The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[mariamma]

I did derail the thread into my own personal trip. That wasn't cool. For this reason primarily I will bow out. I am not butch. This isn't a thread for me to opine in, and then derail the process with my personal interpretation.
I apologize.
Peace and Blessings

Originally Posted by Kobi

Ok this post is making me twitch and not in a good way.

First of all, I, for one, do not appreciate being referred to a bio-dame. I am female and a woman. "Dame" has a regal connotation in British history. In American history, it has more of a derogatory connotation. Perhaps you need to figure that into the not generalizing you mentioned.

Secondly, this is a thread for the experiences of butch women in a patriarchal society and I do not wish to derail that into a different focus.

However, you did mention something that does fit into the current conversation and perhaps is a good example of how we internalize our patriarchal socialization and how it colors our perceptions of other people.

You mentioned your energy work, and how the energy of a transwoman feels different to you. You said your interpretation of this difference is because "bio-dames" compete with you and it make you feel unclean. Yet, you dont experience the same competition with a transwoman. And somehow, you have deduced that because of this, transwoman energy feels more "woman-like" to you.

Has it occured to you that you have been socialized since birth to feel this exact thing? Has it occured to you that females are socialized to compete against other females? Has it occured to you that women have been socialized to feel unclean and all the variations that come with unclean?

Has it occured to you that transwomen you are speaking about have not been socialized since birth in the same way? And, perhaps, the differences you are feeling and your interpretation of them is the differences in socialization being filtered thru your own internalized sexism and misogyny?

Has it occured to you that this internalization extends to the words we use, the concepts we believe, and the pronouncements we make which all serve to reinforce the patriarchy and screw other women in the process?

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Kobi

<snip>

It seems to me, we as women, have an easy time identifiying sexism as it relates to employment issues, salary issues, sexual harrassment and the like. We have a harder time seeing how our internalized sexism and misogyny affects how we see and treat other women. I suspect we also have a harder time seeing how this internatized stuff affects how we treat masculinity within this community.

In the same vein, internalized sexism and misogyny also affects our dating/mating rituals in ways that can be concerning. And, I am not referring to what happens in private between consenting adults. I am referring to what occurs in a public arena.

<snip>

Invisibility is an area we need to rethink. It seems to me, many of us, for different reasons, feel invisible to our own people. Yet rather than rally around "invisibility" as an issue for our community to grapple with, we get sidetracked by trying to decide who has the greater right to be pissy about it. The common demoninator here is "invisibility" not id's. Yet, there is a tendency to make people feel more invisible by not acknowledging what they are feeling and why they are feeling it.

<snip>

Originally Posted by Kobi

<snip>

Secondly, this is a thread for the experiences of butch women in a patriarchal society and I do not wish to derail that into a different focus.

However, you did mention something that does fit into the current conversation and perhaps is a good example of how we internalize our patriarchal socialization and how it colors our perceptions of other people.

<snip>

Yeah, that shit made me twitch too, so I am moving on .....

The internalized stuff is huge because we dont always see it - and even when it is pointed out to us, we still dont always see it .... sometimes, even just having it pointed out to us can make us angry because it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe for how ever long we've been around.

That internalized stuff comes from our conditioning that masculine and maleness is valued more than femininity and femaleness. From birth, girls are ingrained with this idea - we are treated differently than boys, we are given different toys, told what games to and not to play, etc. and we are shown that in most, if not all ways, boys are more valued.

Hell, when I was 16 years old, my parents got me an old 1972 Pontiac LaManns in banana yellow - and I loved the hell out of that car lol. A year and a half later, when my little brother turned 16, they took the car from me and gave it to him, telling me that "boys need cars" and that if I wanted to get a ride somewhere, I should ask a boy or find a boy with a car to date.

This wasnt in the 1950s - this was in the mid-late 1980s - but I do understand that a lot of what they said and felt came from their own upbringing in the 50s.

From an early age until I left home - and even after I left home and was in the Navy (and dont get me started on how the Navy treated/treats women with what jobs we can and cannot do!) - I was taught by my parents who I was supposed to be and that I would never be as good as a boy or man; that being male was the top of the pyramid. Hell, all the way through college and well into being in the Navy, all my mom wanted for me was to find a nice rich man to take care of me - a sugar daddy - because, apparently, I couldnt take care of myself.

