Third or Other Gender Butch

[Jett]

Third or Other Genders have existed in recorded history as long as woman and man. Genders which fall between the two more recognized and common genders, gender which is not simply one or the other but usually more apt to be felt as both. I'm not surprised to see a lot of butches who embrace their third gender, though third gender runs the gamut of sexes and sexual orientations, it seems only logical.

I think in life (and sometimes even B-F communities), we often experience a unique difficulty to find a place when third gender is not among the accepted "check one of the two boxes" ready made answers of society. Even internally our own grasp of gender growing up is a byproduct of that binary society so still for some it can take a longer time in understanding or acceptance of it... or even explaining oneself where everyone wants to know "are you he or she?" (I've just replied for years, pronouns don't squick me either way).

But anyway, one simple and also best descriptive and fav things I've heard is, "You have the expressive heart of a female, but instrumental mind of a male"... though it's clearly it's all coming from the mind, it feels right as I feel as both male and female within*.

Ok, as we know, gender is between the ears not the legs**... for myself I'm speaking of being both genders between the ears, as a person who is full of, accepts and embraces both. For all intents and purposes in life I'm just me. I don't wear Tee-shirts with third gender symbols nor am I involved in any big movements... I'm just not a big political person and honestly I never talk about this stuff real life and I'm not really into labels... but I'm curious about others who may feel similar to me.

With that, I hope to hear some others stories or thoughts on it.

Peace,
Metropolis

*To quell misunderstanding beforehand... I'm referring to mind here, not clothing etc. which for me I have only male clothing, mannerisms etc.

**Though gender is of the mind, it's expressed outwardly in clothing, mannerisms etc. and sometimes body modification, it's almost a rule that "out" Third gendered people tend to express gender consistently in the opposite clothing to birth sex and bodies may be modified to fall more in line with the dual nature of our minds... IE: binding without the desire to consistently to pass as male etc.

(I've also heard of femmes who feel other gendered, but as butches seem to be a specific subset of Third Gender with many commonalities I've put this in the Butch Zone but would enjoy seeing a thread explaining how those femmes may experience and express other genders.)

[DapperButch]

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread.

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

[DapperButch]

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.

[AtLast]

I think I fit somewhere in other , biologically, as a female-bodied butch. Which is comfortable for me. My gender remains female, however, I have a difficult time with the traditional binary as it is too constraining for everyone. 3rd-gendered is something I have to give a lot of credence to.

I think that my being lesbian might relate to my choosing to refer to myself as female in terms of gender (it is just an interwoven state of being for me). Been thinking a lot about this and just know that part of my identification as female has to do with my absolute connection to female to female bodied sexuality. No, these are not the same (gender/sexuality), but for me they are very personally interrelated.

Being a more masculine female and the processes and dynamics of being with another female (of the femme variety, which includes a range), is simply hot and satisfying, sexually and in everyday interactions of being relational. I love how my being a female-bodied butch is appreciated by a femme partner.

I absolutely support every personal distinction of gender (and queerness) that comes out of this community. Yanno... that diversity thang! And I so wish that gender fluidity and the multi-dimensional nature of both gender and sexuality would just become the norm!

Taking stock in cross-cultural perspectives of both gender and sexuality has been the most freeing experience for me as a butch and a human being. So much in US/Western thought (other than Native American explanations and spirituality) simply doesn't fit for me … and a whole hell of a lot of other people!

Finding peace, balance and harmony with all of this is paramount for me. Then, again, that is what I always seek in life.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread.

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap...

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.

Originally Posted by Dapperbutch

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.

Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

[Jess]

Just my personal observations along my journey:


In the 80's, the big thing for "most" ( not all) lesbians/ queer women/ dykes was to be androgynous.

Main Entry: an·drog·y·nous
Pronunciation: \an-ˈdrä-jə-nəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin androgynus hermaphrodite, from Greek androgynos, from andr- + gynē woman — more at queen
Date: 1651
1 : having the characteristics or nature of both male and female
2 a : neither specifically feminine nor masculine <the androgynous pronoun them> b : suitable to or for either sex <androgynous clothing>
3 : having traditional male and female roles obscured or reversed <an androgynous marriage>
— an·drog·y·nous·ly adverb
— an·drog·y·ny \-nē\ noun


Then, it seemed a "reclaiming" of the Butch-femme dynamic surfaced in the mid to late 90's. Greatly visible at first in the Leather community(this was also about the same time BDSM enthusiasts became such a "trend" so it makes sense) , where Butch and Femme never really died out. Along with this resurfacing came drag kings as a phenom and the popularity of our b-f websites exploded.

