Why lipstick lesbians have to keep coming out of the closet

[Quintease]

I don't use the term 'lipstick lesbian' myself, but I thought her point was valid.

[aishah]

i really like this article. thank you for sharing it.

i especially like that she points out the distrust of what we say about ourselves (even after we come out), and the fact that we're held accountable for other people's misconceptions.

[CherylNYC]

"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females. It is a radical and subversive act to continually go through the ritual of beauty in spite of alienation from one group and unwanted attention from another. Being femme will stop being radical once it is seen as valid as being butch is."

I could print this on a t-shirt and wear it every day.

[Miss Scarlett]

i love my femininity/girly-girl side and everything that goes with it...curls, make-up, perfume and all other soft & pretty things. But i also embrace all the non-girly-girl things and make them my own. Femme is my core (just as being a submissive is my core)...so i don't need the accessories to make any sort of transformation...if i'm in grubbies because i've been turning a wrench on something i'm just as Femme as when i'm wearing make-up and something very feminine & pretty. Though i do so love the accessories...lol

At times in the past i felt the need to "explain myself" since i was often mistaken for a straight woman, but i no longer do this...perhaps this comes with age...i don't know. What i do know is that i am who i am...a Femme lesbian who is attracted to Butch lesbians...if the world can't figure that out it's not my problem...it only matters to me and my partner...

[laruss]

I guess you could say I am a 'Femme' but I don't really feel it. I hide well in the hetro world because of my look, but in turn it can be a struggle in the community. I don't look 'gay', whatever that means. Getting a woman to take me seriously when I ask them out has been an issue because they look at me and assume we don't play for the same team.

[Ebon]

My favorite part of this article.


"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females."

[princessbelle]

That is such a great article Quintease!!! Thanks for sharing that.

I appreciate all of it, but this really hit home...

"In some ways my invisibility is preferable. I can safely move throughout the mainstream world untethered to a certain identity, while butch lesbians wear their sexuality on their sleeve. My girlfriend can rarely go into a public bathroom without getting a second, confused glance. That’s hard. But she’s also a smash in specifically gay spaces, she gets to fully embody an identity, and she’d get laid more often than the girl in the skirt we’re unsure about."

So basically in the straight world, most of the time, many of us "femmes" have straight privilege and most butch women do not. I don't get the stares in the bathroom ect. But, it is such a two edged sword. I also don't get the acknowledgement of being gay around my people. It does make it more apparent to them now that i walk with my butch, but it is still questionable to family, i'm sure.

I've writtin about this before but one of my first lesbian parties i went to i was so excited but was treated differently. There was not one single femme there, that i could tell, and i was a total outsider. People would stop talking when i walked up to them and just glare at me.

Back then, i certainly felt like i didn't fit in the straight world or the gay world and that was really difficult and i spent many nights crying about it. I was very much alone in this world.

Being femme is not as easy as it looks. Being femme is hard sometimes. Being femme brings it's own set of problems and issues and difficulties with fitting in.

But. I am now proud of who i am. I could never be anything else if i stay true to myself. And I plan on it.

[Morgan]

I have thought about this topic many times, and would like to share my thoughts. I have talked with many of my friends who unfortunately for reasons unknown to me, have stated that they would not date women who are femme. I do not understand this, but have told them to not judge the women I think are beautiful and who I find very attractive. A femme to me is a powerful woman, she has grace, beauty, class, style, a way of carrying herself which embodies all of the feminine traits. She is something really special, and I admire her for not bending or conforming to society's myth or the gay society's myth of what a lesbian should look like or act like.
I find femme women to be very special and I admire them very much....

