Why lipstick lesbians have to keep coming out of the closet

[rustedrims]

I have a question..
Living in the Mennonite lifestyle didnt you tell any of your friends..??..Did any of them have the same feelings you had..??..Any attracted to other girls..Wondering..???..
Put a dress on me and i will out myself sooo fast it will make that sewing machine jam..!!!..I know i couldnt live or dress like that..NO..!!..

Yo..
You gotta be who you are or you will be misriable every day..
Think you are better off in here with us..
Welcome again..

s..

[yotlyolqualli]

I was so very far in denial that I refused to believe it myself. There was a man, on my father's side of the family; a distant cousin, his name was Wendell. It was a known fact that Wendell was gay and it was not spoken highly of. In fact, it was made light of and while I can't say anyone was ever cruel to him, not even cruel when they spoke so lightly of him, but I knew, even as a child, that being "that way" was not approved of, nor thought highly of.

Add into that, the factor that I was raised in such a conservative faith, I was never, ever, in any doubt that the feelings I was experiencing were NOT normal and indeed were sinful in their very nature. I contributed that to what I now see as the perfect storm, if you will.

I was abused as a child, by two men, not of my family or church family. Women, sadly, within that culture, the conservative ones, were taught to believe (although the Mennonite church is moving away from this idealism) that men simply could not control themselves. This was why women dressed so modestly and did not call attention to themselves. I'm not suggesting that the church convinced me that I was to blame for being molested, but the culture laid that foundation and once those feelings get a foot hold into the mind of an impressionable child, who already feels guilty, it creates the perfect storm.

So I believed what I was feeling was sinful and that I was sinful. My mind, the turmoil I had been through, the guilt that I felt, ate at me, until I believed that I was already something sinful and ugly to God, without redeemable qualities. When I allowed myself to actually feel anything towards any sex, it automatically registered in me, as being horribly sinful and wrong.

My first inkling that something wasn't quite "right" to me, was shortly after I hit puberty, at age nine. I was spending Sunday afternoon with my best friend and her family, between morning and even church services, which we would often do. Twila and I were playing "house" which, trust me, was something that girls were encouraged to do. So, Twila was the "Dad" and I was the "Mom" and we were in the hay loft, acting as though we were going to bed. Twila, bless her heart, leaned down and kissed me. A simple peck on the lips that lasted maybe 3 seconds tops, but that kiss sent a shock through me, a very very physically pleasurable shock, but a shock none the less.

It scared me. I never spent another sunday afternoon with her again. Not because I was afraid of her, but because I was afraid that I would somehow "taint" her, because I was so sinful and dirty.

It wasn't until years later that the idea that I could be gay, actually formed in my mind and I spent the next 20 years trying to hide it, to supress it, to not acknowledge it, indeed to PROVE that I was wrong. When I met my first g/f, which was basically an experimental fling, I realized that I was gay. I realized that I could no longer deny it, or control it nor did I want too. But even then, the years of faith, the Bible college, the year spent in the mission field, the years spent as a sunday/bible school teacher, as a worship leader as head of committees and various roles within the church, kept me from believing that I was anything but sinful.

So, admitting that I was gay, to myself, was not a moment of "that's why I felt that way" but rather a moment of "OK! That's it! I can't deny myself anymore, I give up!" It took me a year, living with a woman who was NOT nice, to say the least, to finally allow my faith and my sexuality, begin to merge. It was when I truly felt, deep within my soul, that I was God's creation and God doesn't make mistakes, that I could allow myself to see myself as not only normal, not only NOT sinful or an abomination, but as a Christian, who also happened to be a lesbian.

When I stopped labeling myself as something bad, allowed myself to acknowledge my still deep and abiding faith, and embraced who I was, fully and completely (lots of therapy to get over the abuse... then lots of therapy to get over the not nice woman), that's when I began to emmerge out of my shell.

As for dressing as a Mennonite? For me, that was all that I knew. It was normal for me. I felt most comfortable in a dress, with the prayer cap. In fact, it allowed me to escape into a semblance of normalcy. When I came out to myself, then to my family and then to my church, even before I "left" the church, I stopped wearing the prayer cap and I stopped wearing the ultra conservative dresses. However, I still preferred dresses. It was what I was most comfortable in.