Transsexual folks came out more and more gaining acceptance ( not always, of course but moreso than ever in the past) and the terms transgendered and genderqueer and genderfuct became hot words in our community.

In the last 20- 25 years along "our" evolution we have been knocking down walls so hard and fast it is hard for us to even keep up with our own sledgehammers.

We have had threads/ discussions/ arguments about inclusion, definition, gender theory, binary alignment, antiquated terminology. These discussions may go on forever, LOL! I see them as necessary for anyone going along a path that veers from any "norm" that society has perpetuated.

Most of my life I have felt other. There are times when I thought I would transition. I still am not completely comfortable in my own skin, however I am more aligned to the natural fluctuation of energies or mentalities that occur within me than I am in making a surgical/ chemical change. I am never faced with whom I think should be in my mirror. Sometimes it is distressing, sometimes it is kinda fun.Sometimes, I think I just spend way too much time thinking about it instead of just "being".

Good topic. I am more comfortable discussing this here than the "female/ woman identified butch" thread. I don't know why. This just seems a more natural discussion and for some reason less re-hashing.

A great many science fiction stories speak of a time when the human race becomes androgynous or even asexual. It is interesting to see the great number of folks speaking to feeling "other gendered".

Thanks Metropolis!

[Jett]

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

[Daywalker]

A quick note, as I subscribe to read more:


As far back as I can remember, I have always viewed my gender through
my mind and spirit...not through my body. For life moments when the physical
me is called up, such as intimacy...well, my 'pleasure zones' are where they
are (gawd I hope this is gonna make sense) kinda like a belly button. Some have
'inn-ees' and some have 'out-ees'. My 'zones' have been physically assigned
as an 'inn-ee', but still...I do not relate to being female...or male.


Will I utilize these zones and not get uncomfortable? Yes. Because I still
do not connect with my physical being as a gender. This is not a denial,
this is not due to an adverse experience, this is not due to anything...other
than my mind and spirit being content, and it just feels as though this
has been my natural state of being, even as a child.


My attraction and preference has always been a natural state for me
as well...in that it has only been for women. I am sure there are folks
who relate just as I do, that have a natural attraction for their opposite
sex. Another perspective that I was privy to growing up...that sexual
preference is not defined by gender identification.


I'd like to read along and jump in here and there,
but of course...first I'd like to thank Met for starting this thread.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I don't know if you are repeating yourself, but I know I said the same thing (so maybe I repeated you, first!)

Yes, I have always seen the MAIN definition of third gendered as a person who does not define as a man or as a woman...that is my understanding as to where the term came from/the purpose of the term.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I don't know if you are repeating yourself, but I know I said the same thing (so maybe I repeated you, first!)

Yes, I have always seen the MAIN definition of third gendered as a person who does not define as a man or as a woman...that is my understanding as to where the term came from/the purpose of the term.

Ha yep... you did. Anyway I guess in that it has a fairly distinct meaning, of course being relative to the individual how that plays out and specific details.

So I suppose in my own head (on whether it's TG or not) is that it depends on the person. Kind of like genderqueer, TG seems a fairly umbrella term.

I have identified as TG in the past, but I've found that peeps assume I want to be recognized as a man by doing so. So maybe the only reason I don't now is because Third Gender (or Other etc.) seems to be a clearer definition of the specific gender for me.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".


Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I guess my thoughts on whether it's TG are, in a nutshell, that depends on the person. Kind of like genderqueer, TG seems a fairly umbrella term and depending on how one experiences third gender they may or may not feel the need to use it.

I have identified as TG in the past, but I've found that peeps assume I want to be recognized as a man by doing so. So maybe the only reason I don't now is because Third Gender (or Other etc.) seems to be a clearer definition of the specific gender for me.

Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say that using TG (TG Butch, I assume you meant, maybe?, not just TG?), creates a thinking in people that you see yourself as a man or maybe male. This has been my concern by using this label myself. People have moved away from the term transsexual it seems, and transgender is often used in place (even though the first defines a person as viewing themselves as the opposite sex, and the other has been defined as an umbrella term, which are two different things, obviously).

I use the TG Butch label b/c I guess I want to get across the "not male and not female"/"male and female" identity. Third gendered to me just means not a man and not a woman, so that does not seem to be enough (for me). Make sense?

I actually wrote on the dash site, maybe a couple of years ago, my frustration in there not being a term to describe my type of butch, as TG Butch was really misleading (due to how transgender is commonly assumed to mean transsexual nowadays), but since I have found nothing else, I have stuck with it.

Sorry if the above was confusing...I was just rambling out some thoughts, here...

