For the Love of Intentions!!

[Girl_On_Fire]

Wasn't able to quote directly from weatherboi so I'll just copy and paste:

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

I don't like the sentence, "plays the innocent uneducated community member". I think this makes too much of a judgement on the part of the "general you". I agree there are plenty of people out there who like to start stuff just to start stuff. For no other reason than to pull the pin on a grenade and watch the chaos. I'm also sure there are plenty of other people (like myself) who genuinely don't realize when they're being offensive in a post due to lack of education, misunderstanding, etc. The sentence implies that everyone knows better and I think this is one of the primary reasons for the jumping of the gun that goes on in some of these threads.

For people like me (and I'm not the only one, I've seen it on other posts I didn't start) it can be like being sucker-punched in the stomach to see a vehement response filled with exclamation marks and accusations and all-caps.

That could send a young, naive, uneducated, socially-clueless, and/or what-have-you person running for the hills right away with no dialogue actually having transpired. Trust me when I tell you from years of experience, this is incredibly damaging and confusing.

Again, not everybody is genuinely clueless. However, in my line of thinking, unless the thread topic starts with something like, "I Think all Queer People Should Die" it would help to take a deep breath and ask a few questions of the person before taking out the verbal hatchet.

Think of it this way, if somebody really is trying to start something, they'll get bored pretty quickly by benign responses and questions and escalate immediately. Then you'll know how it was meant and will be able to respond accordingly.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

It is funny because I don't see it as a person getting on a soapbox when they are trying to communicate to someone about a written offense. For me, when a person comes into a space and pontificates or even insinuates something offensive I see them as the person standing on the soapbox and being judgemental. It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled". I happen to be one of those people that has been accused of that and I can say that it is an unfair It doesn't warrant bullying inside this venue or outside this venue.


For me the camel, straw, back breaking moment is going to be that one time I decide not to call out someone's ism and it goes totally ignored by my other community members, or better yet thanked by fellow community members. I deal with all that yucky stuff in my life at work and my recreational time when out and about. I am pretty direct in most situations even when I am dealing with a client. I am direct here and am not a person that is going to lighten that up in my words because that is not me. Honestly, I feel pretty unwelcome here for reasons that exist outside this venue.


I generally don't want to think people have bad intentions behind the things they talk about. I also don't think people reacting to it have bad intentions either. I also realize how much work our community needs to do surrounding all the ism's and continue to have that fact reinforced everyday. Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative.

All this post resonates with me but I highlighted the specific areas that really touched me. When someone comes into a forum and posts something racist, sexist, classist, misogynistic, or in some way blatantly offensive they may not be doing it to stir up shit or for any nefarious reason other than that is how they really feel. They may not be aware that they are being offensive. I don't think that changes the fact that they actually are being offensive. It always feels unfair to me that a person has to read those offensive words, feel all the yucky ways that stuff makes one feel, make a decision not to take the easy road and remain silent but to speak out, point out the problem explaining why it is offensive and then be attacked and labeled as someone who is always making a big deal out of stuff. To quote weatherboi "It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled"."

I think it is important to ask people to be responsible for their words. It's not fair to say things and then when someone asks you to be accountable for what you are saying and to look at the implications of your words that you accuse them of attacking you or pummeling you.

I think it is just as important to call out this stuff in one's online community as it is to call it out in the real world. I would never allow someone to throw racist, sexist, classist etc comments around me unchallenged in my everyday life, why should I allow it in my online community.

Again to quote Weatherboi "Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative."

Asking people to be accountable is like taking a stroll through a minefield. I certainly wouldn't do it if I didn't believe in my heart that it is the right thing to do. I don't know why people feel like being asked to look at the things they are saying is such a terrible thing. Or why they think it is a judgment against them as a person. Maybe that is something we should examine. Everybody says something that is offensive to someone at some point. We all have blind spots. That's what other people can do for you. They can show you where you are failing to see something clearly or where you are failing to take into account the way your words can effect others, the way you can be unclear on the implications of what you are saying. That's not a bad thing. It can facilitate personal growth. I don't know why someone who helps facilitate the opportunity for growth is seen in such a negative light. I am grateful for each and every person who has helped me grow. I'm not saying growth isn't painful but it's the growth that is causing the pain not the person trying to illuminate a blind spot.

[Nic]

Still figuring out how to quote things and not much time.

As a new member of the community I've spent a fair amount of time reading rather than posting. Reading some of the hot topic left me with the feeling that some of the more experienced folks occasionally get tired of being the sign posts for enlightenment.

