09-12-2013, 11:04 PM | #1 |
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For the Love of Intentions!!
Okay...once upon a time I was new here and I started a thread (which shall remain nameless) asking what I believed to be an innocent question. Some saw this thread as an opportunity to start a dialogue while others treated my thread with all the delicacy of a hungry lion attacking a gazelle.
Anyway, as I spend more time on this site, I notice other newbies falling into this same situation. A new person joins the board. A question is asked. It is quite obvious (at least to me) that the intention is to receive knowledge about a subject or get a different perspective. There is nothing in the thread to indicate this new person is trying to be a provocateur. Almost immediately, one or two of the responses are "Oh, you're in for an education about [insert topic here]." And then the "education" begins with the incredibly detailed picking apart of said question until it looks as though the intention was a purposeful yet thinly-veiled attack on lesbian/butch/femme/trans culture. Why is that? Is it really just me or does nobody look at intention? Are we all just sitting up in the trees like vultures waiting for the first opportunity for somebody to step one toe out an imaginary line of so-called decorum? Are we that over-sensitive? Being in the LBGT community already comes with enough doors being slammed in our faces for one reason or another. For some, boards like this are the last port in a storm for understanding and community. Is there a reason we so easily and sometimes vehemently turn on each other? I'd like to start an open discussion about this. Maybe unravel a few layers and go deeper into what could possibly be a much larger issue than what happens on this board.
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09-13-2013, 01:26 AM | #2 |
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This reminds me of something that my partner said the other day, i.e., that when you join a site like this one, you join with your own level of 'education', which in some cases, will be 'higher' than that of many others. Take U/us for example. He came out in the 70s when He was 17/18, whereas I didn't come out until 1999 when I was 40, so even in O/our case, we have a different level of 'education' when it comes to all things queer. (Example: it was only through watching a documentary on Disco the other night that I discovered - and remember here that I'm not from the States - that Disco was born in the States amongst the gay/black community. I'd never even thought of its origins before, never realized that Disco was initially some kind of political statement/movement.)
So I think that what happens is that in some cases, we - the collective we - respond in not so nice/patient a manner one, because we've simply lost sight of the fact that we're all at different levels in terms of our 'education', or two, because we're simply bored with answering the same questions/discussing the same topics over and over again. I certainly know from personal experience that the more I'm 'around' the Planet, the harder it is to find threads that interest me because in a lot of cases, they deal with issues that have already been discussed to death, either here or elsewhere. However, I am aware of the fact that for a lot of other people, these are new topics and threads from which they can learn something so I basically have two choices, one, to find other ways to amuse/stimulate myself (easy option), or two, to open discussions relating to topics that to me, are still valid/important/interesting (slightly harder option). What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like you've done here). Hope that makes sense. Words Last edited by Words; 09-13-2013 at 01:30 AM. |
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09-13-2013, 05:02 AM | #3 |
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Maybe that's why they've changed the rule on starting new threads, (having so many posts before doing so) so that people can get a feel for things or realize there is already a thread out there for what they want. (multiple threads on the same subject bothers me a great deal!)
But i have seen this happen (to me ! ) when asking questions in a discussion. i asked a question and then there was a mild attack, then a person of reason wrote in an informative manner and i truly got educated. We have also disingenuous folks starting threads for some crazy reasons, same reason an arsonist starts a fire and watches it burn. One person made us the subject of a project she was working on at school So we may be a bit defensive sometimes. i try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume the person really just wants to know. in my lifestyle (leather) many folks are curious and thats all good as long as they present themselves in a a respectful manner i am always willing to answer questions but that usually comes in private. Nice thread! |
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09-13-2013, 07:22 AM | #4 |
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I think people challenge ideas not the people posting the ideas. Everybody has a reaction, some will challenge back, some will golden flounce, some will retreat and never be heard from again, some will hold on to it for a long, long time, and some will deflect defensively and take it personally.