As for leaving the church. Mennonites practice shunning. That's where an elder is sent to "confront" a sinning member of the church, and try to councel that person into compliance with the church's teaching. If that doesn't work, then the entire board of elders will approach the sinning member (with wives if said member is a woman) and if that doesn't bring the menber into compliance, they are shunned. Sometimes to the extreme. When a person is shunned, not even the parents or siblings, or even children and spouses are permitted to eat with that person or talk to that person or pray with that person. Even in the most loving fashion (and most shunnings are done in love) they are harsh and very very strict in their view of what compliance is. The point of them is scripturally based, they are done to "lovingly shame" that member into coming back into compliance with the teachings of the church.

That was where I used the brain God gave me. Most of the people I went to church with, were siblings, aunts, uncles and cousins. In order for me to continue to go to church, if I chose too, and in order for my family to be able to relate to me without the overshadowing of the shunning, I simply withdrew my membership from the church, but not the congreghation.

I probably just answered more than what you wanted to know..., but there it is. As far as anyone else feeling that way? Not that I know of and Twila is now married with a little girl, a good husband and is happy, genuinely happy, so I know that kiss didn't mean anything to her or do anything "for" her.

One more thing, being Mennonite isn't just a religious experience, it is a culture, a beautiful culture, steeped in tradition and a very simplistic way of life. Even as a lesbian, I want to be the "wife", the role I truly believe God has called me to. A wife in the Mennonite traditional sense of the word. Someone who see's her "husband" as head of the family of the relationship and even as head of the spiritual health of the relationship. Most Mennonite women are submissive to their spouses. I am no different, my ideal spouse just happens to be another woman, a butch woman who feels the need to BE that head of the family.

I like it here, it has a very nice feel to it and I thank you rustedrims, for your interest and your welcome... *S

[rustedrims]

Hey Yo..

Just got done reading your post..
I sat back in my chair and said hum out loud..
There are a million thoughts going on in my mind now.
Thoughts of my x and the creepy things her dad did to her as a kid and her mom knowing..sister..??..
There is a word you used that stuck out in my mind i will ask you about a little later..I need to go outside and ride around on the mower for a while and think..I know what i have gone through finding a place in life where i was accepted and comfortable..I cant imagine living in that enviroment and being who you are..The stress has got to be unbearable..
You did answer my questions and the ones i was going to ask..Thank-you so much for your honesty..After reading what you wrote i am guessing it was still weighing on your mind..Being "let go" from your family,friends and maybe comfort zone to be by yourself..Maybe a blessing in disguise..If you were standing in front of me right now i would give you the Biggest Butch Hug..

s..

[femmsational]

I came out later in life. I was married to a man when I figured out I was in fact a big old dyke. I'd never been with a woman in any way but had always been unhappy. I'm not sure how to explain it other than it just dawned on me why I always got a little flutter in the tummy around butch women and men never did a thing for me. So, I got divorced and proceeded to try and figure out *my* gay. Or how I fit into the world as a lesbian.

I didn't know what to do so I hit a lesbian bar, had a couple flings, and joined a lesbian hiking club I found locally on line. It took almost a year before they even believed me. Which I can understand. I had been married and I was REAL new to being who I should have been all along.

It was so frustrating. I sure as hell wasn't going to change who I was, or how I presented, I was gay, not fashion confused??? I liked make-up, skirts, heels but I also wore jeans and boots to work every day and came home smelling like every nasty horse thing you can think of.

At first it bothered me. I met someone and began a year long relationship. It didn't work out and when I tried to tell her kindly that I was sorry but it wasn't working for me, she blew a gasket and yelled at me...."I should know better about you straight girls." This from someone I dated for a year

At that point I was pissed. I was who I was. If "they" don't get it, that's on "them." I had a moment. Got really mad one night and got one kanji tattoo on my right wrist that represents a rainbow and another on my left wrist that represents woman.....and I felt better. I stopped caring and just started living my life. I met someone who "got it" and dated them for four years. It seems to get easier the older I get. I guess I'm unwilling to give that much power to people who don't get me.