I have to wonder if that's part of why I almost transitioned when I was in my early 20s. I never wanted to be a man, but so many people already thought I was a man and so many others were telling me I should transition that I thought that maybe I should just get it over with (I still, to this day, have people telling me I should transition). I started to hate the woman in me because, according to what I had learned so far, she was holding me back, keeping me from certain jobs, clothing, sports, etc.

It took me such a long time to realize it was society that was fucked up, not me.


I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued.

I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Parker

I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued.

I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.

This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say?

We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience.

Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way.

[Parker]

This is true .... I have to wonder if that stretches into the realm of labels, for lack of a better term. I rarely ever hear gay men - the gay men in my experience and my circles (to add another qualifier lol) - talk about being male or female ID'd - save for the occasional butch or femme reference, nor do I hear a lot of my gay men friends speak in terms of cis- this or that, for them, it is straight up gay, straight, men, women.


But thb, I learned some of it on-line as well - because if we were irl, you could see my face, hear my tone and inflections and you would know that I was speaking for and about me, while not diminishing others; you would know that 99% of my sarcasm and humor is said and meant with zero malice because that's just how I am - a sarcastic smartass who means no harm.

On-line though, my sarcasm and humor can sometimes come across as asshole-ish behavior and I have had people in the past take posts like that and think I was trying to diminish others by speaking of my experiences; so have I learned to add a lot of and and sometimes, like above, just flat out say that I wasnt trying to marginalize others.

[girl_dee]

[QUOTE=Kobi;629689][COLOR="Navy"]

<snip>
Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received.

However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect?




</snip>


Thanks Kobi and i didn't even realize i was in the butch zone, but i do love this sort of thread because i want to learn about others.

Kobi, i imagine your statement is the same as me saying for ME, i only wish to date women who do not want to become a transman or pass as a man. i feel like that reflects who i am and what i am all about. Lot's of wonderful people in the world, but i am only attracted to certain traits... i imagine some may find that offensive?

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Parker

Yeah, that shit made me twitch too, so I am moving on .....

The internalized stuff is huge because we dont always see it - and even when it is pointed out to us, we still dont always see it .... sometimes, even just having it pointed out to us can make us angry because it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe for how ever long we've been around.

That internalized stuff comes from our conditioning that masculine and maleness is valued more than femininity and femaleness. From birth, girls are ingrained with this idea - we are treated differently than boys, we are given different toys, told what games to and not to play, etc. and we are shown that in most, if not all ways, boys are more valued.

Hell, when I was 16 years old, my parents got me an old 1972 Pontiac LaManns in banana yellow - and I loved the hell out of that car lol. A year and a half later, when my little brother turned 16, they took the car from me and gave it to him, telling me that "boys need cars" and that if I wanted to get a ride somewhere, I should ask a boy or find a boy with a car to date.

This wasnt in the 1950s - this was in the mid-late 1980s - but I do understand that a lot of what they said and felt came from their own upbringing in the 50s.

From an early age until I left home - and even after I left home and was in the Navy (and dont get me started on how the Navy treated/treats women with what jobs we can and cannot do!) - I was taught by my parents who I was supposed to be and that I would never be as good as a boy or man; that being male was the top of the pyramid. Hell, all the way through college and well into being in the Navy, all my mom wanted for me was to find a nice rich man to take care of me - a sugar daddy - because, apparently, I couldnt take care of myself.

I have to wonder if that's part of why I almost transitioned when I was in my early 20s. I never wanted to be a man, but so many people already thought I was a man and so many others were telling me I should transition that I thought that maybe I should just get it over with (I still, to this day, have people telling me I should transition). I started to hate the woman in me because, according to what I had learned so far, she was holding me back, keeping me from certain jobs, clothing, sports, etc.

It took me such a long time to realize it was society that was fucked up, not me.


[I]I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued. [/I]

I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.

