early 40s. Already I feel like I've lived two lives, almost like a reincarnation (maybe that's what is meant by reincarnation).

[ruffryder]

Originally Posted by Linus

...

And there is one thing I was curious about because I've seen this from both sides: I know there are many femmes who are interested/intrigued/turned on by FTMs and many FTMs who are reciprocal to this (myself included). What I'm curious about are those FTMs who are here in this community (and others like it) and interested in straight-women as opposed to femmes in this community (and others like it)?

I am not interested in straight women as opposed to femmes. I see women as women, no matter how they may identify. Some femmes feel invisibility about their identity and "pass" as straight where some FTM may "pass" as straight males also. For me and I guess what I'm trying to say is woman is woman and man is man for sake of the two genders. Of course there are lots of other gender identities and some FTM may not even ID as male but instead transgender, third gender, FTM, etc.. If one is FTM I'm gonna view him as male, just my opinion - "Female to Male" unless he lets me know otherwise.

Anyway, as far as women go (straight or femme) if she has an interest in me and who I am then I'm interested in her and like I've said it's "women" I'm interested in and not how they may identify. I've dated women all across the spectrum from queer, femme, bi, straight, dyke, lesbian. As long as they get me and understand where I'm coming from I have no issues dating any woman across the spectrum (well not now because I'm happily in a relationship ) Do femme women understand FTM better than a straight woman? Maybe, but not in my experience. It all depends how they view the FTM and if you general have decided to share that part of you. We can't assume everyone including our own community knows what an FTM is.

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

I get what you're saying. All of our friends are straight as well. Comes with territory of area we live in but also the gay folks that do live near there really won't have anything to do with us because of the whole FTM/femme status. I guess they think we're "traitors" to our own kind? Lol. Whatever their deal is, we don't worry about it and actually love our straight friends. Only one of them (Julie's best friend) really gets it I think. The rest just kinda get that glazed over look in their eyes then pretend they never heard any of it. Go figure.

I was born and lived in a small midwestern community, one of the states where Brandon Teena was killed for being a transgender. A lot of my friends were and are straight also. I dated a straight woman for 3 years and we lived together as a couple. Our friends understood us and knew me as the male counterpart in the relationship. They had no issues with it whatsoever. I appreciated their willingness to learn about FTM and their acceptance and it made me happy that if they messed up on a pronoun they were quick to fix that. They saw me as just another guy. Thankfully, I have not run into people that are hateful about it or dont' agree with it. I'm more scared of this happening here in the good ol south of FL. I share my life of an FTM with people that are close to me, employers, some coworkers and others that I trust and want close in my life.

I've ran into femmes that aren't sure about FTMs and how they identify. They have made mistakes calling me her, she, girl.. and It blew me away.. I somehow get more upset when this happens in our own community then if a straight identifying person would mess that up. Has anyone ran into that also? and
another question to you all is, do you think femme women understand FTM better than a straight woman or vice versa? What are your experiences with this?

and.. another question yet, Who do you share that you are an FTM with and do you explain it or do you just let others assume you are butch, lesbian or a straight male or however they may view or perceive you?

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

and.. another question yet, Who do you share that you are an FTM with and do you explain it or do you just let others assume you are butch, lesbian or a straight male or however they may view or perceive you?

I don't tell anyone usually. I had to tell my back doctor, who was sitting and looking at my MRI (which clearly showed my hoo-ha) -he was trying to tell me that some of my symptoms might be my prostate.

I didn't move, I kept the same job during transition, my kids started out with two moms in the same school system - so people know. It's just been so long I'm not sure who knows and who doesn't. The occasions for telling people are practically non-existent. I haven't tried to date anyone I've met, so haven't had to deal with that, and on a few dating sites I say I have transitioned in my profile.

[ruffryder]

Originally Posted by Hominid

I don't tell anyone usually. I had to tell my back doctor, who was sitting and looking at my MRI (which clearly showed my hoo-ha) -he was trying to tell me that some of my symptoms might be my prostate. .

hehe.. this reminded me of the couple times at the airport when I had to go through the tsa body scanner. both times they made me go back through and then they called me sir. I just walked away smiling. (I am pre op)

[Linus]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

hehe.. this reminded me of the couple times at the airport when I had to go through the tsa body scanner. both times they made me go back through and then they called me sir. I just walked away smiling. (I am pre op)

And they probably never comment on your ID (if it still has the other sex identifier on it?).

I have noticed, since post-op (top surgery), that the big body scanners require them to check my right pec. I think there is some weird scar tissue growth or something that some of them detect as an object.

[Tony]

Lovin this thread. I'm keeping up with reading it. Will add when I have more time. Great job! (we really did need this).

[weatherboi]

It is totally not cool to refer to butches as envious when it is only a guess about a group of peoples character. It is divisive at best with an air of insecurity on the part of the accuser. Self inflicted. Qualifiers don't give us a pass to say whatever we want to. If you read back to that post Darbonaire made, he was merely taking a side swiping guess about the envy. Shit stirring verbiage and he even admitted to it. I think he even insinuated that he didn't care. All this stuff is way overkill to describe an experience.

I am all for talking about trans invisibility. I feel a certain responsibility to remain visible within my community and out amoungst the masses. Here in Jacksonville just like everywhere else we are a minority within a minority. I watched the LGB part of our community use gender expression and identity as the bargaining chip to try and gain rights, so they took us out of the original bill under the list of people protected. 2012-296 was the bill and tried to push it forward.
I will never forget the day I read the addendum to the original bill. 2 reasons it felt shitty for me and silencing resulting in my own feelings of invisibility. The first was my clear lack of investment and support for my own rights. Secondly was how very clear to me that a certain aspect of my community that was willing to bargain with my rights because of my lack of involvement and their lack of education when advocating for me as an organization. The attitude was at all costs, some is better than nothing, and that they (HRC) would build on it.

I also experience trans invisibility within my own subculture of trans. I have guys that refer to me as butch because of their own shit. Recently we hosted a small dinner party and one of the transmen that attended kept referring to me as a butch. The dinner requires protocols so I had to navigate a conversation around antiquated beliefs revolved around creating hierarchy within the trans community. It worked for me in that situation. In other situations with less restrictions I tend to grab that kind of thinking and break it down to roadkill. This kind of internal transphobia pisses me off more than any other discriminatory experience I have been privy to. I don't like discourse from within but I am not afraid of confronting it and examining it. IMO it is the first place we should be starting.

Originally Posted by Hominid

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

[ruffryder]

Originally Posted by Linus

And they probably never comment on your ID (if it still has the other sex identifier on it?).

I have noticed, since post-op (top surgery), that the big body scanners require them to check my right pec. I think there is some weird scar tissue growth or something that some of them detect as an object.

Maybe they just like checking pecs. Like I said I'm pre op, no top surgery here yet. That's where they seem to go with me.


They also checked my knee, I'm like what , I have metal in there I didn't know about? lol

Yeah, I think they are not allowed to question identity (male,female, etc) but still don't understand why they say ma'am, sir.. Usually by then though these people at the scan machine haven't seen my ID.