I don't "come out" today at all. I feel like if someone asks me if I'm married I just say yeah, my husband, she's wonderful. They either get it or they don't lol. If someone asks me about me, I'm filling in THEIR blank with my answer. So I really don't consider it me coming out. I'm already out.

I do understand the frustration about being unseen as who I am. But I just can't bring myself to care anymore. Unless of course someone acts a fool about it.

This is just how it works for ME!!! I hope I haven't offened anyone.


Take care,
julie

[rustedrims]

I had no idea what your day was like..I thought your lifestyle was hidden because " you dont look gay".. Then as you go about your daily business people dont look-stare at you because your lifestyle isnt written all over your appearance..Every time i leave my house i out myself..{Like today,went to the gas station..I put on my dirty jeans cut off t-shirt baseball hat on backwards in my 4x4 truck..How much more can i do to get the looks or stares..Guess i am asking for it}..Anyway i always thought that was a good thing like flying under the radar then when you get home you can be who you are..I see now getting asked out by bio males can be overwhelming at times..I do get asked by a guy at work to go out all the time..Always have turned him down..He is a nice guy and i do like him but cant do it..Guess he doesnt see it..The agervation also that a butch doesnt take you serious when asked out has to get a little discouraging to..I live in little town USA and if a pretty girl asked me out i would think she was setting me up for something uncomfortable and i might turn her down..I had no idea..
I tell ya if you were walking with me down any street any where people would know whats up and that we were together by my apperance. I would be attentive to your needs like opening doors and stuff like that..Funny as i wrote that my mom and sister always step back so i can get the door..Just habbit for them and me..

s..

[rustedrims]

I re-read your post again..
Still amaizes me how your own family and friends turn their back on you so easily because your lifestyle is different than theirs..Maybe they had thoughts of our lifestyle and was courious to it and wondered..

Did Wendal stay there and be celibate [spelling?] or pretend his ways were changed when he was confronted..??..Was he confronted..??..Are the rules the same for males that believe they are gay..??..Sorry just trying to understand..I watch the documentary shows about the different religious beliefs and their practices..I pay attention to why the little girls are forced into sexual acts and i am still not understanding why..You answered that question already..Not an accepital one to me..That is just crazy and very a very weak excuse..

Ok now a word you used i would like to know the meaning to..
Abomination i have heard it being used in 2 different ways and maybe a 3rd with you using it..
My Xes family always put on a front that they were Christin people and believed in the Bible 100%..From what i saw they hid behind it..Every now and then they would quote something in there to make it seem like they knew what they were talking about..There was a disscussion with her sister about something in the straight life that was against the Bible and she said it was an abomination..Cant remember what it was but it was relating to the straight life and doing something wrong..There was also something going on in that family that was real creepy..They didnt like the idea that i asked her to move in with me and she did..Just creepy..Another time was relating to the gay lifestyle..It was mentioned that living the gay lifestyle was an abomination..Either way that word was used was not in a positive way..
Could you please explain to me exactly what that word abomination means..
I just want to understand this and eger to learn also..

Thanks again for your honesty..

s..

[yotlyolqualli]

An abomination is a word used in scripture, to describe an evil, vile, or disgusting act.

I used that word, because it is the word used by all christians, who believe homosexuality is wrong, to describe homosexuality.

I am very learned in scripture. The Mennonite church really pushes their members, especially children, to not only memorize scripture, but to search it for the truth. Unlike some faiths that preach on dogma and doctrine, the Mennonites rely more heavily on the scripture (Bible) itself.

Something I noticed in your posts, that I wanted to clarify. When I left the church, I did it in such a way, that I could still have "fellowship".. meaning contact and interaction with them, without making them choose between following the church's teaching, and following their heart where I was concerned. My family, while supportive, even to the point of inviting my (ex) g/f, to family functions and included her in family photo's, do NOT think that homosexuality is right, but love me in spite of what they feel about my sexuality. I wanted to make that known and understood.

Perhaps I'll start another thread, explaining more about how I came to embrace both my faith and my sexuality.

Again, thank you so much for your interest and for making me feel so welcome.

[rustedrims]

I thought you were left alone without any contact with anyone..
That is good that you are still welcomed in the family..
sorry..I missunderstood..