Exactly! I highlighted the part of your post that seems to never be spoken about or aknowledged in our community. It's still percieved to be soooo much cooler to be a man than it is to be a woman. Butches are sometimes pressured into transitioning, and it's all about misogyny. I've seen/heard trans and male IDed people from within and without the bf community exert that pressure, and it makes me sick. I never let it pass. I'm an old school lesbian feminist, and I will NEVER allow anyone to get away with telling a woman that she ought to become a man.

Parker, I'm so sorry that you've had to hear that, and that you continue to hear it. I also highlighted your disclaimer. I understand that you have good reason to feel that a disclaimer must be appended. I wish we could simply say, "We don't want to be men" without having to sooth the possibly outraged males who may perceive our matter-of-fact statements of female ID as an insult to themselves.

The phenomenon bears a strong resemblance to the responses I've read here on this site whenever men are criticized. Five of the first six responses to a linked article written by a trans guy about the incredibly offensive things men say to each other about women when they think they are amongst themselves essentially said, "You shouldn't criticize men because women are terrible." Yes, I know that's somewhat reductive, but that was the strong, clear message I took away from that exchange.

I was treated similarly to you within my family. My parents told my sister and I that we would have to get scholarships to college, but that they would find a way to pay for my brother's education. He would be responsible for supporting a family, after all. (Those conversations happened in the 1970's, and he has not, as yet, supported anyone at all.) We have a long way to go before we can eradicate the internalized misogyny that was and is inflicted on us.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say?

We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience.

Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way.

Whoops. I was busy writing my own missive while Kobi beat me to the punch with her far more succinct post.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Parker

Yeah, that shit made me twitch too, so I am moving on .....

The internalized stuff is huge because we dont always see it - and even when it is pointed out to us, we still dont always see it .... sometimes, even just having it pointed out to us can make us angry because it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe for how ever long we've been around.

That internalized stuff comes from our conditioning that masculine and maleness is valued more than femininity and femaleness. From birth, girls are ingrained with this idea - we are treated differently than boys, we are given different toys, told what games to and not to play, etc. and we are shown that in most, if not all ways, boys are more valued.

Hell, when I was 16 years old, my parents got me an old 1972 Pontiac LaManns in banana yellow - and I loved the hell out of that car lol. A year and a half later, when my little brother turned 16, they took the car from me and gave it to him, telling me that "boys need cars" and that if I wanted to get a ride somewhere, I should ask a boy or find a boy with a car to date.

This wasnt in the 1950s - this was in the mid-late 1980s - but I do understand that a lot of what they said and felt came from their own upbringing in the 50s.

From an early age until I left home - and even after I left home and was in the Navy (and dont get me started on how the Navy treated/treats women with what jobs we can and cannot do!) - I was taught by my parents who I was supposed to be and that I would never be as good as a boy or man; that being male was the top of the pyramid. Hell, all the way through college and well into being in the Navy, all my mom wanted for me was to find a nice rich man to take care of me - a sugar daddy - because, apparently, I couldnt take care of myself.

I have to wonder if that's part of why I almost transitioned when I was in my early 20s. I never wanted to be a man, but so many people already thought I was a man and so many others were telling me I should transition that I thought that maybe I should just get it over with (I still, to this day, have people telling me I should transition). I started to hate the woman in me because, according to what I had learned so far, she was holding me back, keeping me from certain jobs, clothing, sports, etc.

It took me such a long time to realize it was society that was fucked up, not me.


I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued.

I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world.

I spent a lot of time mulling this over today and having flashbacks to less pleasant times.

Having grown up in a very traditional Italian family, the message was very clear.....girls/females/women behavior, dress, think, aspire to, prefer, defer, etc certain things. I very much felt female but the traditions didnt fit who I was, how I behaved, how I thought, what I aspired to, or how I preferred to dress.

Heck, I even remember the day my brother told me I didnt wash my hands like a girl. There was a girls only way of washing hands? Really? I remember watching people wash their hands after that. I didnt have the words for it back then, but today I can say it was really weird to me that people ascribed masculine and feminine to something as mundane as handwashing. Little did I know how deep and far reaching that dichotomy ran.

There was never a disconnect inside of me, or between my internal self and my body. There was a disconnect between the internal me and the external world. Society was saying my way of being female was being interpreted as being masculine/male-like and that was not a good thing.

