Negotiating Silence

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wish that too. On the other hand sometimes I wish some would change how they see others..

I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

Absolutely they are intertwined! I keep seeing discussion head down an either/or road. Either you see it my way Or you are just wrong. Either/Or never ends well.

You cannot be the teacher without being the student.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

You bring up a most excellent point twisty lime! Silence = Alienation. In reading through this thread I am getting the sense that this a truth for some.

How can we negotiate this is my question? How as individuals can we not alienate each other?

I suppose negotiations could start by not stating that something is WRONG. No one wants to hear that just as much as the person who is trying to convince that their way is the right way. There is no right or wrong way when it comes to other people's feelings - opinions however - are loaded guns.

The key to tolerance and understanding is remembering that if it doesn't suit you - leave it alone. The beauty of a community is knowing that there are others out there who feel and think the way you do (to some degree). It isn't necessary to recruit others to YOUR (the collective) way of thinking.

[Linus]

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me **

[Andrew, Jr.]

Linus,

I can only focus on 1 thing at a time. I can't focus or multi-task on 10 different things. It may seem to others like I may be ignoring them, but I'm not. I just am not able to do it the way others are. That is why I rely on other folks like yourself and Jack to help me to understand.

Andrew

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Linus

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me **

Yes yes, or if we agree with a post, but do not comment on each an every word of everypost, or respond fast enough...are we in fact ignoring the post and silencing the poster?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Linus

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me **

I don't think it's silencing to only respond to one point. That may be the point that speaks to the individual responding. It could happen that way in a real time discussion, too. Are you saying that it may feel invalidating to the original poster, that they don't feel completely "heard"?

I have seen people post comments and when no one responds, they come back on with a pouty kind of tone, "No body likes me, why is everyone ignoring me? I'm not a cool kid" thing. I see it on another site a lot (not a b-f type site). I feel sad when that happens, but I don't think it's silencing to not respond to someone. No one should be obligated to communicate when they have nothing to say.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I don't think it's silencing to only respond to one point. That may be the point that speaks to the individual responding. It could happen that way in a real time discussion, too. Are you saying that it may feel invalidating to the original poster, that they don't feel completely "heard"?

Could be not heard but more that the focus is on some small point and not the overall context or point of the post. I mean, if someone asks a question at the end, I certain would expect responses to be based on the question but if the question is a culmination of an experience and no one reads the experience, then the responses may not necessarily help. It can also be a small specific point that isn't indicative of the whole post and could result in a view being taken out of context. I dunno if I'm being clear. I know I can talk in circles sometimes so if I have I apologize.

I have seen people post comments and when no one responds, they come back on with a pouty kind of tone, "No body likes me, why is everyone ignoring me? I'm not a cool kid" thing. I see it on another site a lot (not a b-f type site). I feel sad when that happens, but I don't think it's silencing to not respond to someone. No one should be obligated to communicate when they have nothing to say.

I've seen that as well. I have posted a few threads which I thought would be great discussions but no one has replied (although I got lots of rep feedback). I just wish some of it would be in the discussion but I suspect sometimes it's too sensitive of an issue to discuss. I won't get pouty over it (although I can if it helps start discussion ). I think when we start a thread we have to remember that it sometimes won't cause everyone to speak, respond, etc. Sometimes it will; sometimes people look at a post and see it as a vent/rant/PoV that they agree with and have nothing more that they could add (this is one of the reasons I thought the "Thanks" button would be good).

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Linus

Could be not heard but more that the focus is on some small point and not the overall context or point of the post. I mean, if someone asks a question at the end, I certain would expect responses to be based on the question but if the question is a culmination of an experience and no one reads the experience, then the responses may not necessarily help. It can also be a small specific point that isn't indicative of the whole post and could result in a view being taken out of context. I dunno if I'm being clear. I know I can talk in circles sometimes so if I have I apologize.



I've seen that as well. I have posted a few threads which I thought would be great discussions but no one has replied (although I got lots of rep feedback). I just wish some of it would be in the discussion but I suspect sometimes it's too sensitive of an issue to discuss. I won't get pouty over it (although I can if it helps start discussion ). I think when we start a thread we have to remember that it sometimes won't cause everyone to speak, respond, etc. Sometimes it will; sometimes people look at a post and see it as a vent/rant/PoV that they agree with and have nothing more that they could add (this is one of the reasons I thought the "Thanks" button would be good).

Yes, the "thanks" button is great in many regards!

[apretty]

i think that silencing can only exist if there's some power imbalance. (and not a perceived imbalance, a true power imbalance.)

the other so-called silencing, isn't. what i hear being described is when someone feels 'misheard' or 'misunderstood' and that can be frustrating (or not) but it's really between you and you (or myself and i) and i'm sure it *feels* really real, but it's not a certain *thing* that's being done to you (or me) unless you happen to think that it is (and again, that's between you and you).

