What attracts you to Ftms ......

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer

As a native american woman and a two spirited person, I just wanted to share this with you all.

A direct translation of the Ojibwe term, Niizh manidoowag, "two-spirited" or "two-spirit" is usually used to indicate a person whose body simultaneously houses a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit.
We are proud to be two spirited and I honour both my female and male spirit and energy.

This is exactly right and although expressed in many words and cultures we all should strive for this balance on a microcosmic level. How we physically manifest and experience this here and now is our identity for this life time.

IMO there are two spirit 3rd sex people that present an androgynous form and spirit. It seems that, from what I have personally encounter, they are often thought of as transgendered and even thought that would mean "in transition" they clearly are happy where they are and often accept being called "trans". I'm not saying this is right or wrong and obviously everyone has a preference. I don't think its for any of us to judge or try and define. As with anything in life the rules often change to meet needs. We should try and be more flexible, especially when it comes to words.

Most of my life I've dated very masculine butches and those that considered themselves "third sex" their words not mine. I enjoyed and connected with them because I could sense and feel both male and female. When I decided to take it a step further and enter into the FTM world I realized it probably wasn't for me. If he wanted to live as a man yet balanced his masculine and feminine energy rather then get angry and deny I might be more receptive but thus far I have not experienced it.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Most of my life I've dated very masculine butches and those that considered themselves "third sex" their words not mine. I enjoyed and connected with them because I could sense and feel both male and female. When I decided to take it a step further and enter into the FTM world I realized it probably wasn't for me. If he wanted to live as a man yet balanced his masculine and feminine energy rather then get angry and deny I might be more receptive but thus far I have not experienced it.

maybe the guy got angry when you spoke with him about this because you were trying to get him to be who you wanted. maybe he was angry because you had an expectation that was not disclosed to him in the beginning of the rship. maybe you didnt give him a safe space. i don't know. my transition has been private and i like it that way. i still find it hard to talk about certain things about how i feel at a certain time of the month. my monthly reminder that my female body does not match my male mind. my therapy and support group talks about all that. the last thing i wanna deal with is my beloved having an expectation that i am male/female balanced. IMO i am weary of you because of your postings as of late. they could be taken as anti male and then i read this post and feel it is confirmed for me. soooo i am reading this as another post with an underlying transphobic message. the thread is what attracts you to ftms not what doesnt attract you to ftms. so why post something in here negative?? i don't get it??

[Leigh]

I know that there are women out there who won't or cannot, for one reason or another, date an FTM and thats ok but I think that if someone wants to express that they are unable to date an FTM it should be put into another thread not in this one. As an FTM Myself, I don't expect every woman out there to be able to date Me but because this thread is dedicated to those who are attracted to guys like Me I'd appreciate just hearing positive things about what attracts someone to us

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

maybe the guy got angry when you spoke with him about this because you were trying to get him to be who you wanted. maybe he was angry because you had an expectation that was not disclosed to him in the beginning of the rship. maybe you didnt give him a safe space. i don't know. my transition has been private and i like it that way. i still find it hard to talk about certain things about how i feel at a certain time of the month. my monthly reminder that my female body does not match my male mind. my therapy and support group talks about all that. the last thing i wanna deal with is my beloved having an expectation that i am male/female balanced. IMO i am weary of you because of your postings as of late. they could be taken as anti male and then i read this post and feel it is confirmed for me. soooo i am reading this as another post with an underlying transphobic message. the thread is what attracts you to ftms not what doesnt attract you to ftms. so why post something in here negative?? i don't get it??

I'm sorry if I came across that way. It's not my intention. I responded to her post and my perception. You're probably right though in that my experience and opinions have changed. As for my past relationships it wasn't about any of that. Those observations I made later in retrospect. There were other issues. My reference was to two spirits and how it relates to FTM. I simply gave my opinion and honestly stated what I am attracted to and looking for. It wasn't transphobic or anything else.

here we go again...

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.


'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

This was my post....it's post #49. Diva responded to it a bit later on.....post #75. Diva's original post that caused my post was before #49.

And yes........my response was about cultural appropriation.

here is a link for a local two-spirit group http://www.baaits.org/

other two spirit info can be found here:
http://www.nativeout.com/

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Diva

I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

I totally get what you are saying here. My point is/was that unless he identifies as Native American, he is appropriating a Native concept.

I could call myself two-spirit.....it really does fit me.....however it would be appropriation..........even though I was actively involved in BAAITS at one time. I may have some Cherokee blood through my mother's mother's mother's mother, however that does not make me Native American.

