11-03-2011, 06:45 PM | #61 | |||
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Btw. in case there's anyone lingering that thinks it would be a good idea to have direct democracy consider that every single time an anti-gay marriage measure has been on the *ballot* (instead of in the legislature) it has been passed. Every. Single. Time. Quote:
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Cheers Aj
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11-03-2011, 07:00 PM | #62 |
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I don't get it, if I'm not an American than what am I? There are so many descriptors of what an American is that I don't see how my being one is any different that some one from Latin America. We're still Americans. Personally I'm from Turtle Island but thats another thread.
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11-03-2011, 07:14 PM | #63 |
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Wait. Aren't North America and South America two different continents? That's what I was taught in elementary school - has something changed in the last 30 years that I'm unaware of?
North America, South America, Africa, Australia, Europe, Asia, Antarctica. Right? So all people from Canada, the US, Mexico, all the countries in Central America, and the Caribbean countries are all North Americans. Not Americans. If the continent is called NORTH America - why not North Americans? Unless of course North and South America are the same continent now and I didn't get the memo. Which is possible. I hate georgraphy. I don't even know where Mississippi is.
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11-03-2011, 07:34 PM | #64 | |
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cheers Aj
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11-03-2011, 07:38 PM | #65 | |
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But still - how many continents are there these days? ETA - so when all of North America merges into one country...what are we going to do about that whole "The US doesn't like Cuba" thing? If we're all one country, how can we best prevent (former) USians from vacationing in (former) Cuba? I suggest wristbands. So then (former) USians can be like underage people at a concert.
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11-03-2011, 08:04 PM | #66 | ||
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Cheers Aj
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11-03-2011, 08:19 PM | #67 |
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FYI, not all Canadians are happy about being her "Majesty's" subject...
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11-03-2011, 08:32 PM | #68 | |
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Cuba is interesting. It's like a failed experiment that has enough triumphs that people may not notice that it's failed. Their education and health care systems, for example, are exceptional (Cubans are living longer than Americans). Environmentally (you know, not destroying the planet) they are also ahead of the game. I have mixed feelings when people say that people in Cuba live in poverty because they don't have all the fancy toys and crazy giant houses that some people think of as markers of wealth - since everybody has pretty much the same things and their basic needs really -are- being met (which is more than I can say for people living in poverty in either of our countries) I tend to not think of Cubans as "poor". People not actually owning the houses that they live in in Cuba is less of a concern to me than people living on the streets in Vancouver. I do wish that there was a way that they could continue with everybody getting their needs met...without all of the awful shit that has also gone along with it. Can't everybody have a similar quality of life without all the spying/lack of privacy? Can't everybody have access to healthcare and live long lives there without a rigged game judicial system? I don't understand why it's not possible to keep the things that are fair and do away with the things that are grievously unfair.
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11-03-2011, 08:47 PM | #69 | |
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I, personally, am from the "I don't really give a shit, since it's just symbolic and the existence of the Monarchy in absolutely no way effects Canada either way" camp (unless the Queen or the Governor General have been refusing to sign bills into law that they don't like and I am not aware of it - which I highly doubt.) It's part of what makes Canada. Our ties to GB is likely one of the things that made Canada go in one direction (we prefer evolutionary change of how things are done) while the US has a history that favours more revolution. We would likely be a different country than the one we turned out to be - and I like the country we are.
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11-03-2011, 09:26 PM | #70 | |
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The reason it *never* works is that, well, people have self-interest. Let's say I run an egg farm. I have no incentive to produce more eggs than my quota requires. If I do, I'm not getting paid any extra since I'm paid a fixed amount for a fixed amount and I can't *sell* them because that would be a class-crime because I would then be trying to turn a profit. However, because everyone *else* is in the same boat, there's shortages because no one has any incentive to produce surplus. It literally profits them not at all. Not officially. However, there are perverse incentives to produce a *little* above quota to sell on the black market. If I have 3 dozen eggs and only need two, maybe I sell my surplus eggs for some coffee. I love coffee. Now, as long as I don't get caught all should be well. But then I get caught. Well, since the cop is in the same position as the rest of us, maybe there's something I can offer her to show my appreciation for the protection she gives to the People. So now I have a little thing going on the side with the cop and the coffee supplier. Black markets will pop up in any situation where there is scarcity imposed if it is at all possible. Even in North Korea where the control is probably as absolute as has been achieved has thriving black markets. Even though they are seriously illegal. So in order to prevent the first crime--making extra eggs at all--there has to be strict monitoring of what happens on the collective farms. Well, who will watch the watchers? So you have informants who might get little perks for their dedication to the cause of the People. Now you have a police state. It is simply *impossible* to prevent people from pursuing their own self-interest no matter how ideologically unsound it might be. With all that I whole good, true and sacred I wish it weren't this way but it is. Cheers Aj
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11-03-2011, 09:32 PM | #71 | |
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Cheers Aj
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11-03-2011, 09:45 PM | #72 | ||
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I do think that part of our leg up on you is our French population. Being a country that was formed basically by merging some French settlements with English settlements - we had to learn early on to compromise and work towards solutions that are for the greater good for the whole. We're kind of a country that was FORMED on the principle of give and take, you know? ETA - and if you all had stuck it out until after WWII then it would have saved you guys from getting DC burned down and us from getting Toronto burned down. Thanks a lot.