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Linus

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me **

Are you speaking to the fact that I didn't answer you point by point?
Am I being silencing by not doing so? Or are you being silencing by expecting me to?

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.

[Words]

The only thing that always, or nearly always, silences me - because I'm simply unable to understand - is language that for me, is too 'academic'. Why does it silence me? Because I'm afraid of looking stupid by asking, ''What, exactly, do you mean?'' There, I owned it.

I do believe that in some cases - note, I said some - some folks will use their superior language skills/intelligence/education/whatever as a way of silencing others. I have seen it happen - not here, but on other sites, one in particular - and it disgusts me because it implies, to me, a total lack of respect for others and their abilities, or lack thereof. And please don't tell me I'm imagining this, because I'm not. It happens, it's disgusting, and to me, it's no different to laughing behind the back of someone with a physical or mental disability.

I also believe, however, that some folks simply do not realize that the average person on the street is not capable of understanding the type of language they use. So although what they write might be silencing, they are not, in my opinion, and in contrast to those mentioned in the paragraph above - guilty of deliberately silencing others.

Apart from that? There's not much that will silence me or cause me to be silent. As many, I'm sure, will confirm

Words

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Ok but this kind of example is an orange, not an apple. I am talking about when people who are not transguys or male ID'd talk about male ID'd people and lump them into one group and say that they dominate the space, etc. I read that and think to myself, gee, that may be true of some guys, but I know that isn't me. So that's not fair. I have seen this in more than one thread on this site, and I have seen other things like it said too. I understand that some guys are stupid and don't see other people and consider them. I understand that some guys are misogynist pigs. I see that behavior and cringe. I try to call it out when I do see it. Please, don't lump me in with those guys. It's fine to say that 'some men do such and such, and I have this experience with some men', but don't say men do this and men do that... I feel invisible when people do that. And then to say, this is a women-only discussion and your coming in here and getting defensive is just an example of you silencing us and dominating our space, etc., well that is silencing too.


I totally get that women, butch or femme, deserve to have their own space to discuss their common experiences and ideas. I respect that and I read those threads as a means of educating myself so that I can be more sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. I generally don't post there, cause that's not my place. The only thing that upsets me is when I read things people say about us transguys. Again, some transguys may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

Agreed!
I have found that people are people. Dumb and stupid to not belong to any one group. Character traits exist across all groups. I have found on threads that are "only _______" space others enter at will. MY all time fav was a newly created butch space that some femmes tried to paint pink.

Quote: Again, some transguys(lesbians, butches, femmes, women, men, children, grownups, governments, straights, poor people, rich people, right wing people, left wing people) may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

Life is just so much easier when you base your opinions about someone on the content of their character rather than how they id, their race, religion etc. Of course this requires more work.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Linus

Could be not heard but more that the focus is on some small point and not the overall context or point of the post. I mean, if someone asks a question at the end, I certain would expect responses to be based on the question but if the question is a culmination of an experience and no one reads the experience, then the responses may not necessarily help. It can also be a small specific point that isn't indicative of the whole post and could result in a view being taken out of context. I dunno if I'm being clear. I know I can talk in circles sometimes so if I have I apologize.

No apologies necessary to me. I do find it odd when there is a response that isn't really pertinent to the post or discussion. It feels like the response is not based on an attempt to understand, but just a platform for the responder to air their views. It can range from annoying to appearing to be callous, depending on the situation. But, really, it may just be that the post wasn't completely understood by the responder. I know that sometimes people honestly believe they understand, when they don't.

I've seen that as well. I have posted a few threads which I thought would be great discussions but no one has replied (although I got lots of rep feedback). I just wish some of it would be in the discussion but I suspect sometimes it's too sensitive of an issue to discuss. I won't get pouty over it (although I can if it helps start discussion ). I think when we start a thread we have to remember that it sometimes won't cause everyone to speak, respond, etc. Sometimes it will; sometimes people look at a post and see it as a vent/rant/PoV that they agree with and have nothing more that they could add (this is one of the reasons I thought the "Thanks" button would be good).

I like the thanks button, too. Thanks for having it!

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Are you speaking to the fact that I didn't answer you point by point?
Am I being silencing by not doing so? Or are you being silencing by expecting me to?

Heh.. no. It's because I didn't respond to all your points in the OP and also didn't address others completely either. Hence, the irony. I think, however, you've done a great job at trying to answer and address points as they come into play. Which, IMO, everyone feel like they have a part in this, are valued for their opinion and are not silenced.

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Totally understand and completely get. This is much like me not understanding what it's like to live with being differently abled and others not being aware of the challenges that are added on with that, especially one that doesn't necessarily appear obvious.

