Exclusion: A Women's Issue?

[Jess]

The topic of this thread may seem initially offensive and I pray that is not the case. I see it as a very timely and perhaps imperative discussion to host in this , if not every, LGBT ( et al) community. I see growing pains happening left and right and many folks attempting to touch on the very "touchy" subject of needing and requesting separate space for discussions, etc and not quite being able to " get there".

We as a whole are primarily female ( body) born individuals( whether we agree with that biological fact or are unfortunate to have been "misplaced" in that body) who have chosen a melange of venues with which to express our inner selves. We are MTF's ,FTM's ,gay, queer, trans-sexual-sensual-gendered-continental. Our common denominator is the "female" or "woman" somewhere within us. Sometimes surfaced and sometimes tucked away and less "up front". The experiences we have or have had as these "females" is what connects us. If not, I ask , what is?

I think it is amazing that so many people with such vast life experience can gather within this ( and other similar) spaces and become so very close in our sharing. It is equally amazing, that we often fraction ourselves off defensively rather than allowing for .. no.. "praising" the differences with the respect that can sometimes only come with respectful "exclusion".

Please understand, when I use the term exclusion, it is not without a great sense of dread as we ( women, whether current or former or yet to become) do not "allow" ourselves this privilege. I dread being misunderstood or seen as a "separatist" or discriminatory or any other variety of words that someone looking to take issue with could find. This is my fear... being a woman who is not allowed to "choose" to talk with or be with those whom I choose or moreover.. "without" the voices I don't currently wish to hear in said discussion/ activity.

I have witnessed this in threads from femmes, from female identified butches, from transexuals, from transgendered, from People of Color, from religion based groups, from political groups.. The list goes on within female born communities. It seems as if we don't feel our voices worthy enough to just say " this is for ______ not for _______" That should be enough.

I observe we as humans, share our space daily with all kinds of "others" and mostly we either gain from that sharing or we have moments of oppression for it. Why is it so hard for us to say "I want some time with _______ and while I love you... go away for a while" ? It is often the knowing smile of a familiar that gets us through the day. Why not demand time for that?

I think , personally, that many of the issues that we see become so heated in so many threads might become resolved if we allow one another the space to just be those separate facets of ourselves without interruption. If femmes or transmen or female id'ed butches need a thread for themselves, just own it. Name it and claim it! We have an entire site, or world ,for that matter to meet back on common ground. Perhaps we will be stronger individuals to add to the collective if we take our opportunities to gather our strength.

I imagine a world of strong people coming together to claim what is and should be ours. If parts of the whole need to take some time out now and then to be with like folks to make that happen, Blessed Be! Exclusion is not a wholly bad thing. We do not have to invite everyone to every party.

These are just some thoughts I have been stewing over in the past month or so of observing many thread of thoughts expressed on line. I think there is room and love enough for everyone. I also think there can be respect enough to allow for time/ space for "just us".. whomever the "us" is.

Without trying to "step on toes" and also not trying to "tiptoe around a situation" I think there are simple ways we can make this happen without doing either. EX: A user has a discussion for "femmes".. go to femme zone, post it with disclaimer "for femmes only". That should be simple enough to respect. If someone other than a femme wishes to follow it, do so.. post a "thanks" for something they like, but refrain from commenting unless choosing to do so in private. This is of course, just suggestion. This could allow for private conversing without derailing threads or anyone feeling "silenced" or "invisible". It will possibly also allow the original conversation to flow on its intended course.

Again.... just thought from yet one of a million observers.

I thank you all for taking the time to read/ respond/ discuss.
Respectfully, Jess

[christie]

I think that this is a very timely topic and I am not asskissing just because I adore you... you, of all people, know better than that...

Its been two very long work days for me and I can't seem to gather my thoughts on this... will be back to post when I am more coherent.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Jess

The topic of this thread may seem initially offensive and I pray that is not the case. I see it as a very timely and perhaps imperative discussion to host in this , if not every, LGBT ( et al) community. I see growing pains happening left and right and many folks attempting to touch on the very "touchy" subject of needing and requesting separate space for discussions, etc and not quite being able to " get there".

We as a whole are primarily female ( body) born individuals( whether we agree with that biological fact or are unfortunate to have been "misplaced" in that body) who have chosen a melange of venues with which to express our inner selves. We are MTF's ,FTM's ,gay, queer, trans-sexual-sensual-gendered-continental. Our common denominator is the "female" or "woman" somewhere within us. Sometimes surfaced and sometimes tucked away and less "up front". The experiences we have or have had as these "females" is what connects us. If not, I ask , what is?