[Soft*Silver]

I sit here drinking my morning (afternoon) coffee and am reading this thread.
A few things come to mind that I will share...

TO transition does not mean a simple nip and tuck here and there and wallahhh....someone is the gender they want to be.

One, they already ARE the gender they want to be. The transformation just aligns them up correctly.

Two, transition involve physical, mental, and spiritual alignments. Physical is just one part of it.

Three, anothe huge part of it is social. While the FtM is transitioning, they also must deal with the societal perceptions, which include family and loved ones. And also included members of their affiliations, including this forum.

Four, while they are transitioning, they will bump into people who are evolving. Some more evolved than others. Some evolved in many areas but not in this area.

Five, When words are offered,they will be read in exactly the level of evolution the reader is in, and will also be presented in exactly the level of evolution the writer is in.

Six, these two might not always match up

Seven, when this happens it might feel like a confrontation. Actually, its a unique opportunity to learn. And they will learn regardless of how it is handled.

Eight, what they learn will depend on how sensitively each will handle the other with

Nine, this is a necessary part of transitioning and evolving

Ten, we can all learn from one another. And support one another, with kindness or with flames...both indicate a deep investment in this process


I have learned quite a bit in this thread and I thank all the people who have contributed. I support all of you...wherever you are in your transitioning and evolvement. You have added to my evolution. I come to these sights so that I can connect with my community. And in doing so, I have had to learn to be more sensitive, be more understanding, shut my mouth more often than I was used to, and speak from my place and no one elses.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by softness

I can have incredible sex with CIS men, but the minute they open their mouth to speak, all the glamour and heat goes out the door. It is their socialization at fault. Something is distinctly different in the socialization of the CIS male and the FtM male. Having been put through or surrounded by female socialization efforts, FtMs can reach beneath my skin and touch me where it counts...places CIS men sometimes arent even aware exists.

i realized my earlier participation in this thread was something of a derail and i never actually answer the question that was asked...so my answer is- softness stole my answer lol

i have always been attracted to masculine energy but numb to the attractions of cismales

i came out when i was 19, but attempted to go straight very briefly when i was 23...omg that poor guy...i could not stand for him to behave in any way that was overtly masculine...which i found totally perplexing, b/c with a butch partner i would have found the exact same behaviors totally hot

it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me, but i can't stand for cismales to be masculine AT ALL

therfore FTMs are pretty much a dream come true lol

Originally Posted by softness

I also need to point out that this whole thought of "if I think this way, then I cant think that way" is a really bad teeter totter to be on.

i know but my brain only thinks in dichotomies...professionals are involved

[turasultana]

[QUOTE=dark_crystal;153636]
it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me/QUOTE]

This bit here. Really. Really?

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me, but i can't stand for cismales to be masculine AT ALL

therfore FTMs are pretty much a dream come true lol

i know but my brain only thinks in dichotomies...professionals are involved

Originally Posted by turasultana

This bit here. Really. Really?

I have to agree with turasultana.

If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

While you may have never met a butch you considered masculine enough for you (whatever that means, I didn't realize we were qualifying and quantifying now) doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I've met some very effeminate ftms, and some extremely masculine (including female identified) butches, all exist on a spectrum.

Either way, as a masculine person, I'm not offended by this statement, personally, because I'm extremely comfortable with my own masculinity. I am however, kind of disturbed by it.

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by M. Bent

<snip>

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.

I agree.

And 'not masculine enough'?

I sure hope I'm feminine enough.

[Leigh]

I like hearing about what attracts someone to guys like us, so can we get back to that pls?

For those who have spilled their guts about what they love about an FTM, thank you from this guy for doing so

[Jet]

I am FTM (currently in transition). But something tells me it's going to be hard to find someone who would want to date me.

Just a feeling I have...

[Soft*Silver]

Actually, I have heard some people say they only desire high femmes and the more femme the better. I am not a high femme and I dont take offense when someone says this because they are simply using the limits of the English language to express what they desire in a mate. I am simply a different type of femme and wouldnt even consider myself suitable for the person who only wants a high femme. Am I less a femme? No. I am secure enough in my femmeness not to feel attacked or undervalued.

It is obvious to me that Dark Crystal is stuggling with words to explain what she means. She DOES think in dichotomies, black and white, male female, butch femme...and yet I also see her struggling to get past the dichotomies. She is trying to get to the place where she is inclusive, not exclusive. So, I am not offended by her. I would be if she were being malicious in her intent but she isnt. Thats obvious to everyone. So my approach to her certainly wouldnt be to attack what she says, but to help her learn.