I was right on guessing that word ment something bad..
Living this lifestyle isnt bad to me ,,,it is comfortable..

[spritzerJ]

YO: thank you for sharing so openly. You have a beautiful story of love and faith. So grateful you are willing to share.
Thank you RR for being respectfully open.
This is a beautiful community here and the dialogue between you two is a wonderful example.

[rustedrims]

Thanks for the kind words Spritzer..
I like it in here and if there is something i dont understand i ask and it is
answered very honestly..Always ready to learn new things..

s..

[Quintease]

It took over a year for the lesbians to believe I was gay. Even while I was with my first girlfriend I still had doubters.

At the time it sucked but now, now I understand it. Lesbians are just like anyone, we all hate rejection. It's ok to say 'She left me because she wasn't into women and it's ok', but it's not ok. None of us are ever ok about being dumped. Yet so many non-lesbians walk into the lesbian community as women are so warm and welcoming and so understanding, only to walk out a few years later when they realise they love the company of women, not the sexuality.

I ''stole'' one of my exes from a girl, who we later found out had realised she was heterosexual while she was still with my friend. My friend couldn't face it but the rest of us knew. Did I feel bad about stealing her? Not really, especially when it came out later that she'd been having an affair with a boy behind my friends back. Did it make my friend feel better knowing that she'd moved on with someone else? Not really. She'd turned to me as she was feeling hurt, paranoid and rejected. To have all of that confirmed as a reality really stung. It's that kind of behaviour which makes gay women excessively cautious.

I'm not in the habit of stealing other peoples girlfriends btw, that was the one and only time.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Quintease

It took over a year for the lesbians to believe I was gay. Even while I was with my first girlfriend I still had doubters.

At the time it sucked but now, now I understand it. Lesbians are just like anyone, we all hate rejection. It's ok to say 'She left me because she wasn't into women and it's ok', but it's not ok. None of us are ever ok about being dumped. Yet so many non-lesbians walk into the lesbian community as women are so warm and welcoming and so understanding, only to walk out a few years later when they realise they love the company of women, not the sexuality.

I ''stole'' one of my exes from a girl, who we later found out had realised she was heterosexual while she was still with my friend. My friend couldn't face it but the rest of us knew. Did I feel bad about stealing her? Not really, especially when it came out later that she'd been having an affair with a boy behind my friends back. Did it make my friend feel better knowing that she'd moved on with someone else? Not really. She'd turned to me as she was feeling hurt, paranoid and rejected. To have all of that confirmed as a reality really stung. It's that kind of behaviour which makes gay women excessively cautious.

I'm not in the habit of stealing other peoples girlfriends btw, that was the one and only time.

This is all great and everything. I'm glad we're talking about this stuff but fuck people are emotionally retarded! Really....emotionally delayed, wtf people.
This is just my opinion. I expect no one to subscribe to it. But that 'girlfriend that was stolen' was not stolen since she did not belong to anyone but herself. She is not someone's property. She DID do a douchey and dishonest thing be being with more than 1 BUT ONLY IF SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE COMMITTED TO ONE.
This is why I think people should be more poly and honest about it. Then people won't have to be the romantic drama (emotional) focal point in the world and people can just be honest and clear about needs and desires (it's ok to have needs and desires. just be emotionally clean, non-douchey and speak when you know how you feel).
When we have sex, the potential for love is there. Love comes from the actions of hormones (O,V,T,E, prolactin and it's run by dopamine). Love feels holy and sacred since these are the same hormones and neurotransmitters that we connect to God or the Creator with. When anyone (elephants, humans, dogs) have sex they run these hormones, they create the potential for love. It's how one runs and guides oneself (hormonally and via which neurotransmitters in the brain) when you do have sex that determines whether or not one will be in love with said lover at some point.
Anyways, I guess I am better off being a cracked gem and unable to attract a lover. At least an emotionally stable lover. At least that's what I'll tell myself as I huddle alone in my bed

