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Old 05-09-2011, 01:23 AM   #41
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^ thank you I appreciate that.
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:56 AM   #42
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Hey Merlin -

It's not really that the forums are all that "cliquey" but I do think people on these boards are super protective of the Queer space and are pretty watchful for the glorification of dating straight women. (not saying you are doing that)
In years past, many Femmes (and Butches too!) have felt erased and devalued when folks talk about dating straight women as if it is the apex of all things hot. Especially in a space where Femmes want to be seen and appreciated (because let's face it, we're mostly invisible out in the world)

I do think there are cultural differences, especially in a microcasm such as this site where many folks have been having these discussions for years. Either way, I'm interested in what you have to say!

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Old 05-09-2011, 08:02 AM   #43
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Hi Merlin, and welcome to the site

I think it's a question of defining "straight"...

Would a truly, 100% straight woman be interested in having a relationship with a butch? I think not.

It might be a matter of where you found her on her own personal growth curve. Most people (including myself) would have called me straight until I was in my 40s. For a variety of reasons, including some I wasn't even aware of myself for a long time, I pushed down my own sexuality and went along with what I was "supposed" to do and want.

It took me a long time to come out, even to myself.

Maybe that's true for them too...
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:19 AM   #44
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Oh dear,

It seems this has gone a bit twisted with people jumping on the defensive.

This is a discussion board is it not?

Hmmm maybe I shouldn't ask questions that seemed to have hit a nerve ..

My bad .. Maybe the pond is too big and we won't connect.

Haven't been on the scene for a long time so I don't know of all the genders,id's etc.

And it's not a shit stirring thread .. Nor was I asking because I get kicks out of turning straight women.

I date them because they the gay pond in which we all fish over here is tiny,itsmore of a puddle.

Think of the spider gram on the l word , America has a huge lake in which you fish.

Seems some folk like to jump on newbies .. This is why some forums are cliquey.
I don't think this has anything to do with British prespectives vs. American ones. I haven't been here as long as some and even I've noticed that every once in a while a new member will come in and ask about straight women and butches. Seemed to happen every so often on the bf site too. Usually in those topics a lot of heteronormative stereotypes are thrown around that are usually more a result of people's exposure/inexposure to certain gender issues that really have nothing to do with nationality, since there have been Americans that have come in and talked about it too.

I don't see it as a specific fascination. People like who they like, and I don't think we can generalise about butches and straight women any more than any other queer group and straight people.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:50 AM   #45
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Oh dear,

It seems this has gone a bit twisted with people jumping on the defensive.

This is a discussion board is it not?

Hmmm maybe I shouldn't ask questions that seemed to have hit a nerve ..

My bad .. Maybe the pond is too big and we won't connect.

Haven't been on the scene for a long time so I don't know of all the genders,id's etc.

And it's not a shit stirring thread .. Nor was I asking because I get kicks out of turning straight women.

I date them because they the gay pond in which we all fish over here is tiny,itsmore of a puddle.

Think of the spider gram on the l word , America has a huge lake in which you fish.

Seems some folk like to jump on newbies .. This is why some forums are cliquey.
Hiya, Merlin

Nice to meet you. I'm an Irish expatriate. There are cultural differences, indeed.

Whatever you do, don't start talking about willets, thews or lallies. Someone's bound to call a sharpy.

I've never slept with a straight women. If they slept with me, they ain't.

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Old 05-09-2011, 09:09 AM   #46
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Merlin, welcome to BFP!

Please don't think you are being picked on, a lot of people just read the title of a thread and then jump....it happens to all us! Keeps us on our toes!

Butches and straight women? It takes all kinds. For some, yes it may be easier to be seen with a Butch who passes, and some may not really be straight, just don't know they are queer yet?

Best to you and don't get discouraged here! I have visited London several times and communication is a bit different, but definitely workable and fun!
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:58 AM   #47
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I cringe when I hear the word "straight woman" only because I'm sick of everyone assuming I am. I've heard it over, and over, "but you look straight." WTF does straight look like????

As far as butches with straight women, femmes with straight women, straight women with straight women, whatever floats your ducky!

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Old 05-09-2011, 10:21 AM   #48
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Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:27 AM   #49
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For the record am fed up of being a joke to the mainstream lesbian community,it's amazing what homophobia is rife in the gay community xx
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:43 AM   #50
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Hi Merlin,

I believe I saw someone else make this same suggestion to you that I am making now. Often times, it is best to check out the forum, read the various threads, and get a feel for the general terminology used, mentality, personalities etc. on the forum.

I've witnessed a few come charging in on forums before starting thread after thread without realizing that they may be speaking in ways that are offensive to the group at large and then they get their feelings hurt and are embarrassed because the group takes them to task. Slow down, give everyone an opportunity to get to know you, and you us.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:06 AM   #51
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Noted.

Like I said ice breaker.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.
I think the same or similar can be said for most places in the world. The bf community as well as other less visible communities in the LGBT spectrum have definitely benefited a lot from internet communication.