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11-03-2011, 10:19 PM | #73 | |
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Hello - I snipped the above quote out. I lived in Maine in 2006. There was a ballot initative to include LGBT folks in civil rights protections for housing, education, accomidations and banking. This ballot initiative passed. It took literally 20 years of work - and it was denied at least 2x, but it passed in the end via a ballot. I think its super important to include the few times LGBT folks and allies have succeeded in winning protections. ADG
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11-03-2011, 11:32 PM | #74 |
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Need to read more in this thread, however here is some ideas to throw out there and ponder with this perfect society where we can have people agree on principles.
I wouldn't say Russia and Germany are experiencing the most peace since the height of the Roman Empire.. If anything it's under raps. Considering history repeats itself, Nazism is still ongoing and growing again. All the support for Syria and all I have to say is Al Qaeda. If all the latin countries united together, the citizens would all battle and kill each other. Let's not forget the Indigenous Australians, the Aborigines. They are thinking of adding them as a whole new race. They are some of the first inhabitants according to some. Whether they are in the U.S. Or Australia or wherever, add them to the melting pot. What do you do with them now? Violence is down in the U.S. Could it be because all the fighting is in other countries where our military is deployed? And what is considered violence? It could have different meanings to different people. If American spies are found or a U.S. Citizen kills someone in another country, more than likely they get death right then and there, no questions asked. If an immigrant or even an alien comes to the U.S., breaks the law or murders an American on American soil, they get thrown in prison or sent back to their country. I think the social hierarchy has always existed in every country throughout the world. The world and the U.S. still has slavery. In my opinion there will never be fair justice. Something or someone will inevitably change. Change is constant and ongoing with people not being happy for one reason or another and feeling something isn't fair for someone. People agreeing on rules and laws, that will never happen. Hence, voting on amendments, petitions, additions to laws. I won't even talk about religion. No one country or even within a country agrees with that one. |
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11-04-2011, 12:32 AM | #75 |
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"This is why, when talking about any of the truly utopian ideas that people still flirt with, I always say 'great idea, wrong species'. "Marxism, socialism, libertarianism and anarchy are all, on paper, fantastic ideas and with some other species they would be intuitively obvious and work. If ants or bees could talk they would find Marxism and socialism self-evident."