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by rustedrims

I had no idea what your day was like..I thought your lifestyle was hidden because " you dont look gay".. Then as you go about your daily business people dont look-stare at you because your lifestyle isnt written all over your appearance..Every time i leave my house i out myself..{Like today,went to the gas station..I put on my dirty jeans cut off t-shirt baseball hat on backwards in my 4x4 truck..How much more can i do to get the looks or stares..Guess i am asking for it}..Anyway i always thought that was a good thing like flying under the radar then when you get home you can be who you are..I see now getting asked out by bio males can be overwhelming at times..I do get asked by a guy at work to go out all the time..Always have turned him down..He is a nice guy and i do like him but cant do it..Guess he doesnt see it..The agervation also that a butch doesnt take you serious when asked out has to get a little discouraging to..I live in little town USA and if a pretty girl asked me out i would think she was setting me up for something uncomfortable and i might turn her down..I had no idea..
I tell ya if you were walking with me down any street any where people would know whats up and that we were together by my apperance. I would be attentive to your needs like opening doors and stuff like that..Funny as i wrote that my mom and sister always step back so i can get the door..Just habbit for them and me..

s..

Thank you for your kindness and understanding. When we reach for each other, try to understand how each other think/feel, we make our hearts more complete and whole. I honor and respect the place in you that honors and respects me.
I do energy work, meaning I work on understanding and knowing hormones, neurotransmitters and the other trace protein structures that make us think/feel/do everything we think/feel/do.
We live in a world where T is more respected that E so when a woman is being her normal self, she is seen as making a man be attracted to her. His T is being normal, making him have that surge in energy (which often will initially manifest as a desire to fuck or fight). But one needs to be responsible for their own T reaction. Men are often let off the hook. And some feel offended when a woman doesn't want their T (or body or whatever).
This is the hardest part about being a femme. I am very maternal, I'm told I am radiant and men and children stop and stare at me often. Straight women my age or younger hate me. Older women love me because I talk about deep things they feel now that they're menopausal. The part about straight women hating me makes no sense since I'm missing teeth and you see it when I smile (HEY! I'm 1/2 English!). I feel not that beautiful. But beauty comes from the action of E. The markers of beauty in the body (soft, fair skin, long silky hair, big breasts and wide hip to waist ratio, that swaying walk, large luminous eyes, etc.) are expressions of the actions of estrogen from in utero to now. It is normal for T to react to seeing those expressions of E. It's how you handle it that makes you a man or a douche (which you obviously know already rustedrims).
I guess what I really wanted to get across is that we all have our struggles in dealing with emotions and other people. I appreciate gaining perspective and hearing about how others deal with life.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by mariamma

But that 'girlfriend that was stolen' was not stolen since she did not belong to anyone but herself. She is not someone's property. She DID do a douchey and dishonest thing be being with more than 1 BUT ONLY IF SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE COMMITTED TO ONE.

I see your point as I'm all for poly, but even by my reckoning she was kinda stolen as she was supposed to be committed to someone in a monogamous relationship. Finding out afterwards that you were both cheating doesn't quite nullify the fact that you did it in the first place.

I guess the thing that crystallised my thoughts about it was when my friends ex confronted me much later, publicly, and after we had the big picture. It was a confrontation that went nowhere as I refused to engage. I don't think you have any right to be judgemental if you're the one who behaved badly first.

[ValKyrie]

I was raised in a fundamental christian religion that believes in a literal bible. I first felt the desire to kiss another girl when I was 8 years old and I made the mistake of telling a family member. I was severely chastised and told that I had to ask god for forgiveness and pray continuosly for him to change my heart. When I was 13 my father caught me in the closet with 2 of the neighbor girls. He sent me to reform school clear acrossed the US. I was there for 2 years. I went to a strict religious boarding academy for highschool, and there I met my first girlfriend. She was butch, but she would dress in dresses, etc. because it was expected of her. We both ended up marrying bio boys when we graduated, because we knew that if we were open we would both be shut out by our families, friends, everyone we knew. I am very femminine and always have been. Although I am pretty athletic and play some sports, and I don't mind getting dirty, or working on my car, I like to be girly about the way I do all of those things. I finally got the courage and confidence to come out last year. I left the church I grew up in several years ago, but it still has taken me a lot of time to make peace with the self shame so ingrained in me. I was married to a bio man (my second marriage) when I came out, although our relationship had been strictly platonic since the the birth of my youngest child (2 years old). He actually was the only person who didn't question the validity of me claiming to be a lesbian. I play roller derby and have a large group of friends who are on varrying degrees of the queer/gay continuim, but even to a lot of them, I feel like I have had to prove that I really am gay. My family has cut me off, not even allowing me to come to the funeral of a family member. My oldest child (from my first marriage), 13 year old, has not spoken with me since Thanksgiving. He is being raised in the same religion as I was and has been taught the same things about homosexuality being wrong.