[starryeyes]

We are are superheroes.... Crushing stereotypes left and right, causing straighties to take a second glance and scratch their heads when we casually grab our Butches hands while walking in public. We cause them to question themselves and think about their own misconceptions about the Gay community. We fiercely defend our Butches and our community. We educate and answer ridculious questions. We open people's minds. We are amazing. We are powerful Femme sistas, we are strong, and we don't let anyone forget that! Femme Pride!!! :-D

[mariamma]

Thanks for sharing. People do think I'm straight. I like to dance and often attract the attention of men only. There are no gay clubs in Eugene anymore so the lgbt community clubs at queer-friendly establishments. Men are stunned when I don't give out my number because I'm lesbian. Almost all do not know what being femme means. Maybe we can get a femme-visibility movement going?

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by starryeyes

We are are superheroes.... Crushing stereotypes left and right, causing straighties to take a second glance and scratch their heads when we casually grab our Butches hands while walking in public. We cause them to question themselves and think about their own misconceptions about the Gay community. We fiercely defend our Butches and our community. We educate and answer ridculious questions. We open people's minds. We are amazing. We are powerful Femme sistas, we are strong, and we don't let anyone forget that! Femme Pride!!! :-D

Amen & the heck with all of those stereotypes!

i love taking Clay's hand or arm in public and am fiercy proud of hym!

Lifting my glass of sweet tea...Here's to Femme Pride & my beautiful Femme Sisters everywhere!!!

Hmmm...should we design our own Femme Pride flag/banner?

[BullDog]

Thanks for sharing the article Quintease and for all the great responses in this thread. It really bugs me when people talk about how butches/FTMS/trans guys have it so much harder or that femmes have it easy. Femmes have their own issues to face and some that I never encounter.

It is sad but true that even among lesbians that are not butch or femme that masculine seems to be valued over feminine. Femmes are just as lesbian/queer/gay as any androgynous or masculine-looking female. Yes Starry, I agree, you are Superheroes.

[gaea]

I haven't had to "come out" in a awhile

recently we hired a new person and on her second day she and i had a conversation went like this

Her: Are you married?
Me : No its not allowed
Her: puzzled expression on her face..
Me: trying not to laugh, "I dont date men"
Her: backing out of the office quickly

me, im still trying not to laugh about this...

one of my coworkers is gay and he is obvious where as i guess im not...the constant "are you married" question is a big ole pain in the ass...

perhaps when it is allowed...perhaps someday i will be able to say "yes" not only to marriage however to the are you married question.

I like the femme that i am

[SugarFemme]

Unless I am on the arm of a butch, I come "Out" every single time I walk out the door of my home. And even then it is no guarantee. My ex-partner did not like PDA, so we never held hands in public. Never failed when we were together, we got the question, "Are you two sisters"?? Hmmmmm...lemme see, I'll let you decide.....I am 5'1" light brown eyes, dark hair and Jewish. She is was 5'9" blond hair and blue eyes, Pennsylvania Dutch Mennonite. Really??Sisters??

[LipstickLola]

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

[Ginger]

I've said already somewhere on the site, being femme was always a contextual ID for me—it was my way of "coming out" in my attraction to butch women.

Eventually, though, I ended up with a woman who looks and acts butch in many ways, but doesn't ascribe to that ID, and it felt like one hand clapping—me holding on to the femme thing, when she is pretty dismissive of butch-femme culture.

So, one day I woke up and it was gone. I felt like my femme ID had become obsolete.

I look very straight—make-up, big earrings, long, layered hair, and I wear dresses and skirts every day, with boots. Most people assume I'm straight.

But one day recently I realized I make the butch conductor on the LIRR very nervous. I'm certain she recognizes me as femme, and sort of activates it in me, though I hadn't been in touch with the ID for a long time.

I guess that sounds very dependent on others, that whole "activate" thing—like I'm some kind of doll waiting to be taken down from the shelf. Yuk! That isn't what I mean.