"Do the work" is a great phrase. Makes sense to ask people to be accountable, naive or not. In a defensive frame of mind (everyone has it from time to time) it might sound like an accusation rather than a request or suggestion.

Privilege is my trigger. I'm an ass about it. I try to be gentle about naivete but I can come on like a 2 x 4 swinging a 4 x 6 when people are being malicious. Don't mind it either. Keeps me warm at night. Also recognize that I have privilege of my own. Takes an awake head to be in both spaces at once. Who wants to be a hypocrite?

In situations where I'm the old hand who's tired of hearing the same tired argument, -ism, whatever, I leave the enlightenment debate to people with more patience. I don't need to be the sign post everyday. Some days I can just be a post. No signs.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!

Being piled on... It happened to me in a red zone topic. i was not taken to task but SO many people spoke out in opposition of my standpoint. i stopped posting and started listening. i kept thinking, how can so many people be wrong? Then i realized, Holy Heck its me who has it wrong!

Then i was driving to work and a light bulb went off. i had to unwire and rewire my thought process around the subject and i did, and i felt good about it. Seeing things from others' perspective is not as easy as it sounds. i was completely humbled by it all.

i was SO glad for that experience, i still am.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

Being piled on... It happened to me in a red zone topic. i was not taken to task but SO many people spoke out in opposition of my standpoint. i stopped posting and started listening. i kept thinking, how can so many people be wrong? Then i realized, Holy Heck its me who has it wrong!

Then i was driving to work and a light bulb went off. i had to unwire and rewire my thought process around the subject and i did, and i felt good about it. Seeing things from others' perspective is not as easy as it sounds. i was completely humbled by it all.

i was SO glad for that experience, i still am.

Yeah that has happened to me a lot! Just recently in the Miley Cyrus thread and talking about appropriation. That is why I come here!

Sometimes people are nice about it and sometimes they are not. I am ok with that.

Miss Tick mentioned that sometimes the naive question can be hurtful. Not intentionally so but hurtful nonetheless. There are no stupid questions but there are stupid places to ask them. I was told quite clearly that my white person musings were hurtful and that it would be best to take those up with other white people or read some Tim Wise. In other words...do the work! So my intentions really did not mean much in this situation.

I don't hold anyone responsible for my learning or my feelings and social interaction. That is on me. While it is admirable to try and be kind and patient always towards all it is not realistic. If you ask a question you have to be prepared for the answer. Or for someone not wanting to answer.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

If you ask a question you have to be prepared for the answer. Or for someone not wanting to answer.

Exactly.

If someone, whether brand spanking new or well-seasoned, asks a question or brings up a topic, they need to be well aware that they have no control over the responses received and they need to be prepared to accept what follows.

They might not agree with how the discussion flows or with other viewpoints, but if you open a door, you have to expect daylight to come in. Otherwise, you are living in the dark ages.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

Wasn't able to quote directly from weatherboi so I'll just copy and paste:

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

I don't like the sentence, "plays the innocent uneducated community member". I think this makes too much of a judgement on the part of the "general you". I agree there are plenty of people out there who like to start stuff just to start stuff. For no other reason than to pull the pin on a grenade and watch the chaos. I'm also sure there are plenty of other people (like myself) who genuinely don't realize when they're being offensive in a post due to lack of education, misunderstanding, etc. The sentence implies that everyone knows better and I think this is one of the primary reasons for the jumping of the gun that goes on in some of these threads.

I am not implying that all people know better. I have seen some community members here string along many people in the community including myself. One especially comes to mind, she claimed to be a physics student and professional football player. She was new and everybody tip toed around all her nonsense for quite some time until it was revealed she was just here to create chaos.


For people like me (and I'm not the only one, I've seen it on other posts I didn't start) it can be like being sucker-punched in the stomach to see a vehement response filled with exclamation marks and accusations and all-caps.

Understood, I can see where perceived harshness could feel yucky to you if that is your reaction. I don't take exclamation points or ALL CAPS as symbolizing a vehement response. Accusations are different, because that requires being able to defend written thoughts that are either being misunderstood or not. I think when we start threads we need to be prepared for anything because there are many members here that participate and not all people participate the same.

That could send a young, naive, uneducated, socially-clueless, and/or what-have-you person running for the hills right away with no dialogue actually having transpired. Trust me when I tell you from years of experience, this is incredibly damaging and confusing.

Well, we all have things that come up and send us running. We all have things in life that can be damaging and confusing. I have trained myself to stay out of those arenas when I am not prepared to handle the heated debate or the feedback. Nobody but ourselves can police what is good for us and what isn't. We can't expect total strangers to change themselves in this venue if they are playing by the rules and following the TOS.

