Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

[Semantics]

Here's some advice: when you're going to copy and paste posts from other forums don't pick the ones posted by users named things like "Anonymous Coward". A username like that is probably a good indicator that their posts might be offensive or ignorant.

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Me: Cut off all aid

I think it's silly that people are now getting all assy about the billions of aid we send them because of Osama bin Laden. How about before we knew he was there? All of those human rights violations weren't enough to stop the aid? That's some weird logic.

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Withdraw all troops.

We only have a handful of troops there and they'd be happy to see us leave.

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Let whichever enemies they have do whatever.

I'm not sure why you think they need us so badly. They have nuclear weapons and they also have one of the largest militaries in the world.

Don't forget (or, I'm not sure you ever knew this), but they let us carry out military operations in their country. We need them a lot more than they need us.

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.

Telling people to leave the country and go live elsewhere is so 2004.

If that's all you've got (other than to blow you), I'm not going to put much effort into reasoning with you.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.

Pop,

With all due respect, I find this spewing of anger so offensive on so many different levels.

I am one of those Americans who is very concerned with the path our leaders are taking us down. I am not one of those linear thinkers who falls for "my country right or wrong".

One of the greast things about this country and the people who comprise it, is our ability and freedom to look at things. to question things, to struggle with the grey areas involved in the decisions that are made and the ways in which it impacts on our lives and the lives of others in the world.

We may have better lives by our standards than others but we also have a society that put profits above all else. Profit above people, profit above health care, profit above equality, profit above <insert choice here>.

And when we seek to impose our ideals, our beliefs, our ways on others there are consequences to bear. "Terrorist groups" arent created in a vacuum. They come about from oppression from within and without.

There is a ever growing grey area in my mind as to the motivations and methods that are being used in the world today, on both a micro and macro scale, and national and international level.

This grey area didnt materialize without a reason. The reason is some stuff just doesnt make sense. Those with power, the media, whoever can put a good marketing spin on things but when there is an absence of logic and reason and truth.....hopefully one struggles with the reality, rather than accepting it unquestioned.

Hate and fear are very unpleasant things that become manifested in very unpleasant ways. You dont stop it by becoming part of it. You stop it by stepping outside of it.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.

This kind of participation isn't helpful. If you *really* want members here to engage with you and, perhaps, explain why they have the feelings they have then you'll need to consider a less explosive way of asking.

There are some really sharp folks here with good stuff to share, but that won't do you much good if you're not open to really hearing it.

We appreciate replies like those that follow.....of Kobi and Semantics......for trying to reason without responding with attacks.

Consider your words and intent carefully.

Thinker (moderator)

[Gaige]

Originally Posted by June

But Queer folks in committed relationships who pay taxes like everyone else still don't have the legal right to marry under Federal law. Huh.

I'm just thankful to live in a country that doesn't execute someone because they're gay or lesbian. I'm hopeful the marriage issue will change.

[Kat]

The "aid" goes to corrupt government officials, just like it does in every country we bribe with money. They don't give a shit about their people, but their people are the ones who are dying. Same story, different country...

That said, I think Pakistani civilians would be overjoyed if we withdrew our troops:

"The Brookings Institution suggests that drone strikes may kill "10 or so civilians" for every militant killed.The Pakistani military has stated that most of those killed were hardcore Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants. However Pakistan's Interior Minister Rehman Malik said "Drone missiles cause collateral damage. A few militants are killed, but the majority of victims are innocent citizens." (Wikipedia - Pakistan drones)

So when are we going to add the U.S. to the axis of evil? Oh, wait -- we're the WHEEL...

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

This country provided a safe haven for Osama Bin Laden while taking money from US taxpayers.
This country encourages it's 98% Muslim majority to kidnap and kill it's 1% Christian minority.
This country exports terrorists to UK, France, Sweden, Germany, and America.
If you are the POTUS, what would you do about Pakistan?

Me: Cut off all aid
Withdraw all troops.
Let whichever enemies they have do whatever.
I still don't know what to do about our convoys in Afganistan

[Gaige]

Originally Posted by June

Handsome, I agree with you. Now, our government doesn't kill or imprison queer folks, but they used to. Even into the 60's we faced jail time unless we wore at least 3 pieces of "gender appropriate" clothing. And while our government may not officially sanction our deaths, we are still subject to dying at the hands of our fellow citizens just because we're gay.

I had no idea. Seems we've come a long way. I've been fortunate to never have experienced hate directed towards me because I am gay. Of course I live in a hardcore Democrat state.

[violaine]

i found these during a search for constitution, governance, law and justice, sustainable development, et c.-


http://www.nyulawglobal.org/Globalex/Pakistan.htm


http://www.loc.gov/law/help/guide/nations/pakistan.php

[Martina]

An article in the NYTimes today that one neighbor thought that the reason the people in the Bin Laden house were so security minded might be hat they had killed someone back in their home village. The implication is that they were afraid of reprisals. So there are other reasons for people to be security-minded in Pakistan. i am sure there are many. Anyway, it sounds like the neighbors weren't hiding his identity.

Edited to add: the U.S. government has announced that they haven't found evidence that the Pakistani govt knew where Bin Laden was.

[atomiczombie]

I see a lot of passion and anger and hurt going on in this thread. I am sad that we aim some of it at each other. I would just like to say that it is important not to get caught up in all-or-nothing-thinking. As Kobi said, there are shades of grey and distinctions to be made. There are lots of legitimate reasons to be angry and upset about the wars and conflicts between the US and other countries, as well as the injustices going on within our own shores. However, painting these issues with an all-good or all-bad brush tends to keep us away from the truth and stuck in our bad feelings. That's all I have for now.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

Handsome, I agree with you. Now, our government doesn't kill or imprison queer folks, but they used to. Even into the 60's we faced jail time unless we wore at least 3 pieces of "gender appropriate" clothing. And while our government may not officially sanction our deaths, we are still subject to dying at the hands of our fellow citizens just because we're gay.