I have to think about this. The words aren't really right.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by LipstickLola

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

Boy can I ever relate to your words, Lipsticklola! I am in an area that is gay-friendly for the most part, but I still appear to be straight in most situations because I read femme as an older woman. When I'm at gay events, most of the time I feel like an outsider as if I don't quite belong. It isn't that the lesbians (or the gay men for that matter) that I know value masculinity so much as they value androgyny, looking like everyone else, being like everyone else. Many women in this community read butchish but don't quite have the male energy. And others may sort of look femme but they aren't either.

Recently I was told by a butch-type lesbian to stop using labels for identity and to broaden who I wanted to be with. Well, honey, I'm a stone femme. I don't want to be anything else and I only want to be with someone who gets who I am. My preference is for my stone complement. I may be a very, very late bloomer but I'd rather be alone than settle for someone who would try to make me into something I'm not.

Lipsticklola, we femmes have to stick together.

[Passionaria]

Again, thank you Quintease for posting this article and starting this conversation. I love her attitude, the exuberance of youth and exploration, makes me giggle, Not the subject matter, but her way of dealing.

I have led a pretty sheltered gay life, as in I have mostly been in the Butch Femme community. Recently I have been branching out and going to different events just to explore out of my comfort zone. I am finding that I am more accepted by my straight community of friends as a high femme lesbian than the andro-lesbian world. I have men friends who I know are interested in me, they have said so. I tell them about my (at the time girlfriend) and they are sad but rise to the occasion with respect and care. Same with my straight women friends (well they don't hit on me). I am out at work, and totally accepted. Now this is Austin.

This has not been true in my ventures into the androgynous lesbian world. One evening I went to a lesbian "book club" where a member was doing a reading from a new book she had written and published. I could not believe the reaction I got. I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I'm like OK (don't hate me) I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. No sumptuousness, no creamy rich butter, no honey dripping over cinnamon, just plain oatmeal. I can accept that they like plain oatmeal, but I find it boring. So we have differences, that's cool. I figure I'll just ask intelligent questions and meet them on an intellectual level. Well I made the speaker so nervous she had to be rude to me to feel in control. Her partner had to say in front of everyone, be nice she may want to buy your book. REALLY?

From this and other experiences I am starting believe that what they are yelling in their conformity is I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a Lesbian. And there appears to be a strict and yes narrow adherence to a set of standards that must be followed to be accepted in this community. Running to much male energy or too much female energy means your not one of the pack. Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme. Now I'm going somewhere with this so don't judge me. I could tell that I turned this author on, because she was all twitchy, she had a hard on and I was making her have to deal with her nasty masculinity in front of people who would judge her for it, and her partner who looked just like her, while she was trying to sell us on her book. So she was rude to me to deny the whole situation.

Case in point 2:
I was dating a lesbian boi who likes feminine women. But all the women she had dated were "lesbians" not high femmes. As a femme I am not going to pretend I don't like that nasty man thing your strapping on. I'm going to "put it down", cause I like that kind of sex. She felt her male energy full on for the first time in her life. She was talking about getting a sex change. And the things she was feeling scared her. She was online with a bunch of andro-lesbians and put herself out there like the freaky boi she is, and talking about likening to blindfold people and tie them up, and let me tell you, that went over like a ton of bricks. Next thing I know she's denying any love of her male energy, saying passionate wild sex is cold, and eating plain oatmeal with the rest of her friends, and saying Amen. But she fits in perfectly now. WOW, that's some social pressure!????

From these and a few other experiences the only thing that I can figure out as to why Femmes are treated the way we are in the andro community is this: Feminine energy is a powerful thing, especially when expressed with out inhibition. It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men. And the all out feminine energy represents a sell out to men, or a lushness that arouses the male energy. All of which appears to be taboo. Have I lost my mind, or does any of this make sense?? I'm really trying to understand my experiences.....

Pashi (the Drag Queen Parrot)

[SweetJane]

Passionaria, you're bringing the Word. This is exactly what I've experienced here. I long for my own kind, to be validated by them.

[Martina]

i know a lot of non-bf lesbians who have hot sex, in fact, kinky sex. Just saying.