Since it came up at the end of this post as well, you might find that what many people (whether b/f or others within the spectrum who take interest in gender issues and how sexism and heteronormativity can be damaging) will take issue with the equation of masculinity with being male. For example, in your first post you ask whether "straight women" might like butches as having the "best of both worlds" with "male looks" and "female anatomy." I think that kind of equation of masculine = male is something some might react negatively to, and admit it got a bit of an eyeroll from me as well. A butch woman who sees masculinity as unique from male probably isn't going to consider her own masculinity a "male look." Same with others who might id as genderqueer, third gender or who generally consider sexuality and gender as fluid rather restricted to a specific set of binaries.

Like others have suggested, it might be best for you to do a bit of reading, not just on this forum but in general on gender issues within the queer spectrum. Not sure if you've read Judith Halberstam's Female Masculinity but a good briefer on the subject if you're interested.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:06 PM   #53
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Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.
The BF community is not that great here either, we find each other through the web here too.

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For the record am fed up of being a joke to the mainstream lesbian community,it's amazing what homophobia is rife in the gay community xx
It really is sad I agree.

I do have to say I have been to London 7 or 8 times, and never seen a Butch on the street (and I look lol), which I do in my wayyyy smaller city here in the US. No, I have not been to the Lesbian bar, was not sure what the Femme reception would be like. It's gotten better here over the past few years, but one never knows.

Yes, it becomes tiresome to be looked at as a freak by mainstream Lesbians. My "straight" friends seem to understand way better than my Gay friends.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:50 PM   #54
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I don't see the issue with us talking about straight people, I mean, they talk about us. Every young female star that matters is talking about going bi and its 'cool' now for straight men to snog. Talking about straight people is no.big.deal.

Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes. I don't assume any straight woman who sleeps with a femme, boi or butch is secretly on the verge of coming out, sometimes they just want a bit of variety.

I was a straight girl once and slept with loads of boys, my first real 'lesbian' crush was with a bisexual girl who preferred boys. I ended up with a 60% lesbian and she ended up with a boy, yet I still wonder why straight women see lesbians as being under the radar.

As for the looking straight thing *sigh* What does that even mean?? I look straight to straight women, bisexual to straight men and bi/gay/queer/straight to lesbians and gay men. I figure people just see what they wanna see.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:55 PM   #55
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Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.
Where do you live mate? I think the bf community isn't as bad or as small as you're painting it here. I have loads of bf mates... ok so I don't see them all the time and keep in touch via the bf sites and facebook but they are there if you seek them out. I'm lucky I guess in that I live an hour or so away from one of the massive (Northern) cities (Manchester) where there's a bf and kink community to go play out with whenever I want.

Not sure why you're not finding bf folks, have you signed up to the UK bf sites - of which there are 3 to my knowledge.

apocalipstic - sometimes I feel my straight male mates understand where I'm coming from much better than my mainstream lezzer mates too.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:55 PM   #56
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Female Masculinity but a good briefer on the subject if you're interested.
Oh. I would add to read this with an open mind! S/he has some really debatable things to say about FTM's and femmes.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:55 PM   #57
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I don't see the issue with us talking about straight people, I mean, they talk about us. Every young female star that matters is talking about going bi and its 'cool' now for straight men to snog. Talking about straight people is no.big.deal.

Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes. I don't assume any straight woman who sleeps with a femme, boi or butch is secretly on the verge of coming out, sometimes they just want a bit of variety.

I was a straight girl once and slept with loads of boys, my first real 'lesbian' crush was with a bisexual girl who preferred boys. I ended up with a 60% lesbian and she ended up with a boy, yet I still wonder why straight women see lesbians as being under the radar.

As for the looking straight thing *sigh* What does that even mean?? I look straight to straight women, bisexual to straight men and bi/gay/queer/straight to lesbians and gay men. I figure people just see what they wanna see.
I love the word "shag", makes me grin! ")

Some of us look like straight women and have been told so all our adult lives. I get told I look like I teach Sunday School. lol. No matter what I wear or do I look really feminine.

Now, I do get your point about how does gay or lesbian look! A lesbian must look like me, since I am one! lol But, its usually a shock to people and I have to tell them in weird awkward ways like "pass the salsa, I'm a Lesbian".

ps. no prob talking about straight people from me lol
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:09 PM   #58
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How does gay or lesbian look?
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:12 PM   #59
Apocalipstic
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We can look any and every way!

But some of us get told we look straight non-stop. It is annoying. lol.

Maybe if I got the Bieber haircut and hat? thought at 47, it would probably look silly on me.
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:14 PM   #60
EnderD_503
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Oh. I would add to read this with an open mind! S/he has some really debatable things to say about FTM's and femmes.
In a Queer Time and Place: Transgender Bodies and Subcultural Lives is a great read in addition to Female Masculinity. It clarifies her current thoughts on some of those issues. She writes an awesome analysis of Boys Don't Cry and other trans films.
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