I don't think people get attacked, and I certainly don't think it is worthy of painting it in such a manner that it depicts community members like animals. We all end up in the hot seat, including me. Anybody remember the tap thread? I felt many things but never once thought I was being attacked. When people post words like "attacked", "bullied", "clique", "piled" on I tend to tune out due to the self victimization that coils around that pattern. If posts continually insinuate racist, sexist, sizeist, or any isms, I may or may not, but probably will, question intent. If assuming a posters intent behind an idea is not ok then why is it ok to assume what space a poster is posting from?? Are you on the other side of the computer with them? Do you speak to them in real time and know what emotional space they are posting from? General you!!!
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09-13-2013, 12:26 PM | #5 | |
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My intention in starting this post is to figure out what it is about certain posts that trigger what looks like an attack or a written "rolling-of-eyes" so-to-speak. I think what Words and girl_dee said does answer the question quite well (or part of it anyway). The reason for the behavior I mentioned above is, from what I understand:
Okay, that clears things up a bit. Maybe some could just try to be more aware (as Words suggested) that everyone is at their own different level of education. Perhaps, instead of looking things up online, they need interaction and community to learn. Everybody learns differently and everybody has a different life experience. As far as comparing people to animals, that's not literal. Of course I don't think anyone here is an actual vulture. It's an analogy. Vultures pick things apart in a rather painful way. I was painting a picture with words. I'm a writer. That's how my brain works. It wasn't meant to be offensive but to give perspective to how someone on the other end of some of these less-than-welcoming responses might feel. I'm off for the weekend so I won't be able to check this thread but I hope the discussion continues. Maybe it will prompt a deeper look within for some to find out just where some of those 'hair-triggers' might be coming from. I'm no saint and am quite guilty of going off on people if they push my buttons. Because of that, I'm always looking within so I don't end up in that dreaded victim mentality.
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09-13-2013, 01:12 PM | #6 | |
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What I meant was, ''What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like YOU'VE done the work here). In other words, I was commending, not criticizing. Make sense now? Words |
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09-13-2013, 06:25 PM | #7 | |
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"Doing the work", means a person working through their privileges, isms, etc.
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09-13-2013, 07:10 PM | #8 |
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09-13-2013, 07:11 PM | #9 |
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Sorry, Words. I should have kept my nose out of it.
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09-13-2013, 08:37 PM | #10 | |
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Ohhh the Tap thread, long time ago but yes i remember. For me when it happens to me, and more so when i was new to the forums, it felt like a personal attack to *me*. i am glad to know that's not true for some others. Hey i'm not saying i didn't learn anything, but the process felt harsh to me. One thing that is missing from the written word is tone. It's hard to read tone and i admit that i am one that takes things personal. My words sometimes don't reflect my feelings/thoughts. Once i meet someone we can read each other completely different on the forums. If something i said is up for challenge, it feels personal to me. i am working on this. i want to assume the person has a good intention, instead i am guilty of taking it personal and getting defensive. Character flaw. . |
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09-14-2013, 10:18 AM | #11 |
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I think much of this behavior has to do with people not being willing to look at another person's perspective and understand it. You see through your own glass, and you can't take them off and look through someone else's for a moment.
Take the word "Southern" for example. For me, this word conjures memories of my grandparents, the patchwork quilt of land going by as we drove to them, summers in Georgia spent picking fresh blackberries and making them into pies, stuffing myself with cornbread and delicious food, generous hospitality and impeccable manners. For others, this conjures up memories of a time when the military had to be present just to let a little black girl walk into school. Or how a group of evil parents in Mississippi decided to hold a completely separate prom just so the lesbian wouldn't be invited. One is not right or wrong, they are all true, just a matter of individual perspective. But I have seen this word picked apart in so many threads, like we can all just assume it has only one meaning. I myself have not experienced the behavior described above, that I can recall, but I am also pretty good at defending my words and thoughts. I can certainly remember times where I felt someone who maybe just wasn't very good with words appeared to be pummeled into submission (so to speak), where even though I may not have agreed with them, I felt sorry for them. I have no qualms calling out racism, homophobia, etc. but I try to do so in a way that will engage the offender and help them come to some rational conclusion on their own, rather than trying to force my own way of thinking. But I guess I put a lot more faith in the Socratic method than the soapbox.