Again, not everybody is genuinely clueless. However, in my line of thinking, unless the thread topic starts with something like, "I Think all Queer People Should Die" it would help to take a deep breath and ask a few questions of the person before taking out the verbal hatchet.

Think of it this way, if somebody really is trying to start something, they'll get bored pretty quickly by benign responses and questions and escalate immediately. Then you'll know how it was meant and will be able to respond accordingly.

This is not my experience. Usually for me, the benign approach escalates because the person is not receiving the kind of attention they were seeking. I have seen it happen in a thread and I have seen it happen to someone that gets singled out by a person. You can treat them benignly, nonchalantly, call them out or any number of ways to try and handle it gently, but if the person is set on getting the community or one community members attention it can turn ugly if they are doing so by crossing boundaries. Understand I do not have you in mind when I am talking about people doing this.

I am not really comfortable expecting members to post a certain way if they aren't breaking any TOS rules. I can only control what I post. I am comfortable if a community member requests something from me, I have no problem trying to accommodate them to the best of my ability if it is a reasonable request.

[Medusa]

I've mentioned this a couple of times in other discussions in the past but I feel like it's a good add-on to this discussion.

I got dog-piled 13 years ago on the Dash site and have never forgotten it! LOL

I was in my early 20s and was fairly new to the Butch/Femme dynamic (or at least naming it that, I had always dated masculine women....except for that one girl, and that's a different thread!). Anyway, I found a thread on the Dash site and there was some heated debate going on with more seasoned folks about whether or not Trans men belonged in Butch/Femme space.

YES, that discussions actually happened. YES, people were pissed.

Anyway, I was trying to wade through the cyber-slaps to see what people were actually saying and got so frustrated with the constant negativity and personal jabs that I made some foolish comment like, "Good God, we're all women here! Can't we just get along?"

I was immediately handed my ass by Toughy, Heart, and a couple of other folks!

Oh, I pouted my ass off and was mad as hell!!! How dare these people try to school me on anything! Who were they after all to talk to me like I was stupid!!

Looking back, they weren't rude to me at all. They were, however, very direct (and one of the group was pretty aggressive) and informed me that No, not ALL folks on the site were women and that I needed to think about my remarks and how it erased folks.

And I sat back and was all, "WTF do you mean we aren't all women???? Do we have vaginas or not??"

And then commence my education on how sex organs do not equal gender!
And then commence my education on how Trans men are part of the continuum of gender that I needed to learn about!
And then commence me being really, really reticent to get involved in any heavy discussions for a good long while.

Having your ass handed to you by folks out in the wide open is often not very fun and can even feel humiliating. Thing is, that's just ego talking!
I took that experience and learned from it and consider both Toughy and Heart not only my friends but my elders (in the respect that they were way more knowledgeable about gender and identity than I ever dreamed to be!)

Folks have a choice with how they digest information. They can get really defensive and butthurt and sull up or they can consider the information to see if they think it has any merit. And this isn't saying that everyone who calls you out on something is worthy of listening to, because let's face it, some folks are full of fucking shit and can't examine their own shit much less someone else's.

But if several folks are saying it? It's worth a listen!

There is a line where you can still listen to what folks have to say, respect it as best you can, but not accept it or digest it.
Good example for me is folks who are a certain slant of political party. I might think that folks who wanted Sarah Palin or Donald Trump for President are complete and utter idiots but I'll give them a listen to see why they feel that way. Because not all of them are idiots. Some of them are racists and some of them are sexist assholes and still further, some of them havent done any research at all on what Sarah Palin stands for but think that having a woman anything in political office is a grand thing.

It's always tough to see people defending their right to be racist or sizist. And even harder still when the folks defending their racism try to paint the folks calling them out as "bullies" or a "gang". I think about how much energy it takes to be defensive versus how much energy it takes to just listen.

[Girl_On_Fire]

I think it all boils down to how you respond, not what you say. If someone says something that is offensive to you, calling them out on it and pointing out how it could be offensive could actually be very beneficial to the poster. It's when someone reacts as though the information is "already known" that gets under my skin like so much sand in my bathing suit. And this is whether it's directed at me or not. I'm an underdog so I'm a fighter for the underdog.

Then again, I'd make a lousy lawyer because I truly believe people are simply making simple social errors when they post "cringe-worthy" threads or responses to threads. I want to take them aside and gently tell them they have their social skirt tucked into their pantyhose. I can't let anyone walk around with egg on their face. I can only think back to the times before I discovered I had Asperger's and would walk around with my foot permanently crammed into my mouth and had no earthly clue why I was losing friends, jobs, etc. right and left.