I guess I've kind of gone off on a tangent here, my point is that I feel that now I actually have the courage and confidence to be my authentic self, I want everyone to know. It's frustrating to have bio men constantly hitting on me (sometimes they do it even when I'm out with my partner!) And if I tell them that I am a lesbian, they think it's hot and tell me that it's just because I haven't been with a "real" man. It feels really degrading. I am in an amazing relationship with a stone butch. People just assume that when I talk about dates, gifts, etc, that I am talking about a man. Even some of my lesbian friends have told me that I am not a real lesbian because my partner looks, talks, and acts like a boy. I guess I just want to feel validated. It's hard to feel like you don't fit in even with most of the people inside of your minority.

One of the sweetest things that my love has ever told me was that she never doubted that I was gay from the first time she saw me and I looked into her eyes.

[mariamma]

What a great tale. Thanks for sharing. And I do think it's great when I'm busted by gaydar. I used to hate it when I was with men (conscious choice....long story) but it is great when someone looks into your eyes and SEES you.

Originally Posted by ValKyrie

I was raised in a fundamental christian religion that believes in a literal bible. I first felt the desire to kiss another girl when I was 8 years old and I made the mistake of telling a family member. I was severely chastised and told that I had to ask god for forgiveness and pray continuosly for him to change my heart. When I was 13 my father caught me in the closet with 2 of the neighbor girls. He sent me to reform school clear acrossed the US. I was there for 2 years. I went to a strict religious boarding academy for highschool, and there I met my first girlfriend. She was butch, but she would dress in dresses, etc. because it was expected of her. We both ended up marrying bio boys when we graduated, because we knew that if we were open we would both be shut out by our families, friends, everyone we knew. I am very femminine and always have been. Although I am pretty athletic and play some sports, and I don't mind getting dirty, or working on my car, I like to be girly about the way I do all of those things. I finally got the courage and confidence to come out last year. I left the church I grew up in several years ago, but it still has taken me a lot of time to make peace with the self shame so ingrained in me. I was married to a bio man (my second marriage) when I came out, although our relationship had been strictly platonic since the the birth of my youngest child (2 years old). He actually was the only person who didn't question the validity of me claiming to be a lesbian. I play roller derby and have a large group of friends who are on varrying degrees of the queer/gay continuim, but even to a lot of them, I feel like I have had to prove that I really am gay. My family has cut me off, not even allowing me to come to the funeral of a family member. My oldest child (from my first marriage), 13 year old, has not spoken with me since Thanksgiving. He is being raised in the same religion as I was and has been taught the same things about homosexuality being wrong.

I guess I've kind of gone off on a tangent here, my point is that I feel that now I actually have the courage and confidence to be my authentic self, I want everyone to know. It's frustrating to have bio men constantly hitting on me (sometimes they do it even when I'm out with my partner!) And if I tell them that I am a lesbian, they think it's hot and tell me that it's just because I haven't been with a "real" man. It feels really degrading. I am in an amazing relationship with a stone butch. People just assume that when I talk about dates, gifts, etc, that I am talking about a man. Even some of my lesbian friends have told me that I am not a real lesbian because my partner looks, talks, and acts like a boy. I guess I just want to feel validated. It's hard to feel like you don't fit in even with most of the people inside of your minority.

One of the sweetest things that my love has ever told me was that she never doubted that I was gay from the first time she saw me and I looked into her eyes.

[boobookitty]

"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females."

I agree...
I just wanted to share a remiinder that not all lipstick lesbians are femme.
Most of the time when I read something about lipstick's --'lipstick lesbian' and 'femme' are treated as if the terms mean the same thing.

We are few in number, but there are for real Lipstick Butches, out here in the real world.

[nycfem]

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