So why present theories on justice and describe systems of thought that tilt towards Utopian design? And other species already do largely exist in a state of checks and balances guided by "peacekeepers" like the Woodland Fungus that I posted a September 20, 2011, Science Daily article about in the biomimicry thread today: "Likening what happens in woodlands to the popular Nintendo Wii game, Spore Wars, Ph.D student Tom Crowther's study has just been published in the international journal Ecology Letters. His findings reveal that, by feeding on the most combative fungi, invertebrates ensure that less competitive species are not entirely destroyed or digested." So where is that intervening force in the human race or in our communities? Where is the tolerance and in fact protection of "less competitive" voices - a tolerance and protection that Rawls' or any good judicial system must in fact be predicated upon? And as we live now in the age of seven billion (thank you for the post on this, AJ), with nine billion looming closer than we think, and in a world of dwindling resources, how will any system of thought, any societal structure that rewards competition, hierarchies and hegemonies play out? I think we know. And I think some part of us imagines we are heading for a time of brutal realities and choices with no hope of Utopian systems of thought, however worthy or even practical they seem in theory, let alone in praxis. And I think that scares the stuffing out of us. As well it should. |
11-04-2011, 07:01 AM | #76 | |||||||||||||
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There's only a handful of nations that still use the death penalty and I can think of three instances, within the last 24 months, of Americans caught in nations who were not subject to summary execution. That woman in Italy who just came home, those hikers in Iran and some journalists in North Korea. Quote:
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Slavery ended in the United States in 1865. It was made illegal by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution which are, last I checked, still in force. Maybe OTHER black people are sanguine about people pulling out slavery and saying it is still in force today but I'm not. I honor my ancestors and like a number of Jews I know who get completely pissed off when people compare this or that injustice to the Holocaust when there's no death camps, no masses of civilians being taken to gas chambers, no roving squads of soldiers rounding up random civilians and shooting them right then and there in the streets, I get pissed off when people mistake whatever injustice they are exercised about with legal slavery. Btw. why is it that so few people can see improvement? Can someone explain to me why the fact that 10,000 murders < 15,000 murders doesn't register with people as improvement? I get the feeling--I may be wrong--that if the United States got down to one murder a year, people would STILL say "there's still murder, nothing at all has changed!" I don't understand it. Two people on this thread have all but said that and I don't get it. What part of a decrease in violent crimes, while still staying above zero isn't improvement? Quote:
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Cheers Aj
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11-04-2011, 08:07 AM | #77 |
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cause all Latinos hate one another so if they get together as one they'd kill one another? Really!?
Oh brother.. I also think that the sex trade enslavement of children and women in this world exists I think for us to have a Utopia you'd have to wipe a lot of shit from this world and start all over cause humans can't help themselves. "all forms of slavery or practices similar to slavery, such as the sale and trafficking of children, debt bondage and serfdom and forced or compulsory labor, including forced or compulsory recruitment of children for use in armed conflict;" "the use, procuring or offering of a child for prostitution, for the production of pornography or for pornographic performances;" "the use, procuring or offering of a child for illicit activities, in particular for the production and trafficking of drugs as defined in the relevant international treaties;" and "work which, by its nature or the circumstances in which it is carried out, is likely to harm the health, safety or morals of children."
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11-04-2011, 08:23 AM | #78 |
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an estimated 27 million people are enslaved globally, more than at any other time previously;
thousands annually trafficked in America in over 90 cities; around 17,000 by some estimates and up to 50,000 according to the CIA, either from abroad or affecting US citizens or residents as forced labor or sexual servitude; the global market value is over $9.5 billion annually, according to Mark Taylor, senior coordinator for the State Department's Office to Monitor; victims are often women and children; the majority are in India and African countries; slavery is illegal but happens "everywhere;" slaves work in agriculture, homes, mines, restaurants, brothels, or wherever traffickers can employ them; they're cheap, plentiful, disposable, and replaceable; "$90 is the average cost of a human slave around the world" compared to the 1850 $40,000 equivalent in today's dollars; common terminology includes debt bondage, bonded labor, attached labor, restavec (or de facto bondage for Haitian children sent to households of strangers), forced labor, indentured servitude, and human trafficking; explosive population growth, mostly to urban centers without safety net or job security protections, facilitates the practice; and government corruption, lack of monitoring, and indifference does as well.
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11-04-2011, 08:31 AM | #79 |
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I have comments to make all around, I had quoted so many posts, this was endless, so here goes sans quotes.
I have a huge problem with us saying that if the nations to our South united they would kill each other. To me, that sounds pretty racist. I also have a problem with us making fun of the fact that it bothers other Americans living in countries on the American continent that the US insists that only we as US citizens are American. Corkey, not talking about you, we agree on this. All of us are American. People live in South America, people who think we are ass hats for insisting we are the only Americans. Bete, yes North and South America. However, like Eurasia, North and South America are connected. Some people separate them, some don't. I am fine with using the terms North Americans and South Americans. I know our calling ourselves Americans will not change, especially when the most intelligent among us are not even willing to think about how it might feel to an average person living in South America to be told only US citizens are American... Again, to say or agree that people in South America would kill each other of they united makes my head want to explode. Do y'all really think we are so superior??? Becasue that is what it sounds like. Using the longitude is cute...but very sarcastically dismissive. Love and respect you guys, but maybe I have not had enough coffee to find this amusing. When you have been and spent time in South America, maybe you will see how small this seems.
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11-04-2011, 08:33 AM | #80 | |
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