I think it is amazing that so many people with such vast life experience can gather within this ( and other similar) spaces and become so very close in our sharing. It is equally amazing, that we often fraction ourselves off defensively rather than allowing for .. no.. "praising" the differences with the respect that can sometimes only come with respectful "exclusion".

Please understand, when I use the term exclusion, it is not without a great sense of dread as we ( women, whether current or former or yet to become) do not "allow" ourselves this privilege. I dread being misunderstood or seen as a "separatist" or discriminatory or any other variety of words that someone looking to take issue with could find. This is my fear... being a woman who is not allowed to "choose" to talk with or be with those whom I choose or moreover.. "without" the voices I don't currently wish to hear in said discussion/ activity.

I have witnessed this in threads from femmes, from female identified butches, from transexuals, from transgendered, from People of Color, from religion based groups, from political groups.. The list goes on within female born communities. It seems as if we don't feel our voices worthy enough to just say " this is for ______ not for _______" That should be enough.

I observe we as humans, share our space daily with all kinds of "others" and mostly we either gain from that sharing or we have moments of oppression for it. Why is it so hard for us to say "I want some time with _______ and while I love you... go away for a while" ? It is often the knowing smile of a familiar that gets us through the day. Why not demand time for that?

I think , personally, that many of the issues that we see become so heated in so many threads might become resolved if we allow one another the space to just be those separate facets of ourselves without interruption. If femmes or transmen or female id'ed butches need a thread for themselves, just own it. Name it and claim it! We have an entire site, or world ,for that matter to meet back on common ground. Perhaps we will be stronger individuals to add to the collective if we take our opportunities to gather our strength.

I imagine a world of strong people coming together to claim what is and should be ours. If parts of the whole need to take some time out now and then to be with like folks to make that happen, Blessed Be! Exclusion is not a wholly bad thing. We do not have to invite everyone to every party.

These are just some thoughts I have been stewing over in the past month or so of observing many thread of thoughts expressed on line. I think there is room and love enough for everyone. I also think there can be respect enough to allow for time/ space for "just us".. whomever the "us" is.

Without trying to "step on toes" and also not trying to "tiptoe around a situation" I think there are simple ways we can make this happen without doing either. EX: A user has a discussion for "femmes".. go to femme zone, post it with disclaimer "for femmes only". That should be simple enough to respect. If someone other than a femme wishes to follow it, do so.. post a "thanks" for something they like, but refrain from commenting unless choosing to do so in private. This is of course, just suggestion. This could allow for private conversing without derailing threads or anyone feeling "silenced" or "invisible". It will possibly also allow the original conversation to flow on its intended course.

Again.... just thought from yet one of a million observers.

I thank you all for taking the time to read/ respond/ discuss.
Respectfully, Jess

Respectfully,

What's your point?
How are we NOT doing this already? You referenced in your post numerous threads where this is exactly what's going on. We ARE requesting dialogue without "other" voices.

So, according to your guidelines, the subgroups that seek a forum to discuss issues without interruption from "other" voices (because so often those "other" voices are very silencing) now should STILL put up with the "others" and NOT disagree publicly? These subgroups must, yet again, refrain?

Really?

Here's a thought...
If one chooses to post in an "only" thread, it is THAT POSTER'S responsibility to read the entire thread and engage respectfully. It is NOT a space to claim or demand everyone dance to your tune.

Jess, I'm pissy about this, but I think your intentions are good. I also know from traveling the boards for awhile that I have learned a lot from reading the dialogue of disagreements. We've all seen minds and attitudes change. If we disallow arguments, then we lose a resource for analyzing ourselves.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by blush

Respectfully,

What's your point?
How are we NOT doing this already? You referenced in your post numerous threads where this is exactly what's going on. We ARE requesting dialogue without "other" voices.

So, according to your guidelines, the subgroups that seek a forum to discuss issues without interruption from "other" voices (because so often those "other" voices are very silencing) now should STILL put up with the "others" and NOT disagree publicly? These subgroups must, yet again, refrain?

Really?

Here's a thought...
If one chooses to post in an "only" thread, it is THAT POSTER'S responsibility to read the entire thread and engage respectfully. It is NOT a space to claim or demand everyone dance to your tune.

Wow .. Sorry you chose to read this that way. It's not what I am attempting to say at all.
Your tone sounds hostile and defensive simultaneously and apparently we may be speaking a different language.
I never suggested anyone "put up" with anything... Quite the opposite, actually.
At any rate.. really sorry my words obviously do not make themselves clear enough for your ears.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Jess

Wow .. Sorry you chose to read this that way. It's not what I am attempting to say at all.
Your tone sounds hostile and defensive simultaneously and apparently we may be speaking a different language.
I never suggested anyone "put up" with anything... Quite the opposite, actually.
At any rate.. really sorry my words obviously do not make themselves clear enough for your ears.