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09-14-2013, 11:16 AM | #12 | |
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Well stated. Thanks. |
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09-14-2013, 07:36 PM | #13 | |
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09-14-2013, 09:21 PM | #14 |
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Yeah, what Jagg said, I agree. I've read it in threads too. *shrugs*
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09-14-2013, 10:39 PM | #15 | |
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Sometimes it's as if I feel the need to draw a very permanent line in the sand, one that I either stand on one side of or the other (no straddling allowed) and I end up losing sight of precisely what Diva stated. Neither is right or wrong, yet both are true to the individual. Perhaps what it boils down to for many of us is trigger issues. I know certain topics absolutely push my buttons faster and stronger than others, and I can jump down someone's throat quicker than the time it would take to put a well thought-out, cohesive statement together. I dare say that if we don't give this issue some careful attention, it could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back. |
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09-15-2013, 08:04 AM | #16 |
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Novela, I think you are right. We are a small community, and if we can't start trying to bridge our differences, then we will be just as divided as the US political system.
I'm not saying we tolerate blatant racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, etc., but that we try to engage to get to the root of it, rather than force people out of the conversation. Through a series of conversations and questions, I once got an 80-year-old Georgia woman to say, "You know you're right, those people really aren't any different from us. They were just born with different colors of skin." If she could change at that age, I believe anyone can. But when we attack rather than try to get them to clarify, we only reinforce their opinions and end up accomplishing nothing.
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09-15-2013, 04:12 PM | #17 |
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This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.
I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward. I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently. Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice. I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations. Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!
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09-15-2013, 08:43 PM | #18 |
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*beams* Just got back from my weekend away and am so happy to see how this thread is turning out. I think we've got a great discussion going on here!
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09-16-2013, 08:10 AM | #19 | ||||||
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09-16-2013, 01:32 PM | #20 |
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I have so many thoughts around this.
Couple of things: Does dogpiling happen? Yep. Do folks sometimes say stupid shit and then get all defensive about it when people call them out on it? Yep. Can we *all* do a better job of listening before we react? Yep. A couple of things I have observed about perception in my years in this particular B/F/T community (going on 14 years now) is that 2 things seem to happen with regularity. 1. Someone says something stupid, gets called out on it, defends it, gets called out by more folks, defends it even more and messier, folks get pissed at one another, someone is a "bully", a member of a "clique", or a "gang", and before you know it, sides are taken and the whole thing is a hot mess. 2. Someone says something stupid, someone gets really pissed about it and calls them out in a shitty way, the person is truly sorry about it and owns that they should have thought about it more, the mad person won't let it go, sides get taken again and the whole thing is a hot mess. The really frustrating thing that has happened in the past several times is that this has sometimes escalated to "The Space" somehow becoming responsible for what an individual said. Who has the responsibility in a situation like this: New member comes to the site, identifies as a Femme, starts a thread entitled "Where are all the rich Butches?!" and proceeds to post about how they are tired of encountering Butches who don't have jobs or live with their Momma. What if someone feels like they are being really classist and says, "Hey, maybe money isn't the most important thing in the world! I think you are really missing out on some good people because you are being super classist about this and shallow" Commence argument. I think some of the frustration I have seen comes when folks seem unwilling to examine their privileges or narrow-minded idealism. This is not to say that folks don't get to have desires. I'm all for that! But what if their desire is couched in denigrating other people's ways of being? (Thinking about how discussions on loving BBW Femmes often includes sizist anti-thin comments or how discussions about Butches often has commentary around "eeewwwwwwwww" for Butches who date other Butches) There is another component here that I'd like to mention around intent. Some folks have been around a long, long time and have finely-honed bullshit detectors. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing when folks call bullshit on a brand new person showing up on the site, getting super familiar with lots of folks, claiming to be a millionaire a doctor or a pilot, and having several different weird stories around their life that don't add up. Why? Because it's happened 100 times. So are some folks jaded? You bet your ass.
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