If only, I've said for years, if ONLY someone had taken me aside and explained what I was doing wrong. If only someone had seen my intentions instead of my behavior.

I think this life experience has given me a unique experience and a particular sensitivity when I believe anyone else's intentions might be being misunderstood.

The entire reason for this post was to make a suggestion to the general you to, the next time you see a post that makes you want to fire with both barrels, stop and put yourself in the other person's shoes for a moment before responding. At least on a public forum, you can do that. If someone says something insulting in front of you, it's much harder to control your reaction.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think, for me, because I'm a long time poster in a few forums and I read and contribute a lot of comments in news stories and unfortunately read too many you tube (I finally stopped reading you tube ones) that when we have gone in to explain with patience or with kindness even though MY feelings were hurt (offense is the feeling of hurt combined with anger) I and many others have been bitten many, many, many times. That's why there are moderators. If it was just a matter of being polite to people who hurt us, then we wouldn't need banning or time outs or terms or service.
And really I'm pretty fed up with people on internet forums being assholes. I'm going to say most of the time they don't have a neurodiverse way of looking at things. Mostly I seem people just being ignorant, willful, rude dickheads who want to be right.

I have seen massive clashes over difference of how to speak and joke. When Americans first come to an English board I always wince. Because they start with "why are y'all so mean and rude to each other..." And then the piss taking begins. And they don't understand that the way you deal with upset is a firm clip followed by a joke. If you take the piss out of someone the best response is to take the piss out of yourself. For example, I made a post about how upset I was about sexual harassment being a daily thing in my life and it affecting how I choose to dress every day.
One of the more trollish of the regulars said "yeah Babs, poor you. It must be so hard that everyone wants to fuck you so much. You do go on a good deal about how everyone, men, women and children want you. That must be difficult."
My response? "Oh it is, truly. But its the farm animals that bother me the most."

And that is generally how people deal with stuff. You make a joke and the other person looks like a tosser. You turn and say something earnest about your feelings and its a HUGE invite for people to see you can't take a swipe and roll with it. And you becoome a target.

Here everyone watches their language, tries to accommodate and discuss. The English humour doesn't translate to here and people get very offended.

So its the person in the minority that generally has to learn. It is really, really hard to learn the right way to do things when you have been brought up for x years to do them differently. It took me FIVE years to get a grip on English culture and how to not offend everyone, everyday. And ever after 10 years I still did because I still had to translate a lot of reactions and double guess. It did not come naturally to me. It was exhausting most of the time around certain things. I hung out with Australians and Scottish to get a break. That said northern English were a bit easier for me. Bit more blunt and blabby.

But when I came home?? Holy shit I realise how much I've been enculturated!! Everyone is soooooooooooo serious and walks on egg shells and is sooooo careful about not offending people that there is a kind of "spirit" and banter and ability to truly laugh at yourself (and you mates for being twats) and just let bullshit wash off your back that is lost and I really miss. Badly.

And again, I am offending people. And yes it totally costs me potential friendships. Like it did when I moved away 16 years ago. Like it did when I moved to work in central america.

But I am the one that has to learn. As much as I want everyone else to change. And sincerely?? I really do think everyone where I am is up their own arse and needs to learn to take a fucking joke (piss take: where you tease someone with sarcasm and black humour about something sensitive in order to make them laugh at what could be depressing)and laugh at themselves and quit being so afraid of offending people.

All this pussyfooting means people give lip service to crap in order not to offend instead of actually accepting. I dunno I tend to be of the view if you are comfortable and accepting of something you can piss take. If you are scared of being offensive and looking like a bigot....

I am not a gentle person. Nor do I expect people do be gentle with me. I can take shit on the chin and suck it up most of the time. Because I've had to learn to. That doesn't make me unempathetic. There are many times I've taken people aside on boards (especially people who aren't north american/English) after they've had a good beat down and had a bit of a pep talk.

But I have had my ass handed to me by people on boards many, many times. And often with them wearing a big fuck off rubber boot to make sure I ate my words. I don't think anyone owes it to me to be gentle if I hurt them. Hey asshat you are on my foot/oops! Sorry me and my happy clown feet trying to get overly friendly! Sorry!
I stepped on someones foot, its my error. So its my apology. And I've apologized a LOT.

I don't know what peoples intentions are, but on the net? Its pretty safe to say that someone saying something in a way people find sickish to the local custom, will get served.