I agree, Jess, I did sound hostile and pissy. That's why I edited it a bit. You got the first edition.

Reconsider?

[Jess]

I appreciate your addition and on one hand agree that often arguments can be healthy discourse. I do still think there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying a space is exclusive, unless it is excluding the advancement of person or group of people.

I think that other groups or individuals can still learn quietly by observing and asking direct questions privately, without disrupting an entire thread.

Is it a woman's need to absolutely "include" or a weakness to fear "excluding"?

This is what I am trying to ascertain.

Thank you, blush.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

What about other threads on the websites that are age related? Like say someone posting in the 30's thread and they arent even in their 30's, would that be exclusion?

[blush]

Originally Posted by Jess

I appreciate your addition and on one hand agree that often arguments can be healthy discourse. I do still think there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying a space is exclusive, unless it is excluding the advancement of person or group of people.

I think that other groups or individuals can still learn quietly by observing and asking direct questions privately, without disrupting an entire thread.

Is it a woman's need to absolutely "include" or a weakness to fear "excluding"?

This is what I am trying to ascertain.

Thank you, blush.

I'm not sure who you're directing this question to? I can give you a woman's perspective, but many members of our transgendered community are not and never have been women. Perhaps their opinions/"take on things" may differ? Does that make sense?

As I read it, your question seems to give the "lesser of two evils." On the one hand, if I say I have to "include," then I have an absolute need for approval. If I say I fear "excluding" then I am weak. Could you clarify that?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Jess

Is it a woman's need to absolutely "include" or a weakness to fear "excluding"?

This is what I am trying to ascertain.

I'll answer this question for me, because of the way that it relates to the Dear Femme thread in that I have insisted repeatedly that I prefer not to close the discussion to femmes-only.

I have absolutely zero "need to absolutely 'include" or, more hideously, a woman's (dear me) "weakness to fear excluding." What I do have, is a sincere desire for masculine people to participate secondarily to the discussion should they feel so inclined, and to have meaningful dialogue whenever they do, around how and whether their words are supportive, or conversely, not supportive, in the event that they - consciously or not - hold up an old paradigm of masculine-over thinking or action. We are having this same discussion among ourselves - how we support this paradigm. It's why the thread was created.

See, only-spaces do not personally serve me. They very well may serve other people and I honor that. I don't wish to trample on them or their spaces. But good, honest, gritty dialogue is more important to me. I believe there is important work to be done in all of our spaces and that this work necessitates hard conversations between and among all of us.

When I see one group holding up bars for its only-space, I see how that group is failing to acknowledge that there are really no bars holding up the subtext of our identities. It's going to offend some folks that I just said that, "subtext of our identities," but a lot of what creates our identities are the linguistic structures we create. And language, while mind-blowingly huge in the whole of who we are as human, just ain't all there is, y'all.

A woman is shut out of women's only space because her kind of woman does not equal your kind of woman. A self-identified male is shut out of a query on classism put to female-identified butches only. Why? Because of an underlying need for togetherness? Because someone who linguistically created an identity around "male" does not experience classism in the same way that other butches do? For reasons that are internal? And I should close a discussion of the femme experience, why? Because no one else can have anything relevant to say to us about it?

I'm not going to call a girl's only club house because what's more important to me than whether I get my feelings hurt is whether or not I learn anything about you, me, us. What's more important to me than whether I chance being offended is whether I need to have my mind changed.

I see more people inflamed by the idea that we have difficult conversations than I do by the idea that we're not having enough of them. I wish more of us were willing to roll up our sleeves, tuck our hearts firmly back in our chests where they bloody well belong, and speak to one another about the things that matter, bravely and without reservation. We should, all of us, cease conflating "topic" with "individual."

[blush]

Originally Posted by Jess

Without trying to "step on toes" and also not trying to "tiptoe around a situation" I think there are simple ways we can make this happen without doing either. EX: A user has a discussion for "femmes".. go to femme zone, post it with disclaimer "for femmes only". That should be simple enough to respect. If someone other than a femme wishes to follow it, do so.. post a "thanks" for something they like, but refrain from commenting unless choosing to do so in private. This is of course, just suggestion. This could allow for private conversing without derailing threads or anyone feeling "silenced" or "invisible". It will possibly also allow the original conversation to flow on its intended course.

Jess, I misread this last night. I thought you were saying a subgroup should not "call someone out" publicly if they posted some asshat comment.