The FtMs I have been involved with have been kind gentlemen. Initially when I first became involved with FtMs, I had alot to learn too. I stumbled with words and yet, they helped me learn. I have been very lucky to have had some great dates. I mattered to them and they took the time to help me explore my dichotomies.

I hope DarkCrystal encounters people just as willing to help her grasp what is past her dichotomies...

[QUOTE=Mister Bent;153668][FONT="Arial"]I have to agree with turasultana.

[FONT="Arial"]If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by softness

Actually, I have heard some people say they only desire high femmes and the more femme the better. I am not a high femme and I dont take offense when someone says this because they are simply using the limits of the English language to express what they desire in a mate. I am simply a different type of femme and wouldnt even consider myself suitable for the person who only wants a high femme. Am I less a femme? No. I am secure enough in my femmeness not to feel attacked or undervalued.

The portion in bold is not parallel to what Dark Crystal said, and fails as a comparison; it's not the same as saying "it's never been possible for ------ femme to be feminine enough for me." We aren't talking about "butchness" (in the way you speak of "femmeness"), but masculinity. Is a "different type of femme" one less feminine than some other type of femme? Is it your assertion that "femmeness" is exactly the same thing as femininity? Is one a high femme because she is more/most feminine - or is there some other defining set of criteria?

I made it clear that I did not take offense, but found the statement to be one of qualification & quantification, which I find to be disturbing. Nor did I say anything about being "attacked" or "undervalued", you're reading something into my post that isn't there, it wasn't so personal for me (as I think I also made clear).

I continue to maintain that we can talk about what attracts us to FTMs using solely positive terms, not comparative ones that are disparaging of other identities.

Originally Posted by softness

It is obvious to me that Dark Crystal is stuggling with words to explain what she means. She DOES think in dichotomies, black and white, male female, butch femme...and yet I also see her struggling to get past the dichotomies. She is trying to get to the place where she is inclusive, not exclusive. So, I am not offended by her. I would be if she were being malicious in her intent but she isnt. Thats obvious to everyone. So my approach to her certainly wouldnt be to attack what she says, but to help her learn.

Again, as I stated in my post, I wasn't offended by her, nor did I think she was being malicious in her intent, so we're in agreement on that. Dark Crystal wasn't "attacked" she was challenged on some words she used. You're right, it was obvious to everyone. There was nothing personal in my post, or any of the others questioning her opinion.

[Ms. Tabitha]

The attraction comes from within. Like a moth to a flame. FTM's carry themselves differently, with a confidence and a pride that I find attractive.
I admire their strength and I definitely appreciate their male energy. The way he presents himself to others, this is not about putting on a show, in fact his behavior should come from within as does his character and attitude.
His mannerisms prove to be most attractive. Someone with self confidence tempered by a sense of humor, combined with intelligent conversational skills. A great attitude without the arrogance. Good manners and respect for his GF/Partner/Wife as an equal. Attentivness, directness and above all honesty. These things are so attractive and stand out over everything for me.

"Courtesy is as much a mark of a gentleman as courage." - Theodore Roosevelt

[dark_crystal]

[quote=turasultana;153648]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me/QUOTE]

This bit here. Really. Really?

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I have to agree with turasultana.

If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

While you may have never met a butch you considered masculine enough for you (whatever that means, I didn't realize we were qualifying and quantifying now) doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I've met some very effeminate ftms, and some extremely masculine (including female identified) butches, all exist on a spectrum.

Either way, as a masculine person, I'm not offended by this statement, personally, because I'm extremely comfortable with my own masculinity. I am however, kind of disturbed by it.

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.

Originally Posted by Chancie

I agree.

And 'not masculine enough'?

I sure hope I'm feminine enough.

because the last two words of my sentence were "for me," i can't imagine how the statement could be seen as me qualifying or quantifying anything in the world besides my own response to my past partners.

I am not talking about identities as concepts and i am not talking about specific individuals and i am not talking about potential individuals that may exist within an identity whom i have not yet met. The sentence was in the past tense and referred only to myself.

i am talking about myself and my past. How can anyone possibly be offended by my experience or my description of my experience? it does not involve anyone except me

[Soft*Silver]

Mr Bent, thank you so much for telling me how wrong I was in the way I interpreted your post and for getting us on the right track again....

[Soft*Silver]

Dear DC.

Your post was fine.

And we move on from here....


Dark Crystal wrote: i am talking about myself and my past. How can anyone possibly be offended by my experience or my description of my experience? it does not involve anyone except me [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER][/QUOTE]

[nycfem]

What doesn't! (i.e. Sometimes it simply feels that everything attracts me to Ftms!!!)

Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread and that's what popped into my head.