Please be assured it wasn't directed at you but rather something that I remember from a previous discussion on a similar topic on an online game (since the premise of the game involved online discussion and politics, silencing was a common activity although it wasn't called silencing) and I've seen elsewhere online. One of the things I've noticed is that when this is done, sometimes two people -- both who have the same view but present it differently -- ended up arguing against each other over the smallest point (e.g., honor vs honour).

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.

Always a good thing.

[SuperFemme]

Ok. Now I'd like to add something else to the mix.

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.

Apretty spoke of a true imbalance of power. I think there is an imbalance of power in these kinds of situations. The most painful thing for me has been seeing a person in authority (or perceived authority) rip a member in public. For speaking a truth. For having a dissenting opinion. It sets an ugly stage.

[Diva]

Great thread, SF....it brings out some provocative thinking to be sure....

I don't often feel silenced. I understand, Words, what You are saying by the academic verbiage.....sometimes, it gets to be too much for me personally. But I don't feel silenced just because a poster might use a few bigger/more complicated/lofty words. I just have my dictionary close~by. A week doesn't go by that I don't learn a few new words! I may not have a clue what they meant, but by God, I've got a new WORD!

Now when I'm looking up every other word, I just go 'what is the point'? lol I may not SAY anything, but I don't feel silenced. I think that would be on me if I felt that way. You can't dismiss or silence me unless I give You persmission.

Someone mentioned the 'addressing every single post' or 'every point in a post'....and if someone ~ say someone whose comments we respect and admire ~ doesn't address it, doesn't mean they are trying to silence someone else. Maybe they didn't see it. Maybe it didn't speak to them at the moment they read it. And if we DID address each point, we'd wear out that "Multiple Quote Feature"!!!

This is a crazy deal, this on~line discussion stuff. It's hard to read tone, unless You might know the one posting and can hear their inflection. We don't always have that luxury.

I hope that made sense......thanks again, SF.....

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I suppose negotiations could start by not stating that something is WRONG. No one wants to hear that just as much as the person who is trying to convince that their way is the right way. There is no right or wrong way when it comes to other people's feelings - opinions however - are loaded guns.

The key to tolerance and understanding is remembering that if it doesn't suit you - leave it alone. The beauty of a community is knowing that there are others out there who feel and think the way you do (to some degree). It isn't necessary to recruit others to YOUR (the collective) way of thinking.

My name is adele and I am so NOT here to recruit you! (sorry, couldn't resist)

This is a great post! I wonder if people equate everyone not agreeing with them to not being heard? Then it all goes to hell in a handbasket. The thing is, on the other side of the coin that is not being heard is not listening. Listening means extracting ones POV and being open IMO.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apretty

i think that silencing can only exist if there's some power imbalance. (and not a perceived imbalance, a true power imbalance.)

the other so-called silencing, isn't. what i hear being described is when someone feels 'misheard' or 'misunderstood' and that can be frustrating (or not) but it's really between you and you (or myself and i) and i'm sure it *feels* really real, but it's not a certain *thing* that's being done to you (or me) unless you happen to think that it is (and again, that's between you and you).

Ding! Ding! Ding! You are in my head. I see the word silencing being used a lot. I am still trying to understand if Silencing is indeed a two party act a lot of the time.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.

Apretty spoke of a true imbalance of power. I think there is an imbalance of power in these kinds of situations. The most painful thing for me has been seeing a person in authority (or perceived authority) rip a member in public. For speaking a truth. For having a dissenting opinion. It sets an ugly stage.

I think Silencing is a form of shunning/ostracizing. We will not all get along. That's a fact, Jack. But we can behave in socially acceptable ways towards one another.

However, then we have to determine what is "socially acceptable."

In some groups, it is socially acceptable to send PM's or talk about someone behind their back.

I've done this to you, SuperFemme. I am using this example because you and I discussed this. We repaired what I allowed to happen by listening to and by perpetuating some rather unpleasant gossip. It is one of the reasons I try my best not to say anything behind someone's back that I would not say to their face. It's an important thing in my life.

I have been silenced by others telling me that my way of communicating in written form is demeaning or belittling. I do have a dogmatic way of communicating. I do not like that I have hurt people unintentionally. However, I know for a fact that I have hurt people intentionally. Not proud of that but I will also not allow anyone to use that as a weapon to silence me.

I've set up some pretty firm boundaries about avoiding those who do gossip in mean ways. I have to quantify that with "in mean ways" because if gossip is talking about someone, then I gossip a lot. I talk about Pixiestars and how much I enjoy her company. I mention Shariberry's shopping abilities. I am a horrible gossip about Ashton's tour guide skills. Or tell someone that they must buy Diva's CD because it is most excellent. Or read any of the 9Word poets' work. ETC.

If gossip is mean-spirited, then I will self-correct myself. I will say out loud that I do not want to talk about someone behind their back and correct that behaviour. If I do not want to be around gossips, I can't be one, right? And Gods know, I've been one!

I do see gossip as Silencing. And again, I am sorry for what I did to you rather than go directly to you.