Side note: Similarly, I use but, really don't like, the pronoun "hy". But since I am in the middle, "he", nor "she" fits, so I feel stuck with it! lol

[Gryph]

I go by two-spirit as a way of denoting my gender. I am the best and worst of both(in our binary world) in one body. Pronouns to me don't matter, I will and do answer to both he and she and not think anything of it, that is part of being two-spirit.

I came to the conclusion years ago that I kind of like this body and I have no need to bind or anything like that. Besides it would be a bit hard, my tits are rather ample, its a family trait. So I dress in male clothes, except for the sports bras that I wear for work and other then winter, I keep my hair fairly short. A quick look and I get tagged as a butch all the time, which is not a big deal for me.

[AtLast]

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual.But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

[Darth Denkay]

Hey all,

So glad to see this thread started. It's 12:30 in the morning so I gotta get some sleep but will definitely be back. Really looking forward to what we can do here. Thanks Met!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Hey all,

So glad to see this thread started. It's 12:30 in the morning so I gotta get some sleep but will definitely be back. Really looking forward to what we can do here. Thanks Met!

Hey, Kayden!

Glad you will be joining the third/other gendered thread!

It is nice that a thread was started for this group of butches and/or for discussion around this type of butch!

What a brilliant thread.

I identify with much that has already said by folks who can say it far more eloquently than I.

My mum used to tell me that from the age of 6yrs I was espousing that I wasn't a boy or a girl but something else entirely. In latter years upon discovering the bf community and a whole load of 'new labels' I appropriated the term 'genderqueer' for myself but it still doesn't sit quite right somehow.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.


Dylan

[Jett]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say that using TG (TG Butch, I assume you meant, maybe?, not just TG?), creates a thinking in people that you see yourself as a man or maybe male. This has been my concern by using this label myself. People have moved away from the term transsexual it seems, and transgender is often used in place (even though the first defines a person as viewing themselves as the opposite sex, and the other has been defined as an umbrella term, which are two different things, obviously).

I use the TG Butch label b/c I guess I want to get across the "not male and not female"/"male and female" identity. Third gendered to me just means not a man and not a woman, so that does not seem to be enough (for me). Make sense?

I actually wrote on the dash site, maybe a couple of years ago, my frustration in there not being a term to describe my type of butch, as TG Butch was really misleading (due to how transgender is commonly assumed to mean transsexual nowadays), but since I have found nothing else, I have stuck with it.

Sorry if the above was confusing...I was just rambling out some thoughts, here...

Side note: Similarly, I use but, really don't like, the pronoun "hy". But since I am in the middle, "he", nor "she" fits, so I feel stuck with it! lol

Yep, I meant TG in the butch context...

3rd Gender is vague, yep same difficulties there myself. I had a thread mid last year and I must have wrote a novelette and was never happy with the terms used to describe it though I probably used 10 at least... lol.

Pretty much I'm using 3G here because it's a at least close descriptor at a "glance" yet open for many to join the convo. It's kind of funny though b/c I'm wayyyyy not into labeling myself... and do love "just being". Yet, I think just as women and men have those designations of gender as an internal "I'm a", or just a "knowing" as a given, - one of a different gender simply desires to name that too, that strong essence that drives so much of who we are as humans.

That in which most others just have a "place" and probably take for granted how important being recognized in that is, even if just in oneself.

Ok, now I may be rambling a bit myself...

Anyway, I think one of the problems for me as "other" is looking for a word that really narrows it, but I'm thinking even for those who actually are "woman" or "man" those words aren't fully telling. So I think for myself something fairly open like GQ probably is the most fitting without needing to get specific.

*An aside for those wincing as I'm sure it sometimes sounds a lot like conflating sex and gender in the thread (I'm wincing a bit too). But it's not really, just hard with the perimeters of a binary language (and I would say there's is a gender and mental sex connect just no rule). Maybe the best way to put it (for myself) is in relating yes, to some TG's who feel as not as a man- yet male... it's very similar for me, not a woman, not a man- yet male/female.*

Oh and welcome to everybody who's joined the conversation *thumbs up*

Metropolis

[Jett]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

Yeah I'm not quite getting this.

Because of "butch" direction of this thread TG is being used in that masculine context more often sure... in this conversation.

That was in no way represents TG as a whole.

When I said I don't use it because it tends to make some believe I feel male, that was meant in a butch related context only, that my being known as female bodied peeps assume when I label TG that I'm saying I'm male minded.

If I was male bodied and said it some peeps would automatically think I was saying I was female minded.

That's the prob for me... peeps wrapped up in an either or binary... not with the term TG... which is a non binary term.