Part of me rejoices that we no longer live with what went on back then. Yet, I do wish that US queer youth would do some research into "those days." The recent docs on Stonewall (40 year celebration documentaries) bring back a lot of what it was really like.

[Words]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.

You have repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, insulted Muslims and their religion, and for some reason I've yet to understand, you seem to be getting away with it. What is it, exactly, that you're trying to prove here? Following in Daddy's footsteps (Mafiosa my ass) are we, or are you simply a nasty, ignorant, racist with a particular grudge against Muslims?

Either way, motherfuckinpopcorninthesofa, you're talking out of your ass.

Words

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Words

You have repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, insulted Muslims and their religion, and for some reason I've yet to understand, you seem to be getting away with it. What is it, exactly, that you're trying to prove here? Following in Daddy's footsteps (Mafiosa my ass) are we, or are you simply a nasty, ignorant, racist with a particular grudge against Muslims?

Either way, motherfuckinpopcorninthesofa, you're talking out of your ass.

Words

Words,

Earlier today I dealt with the offensive post. We ask members not to further comment on posts once they have been moderated.

Please contact me via PM if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Thinker (moderator)

[Words]

No questions Thinker, just a bit confused as when I tried to report an offensive post in this particular thread, I got the following message:

PLEASE NOTE: We ***DO NOT*** moderate posts in the Red Zone unless it is a death threat, threats of bodily harm, something illegal, etc. If you are reporting a post that you find problematic, the entire purpose of The Red Zone is to give you the opportunity to address the post YOURSELF by engaging with the person who posted it.

Either way, my apologies. I'm sure there'll be lots more opportunities for me to speak to popcorn directly.

Words

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Words

No questions Thinker, just a bit confused as when I tried to report an offensive post in this particular thread, I got the following message:

PLEASE NOTE: We ***DO NOT*** moderate posts in the Red Zone unless it is a death threat, threats of bodily harm, something illegal, etc. If you are reporting a post that you find problematic, the entire purpose of The Red Zone is to give you the opportunity to address the post YOURSELF by engaging with the person who posted it.

Either way, my apologies. I'm sure there'll be lots more opportunities for me to speak to popcorn directly.

Words

I see. Good point. The message you see there shows up as a default whenever the "reporting" function is used.....just as a reminder to the member to see if the discussion is in the Red Zone.

This particular discussion is not in the RZ (but the message shows up anyway). I can certainly understand your confusion there and appreciate you explaining that.

Thanks again,
Thinker (moderator)

[AtLast]

Pilot refuses flight to Muslims

Posted: May 08, 2011 3:14 PM PDT
Updated: May 08, 2011 3:15 PM PDT
CHARLOTTE, NC (WSOC/CNN) - Two Muslim leaders were removed from a plane after the pilot refused to fly with them on board.

It happened Friday on an Atlantic Southeast Airlines flight.

The two imams were headed to North Carolina for a conference on prejudice against Muslims when they were removed from the plane by TSA agents.

The pilot said passengers were uncomfortable with the two men, who were wearing traditional Muslim clothing.

Airport security screened again the two men and cleared them, but the pilot refused to let them back on.

-----

This is just bullshit! My hope is that this pilot is at least reprimanded by his employer- and I wouldn't blame these men for filing a law suit.

So, would it be OK for a pilot to refuse flying some queers, too? I tiink the passengers having the problem should have been removed and put on another flight, if anything. And it is bullshit they were scxreened for a second time.

http://www.kfvs12.com/story/14595636...ght-to-muslims

[Julie]

I wish I could say I was shocked by the postings and the language which is being used to describe human beings.

As many of you know, I work in Peace - Primarily with children around the world and gratefully in countries such as Pakistan -- The term *Paki* is beyond offensive.

I am not going to get into a political debate about why all of this is so very wrong. It makes me sad.

I leave you with this...
Art work by a child who might not be around to create her art for me this year - because we american's find it necessary (not all) to devalue lives and forget the faces. We think we are such a huge world, but really are very small.

Here is Peace - from the eyes of a child in Pakistan.



This little child - maybe she can teach you something. Now, I am off to read the confederate flag subject -- this is MY community. I know we do not have to all get along and I know we all are different in so many beautiful ways. But to be proud to be hateful and disregard human beings... Is such a disappointment.

The face of the enemy!

[rockybcn]

[As many of you know, I work in Peace - Primarily with children around the world and gratefully in countries such as Pakistan -- The term *Paki* is beyond offensive.]


I personally thank you Julie for your contributions for peace. I hope the world will one day be a better place.
Maybe people are offended by the shortening of these nationalities ?:
Scot = from Scotland

Pole = from Poland

German = from Germany

Brit = from Britain

Aussie = from Australia

Finn = from Finland

Swede = from Sweden

All used without offence.

I think its because people associate the word Paki with racism, perhaps its time the word was reclaimed. The fault lies with those who use the word offensively in the first place not with those who use it without malice.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's not YOUR word to' reclaim.

WTF is wrong witn people proclaiming what words they can and will claim usable???

DISLIKE!

[The_Lady_Snow]

You should go read wikipedia so that way you'll know it's a derogatory word, ffs stop using these racist slurs!

[weatherboi]

Pa**

Pa** may refer to:

Paki, California, former settlement in Butte County -

Pa**, a derogatory term for a person from South Asia, particularly Indians, Pakistanis-and Bangladeshis

Pākī (c. 1808–1855), a Hawaiian high chief during the reign of King Kamehameha III