But there will be people that IM them and tell them "hey, look, here, it might be an idea if..."

That doesn't happen on board because... Ugh we are queers and we have to fucking discuss everything to death and besides some of the advice about the dynamics here even with my iron balls I wouldn't say on the board in public because I'm not fond of.getting my ass kicked my admin. Which they would have to do to keep the peace.

I dunno if that is of any help, but its often helpful to know that its not you, it that other people are upset and hurt. Asking them to treat someone who hurt them better than they feel they think/believe they have been treated is probably a bit much to ask of humans, but I understand you asking. Unfortunately for me, I find that because I'm the one that's asking in the wrong way and upsetting people (and this happens fairly often...) That I have to sit down and figure out another way to ask the next few people. I've already buggered the last ones there is no way I'm going to salvage those so, onwards and upwards.

Often I have to sit down and vent, complain, brain storm with someone.

I am waaaaaaay to direct sexually and freak the hell out of people. Especially butches. Jesus wept I can't tell you the mountain of offense I've caused cause get too lazy to be be coy. And come in from the side. And let someone else lead. Which sucks because I'm mostly a submissive so the ones that like me think I'm going to kick their ass all.over the block in bitch boots and wow are they ever disapointed. I'm an aggressive cunt, I know. But to someone I'm willing to turn that over to cause I think they can handle it? Big deal.

But even my exes have told to take it down a notch. So I have to often rethink my approach after I've burned six dozen chances behind me.

It sucks but its kinda my issue. I wish to fuck everyone else would cut me some slack but... I'm 44. I know that's not how life is cut.

But its good to speak up and who knows maybe a couple of people might be more up for IMing someone after a dog pile to soothe and explain. I hope so.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Holy fuckin epic post! I'm on my phone so I can only see like three sentences at a time.

Sorry!!!! I hope anyone's eyeballs bleeding at this point are able to still see something through the haze of the pink fountain my prattling on has caused.

Insomnia. Can't shut up. Probable light me on fire in a bag and I'd talk to you about it....

Oh and scuse the nonsense that's probable in that post. Autocorrect is a bitch.

<<< for bleeding eyeballs everywhere

[imperfect_cupcake]

Are you offering to cauterise the flow with that, sicko?

she called me sicko

[macele]

just because the thread or post is there doesn't mean i have to comment. any thread. any post. my two cents can be silenced. sometimes just letting the ignorance float in cyberspace, ... it will go silent too.

there are those times when it's not for the love of intentions. if i'm not sure, i just go with it. the poster will reveal their intentions. i believe that i should give the benefit of the doubt if possible. but the truth is, ... there are people out to start trouble. play head games. up to no good. and so on.

for those that are innocent. just trying to make friends. be a part of the group. and they are jumped on for not typing their words just so, ... that's just plain ole meanness.

i don't have a catalog of educated words. but i hope that i can use my common sense when communicating, wherever and whenever. i do not want to walk on eggshells. i do not like drama. confusion. if i can't be at ease, i'll not take part. instead of engaging in the drama, so called debate, etc. i'll walk away. but i'm not a bahhck bahhhck chick lol.

one of the good things about communicating with others online is that i can think before i "speak". there's no reason to hurt someones feelings. if the truth hurts, well. but even then, the truth can be spoken kindly. i just don't think there is ever a reason to humiliate. i can ignore or take it to private.

there are times when i should take responsibility for the feelings of others. so i appreciate/thank Girl_On_Fire for the love of intentions.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Daktari

she called me sicko

I'm afraid distance prohibits proper response.

I'm tempted to just post a picture of me flashing my tits instead as a boob form of a v-sign but nipple is not allowed.

Daktari. If I have to go to one more polite event I'm going to open my wrists with an electric razor.

I did meet a nice English girl from Surrey and went drinking with her. She yelled at me from across the bar "Babs ya deaf cunt!!! Come back with crisps!"

I stuck my thumb up signalling I heard her but there was a very shocked and curious look from the other patrons...

Sorry. Back to the subject of polite response.

Nipples maybe against the ToS but they're quite de rigueur in my emails. Come on now, don't be shy!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Daktari

Nipples maybe against the ToS but they're quite de rigueur in my emails. Come on now, don't be shy!

You think I won't, right?

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

You think I won't, right?

Quite the contrary.

Bring.

It.

On.

Biatch!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Daktari

Quite the contrary.

Bring.

It.

On.

Biatch!

Well I guess you changed your email and someone else got a surpise about 30 min ago. Good thing there was no face in that.