When I came out as a young adult, once again, what felt perfectly normal and natural to me was framed into something else because I didnt fit the norm of what being a woman was about back then. So, who I was was transformed into, "I was a lesbian because I wanted to be a man." Sigh.

Throughout my life, I have tried on different labels hoping to find one that reflects the totality of who I am and is perceived in the way I wish it to be. Considering our community invents more and more labels to reflect its growing diversity, you would think I could find one that works, or at least one that I dont have to continuously explain or qualify.

Nowadays, I just prefer to say I am a female/woman who expresses my femaleness/womanness my way. Simple, yes? Nah.

Regardless of what I say or feel, others still experience me and treat me from within their own frame of reference/experience which does not always match mine.

People stuff is really tricky shit. Society stuff is really tricky shit. A lot of the isms have become so institutionalized, and so internalized that it is sometimes different to distinguish between what might be an ism vs a preference, or an ism vs humor, or malicious intent vs naivete, or cultural differences vs ???.

Very, very, tricky stuff.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Parker

This is true .... I have to wonder if that stretches into the realm of labels, for lack of a better term. I rarely ever hear gay men - the gay men in my experience and my circles (to add another qualifier lol) - talk about being male or female ID'd - save for the occasional butch or femme reference, nor do I hear a lot of my gay men friends speak in terms of cis- this or that, for them, it is straight up gay, straight, men, women.


But thb, I learned some of it on-line as well - because if we were irl, you could see my face, hear my tone and inflections and you would know that I was speaking for and about me, while not diminishing others; you would know that 99% of my sarcasm and humor is said and meant with zero malice because that's just how I am - a sarcastic smartass who means no harm.

On-line though, my sarcasm and humor can sometimes come across as asshole-ish behavior and I have had people in the past take posts like that and think I was trying to diminish others by speaking of my experiences; so have I learned to add a lot of and and sometimes, like above, just flat out say that I wasnt trying to marginalize others.

Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.

i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.

[Glenn]

[QUOTE=Kobi;630097][COLOR="Navy"]
.

Having grown up in a very traditional Italian family, the message was very clear.....girls/females/women behavior, dress, think, aspire to, prefer, defer, etc certain things. I very much felt female but the traditions didnt fit who I was, how I behaved, how I thought, what I aspired to, or how I preferred to dress.


Kobi; A lot of traditional Italian families were also matriarchal led such as mine . Mine nurtured my strength as a butch, gave me independence, did'nt make me or my partner of thirty plus years do or think anything we did'nt want too. Please do not give this thread the wrong impression about what traditional Italian families are or are not concerning butches and others. Thank-You

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.

i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.

I found this very interesting.

In real life, I cant think of anyone who used any pronoun but *she*. Then again, I dont remember there being another option either.

Online, things seem to be a little different.

Perhaps there is more exploration of identities, more experimentation to see if something else works better, more opportunity to be exposed to new and different ways of conceptualizing oneself, more variety to find the niche that defines the you you know yourself to be.

Perhaps there is some degree of peer pressure involved in our effort to fit in, be accepted, and attract the type of person we are looking to attract. We define, refine, sometimes even find ourselves in relation to others. So others have the potential to have a profound effect on us.

Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.

Interesting to think about.

[Kobi]

[quote=Glenn;630220]

Originally Posted by Kobi

[COLOR="Navy"]
.

Having grown up in a very traditional Italian family, the message was very clear.....girls/females/women behavior, dress, think, aspire to, prefer, defer, etc certain things. I very much felt female but the traditions didnt fit who I was, how I behaved, how I thought, what I aspired to, or how I preferred to dress.


Kobi; A lot of traditional Italian families were also matriarchal led such as mine . Mine nurtured my strength as a butch, gave me independence, did'nt make me or my partner of thirty plus years do or think anything we did'nt want too. Please do not give this thread the wrong impression about what traditional Italian families are or are not concerning butches and others. Thank-You

Glenn, we had different experiences.

In the 1950's, my traditional Italian experience was very patriarchal, very male, very old fashioned male-female rigidly defined roles, expectations, and even laws. I had many exceptional female role models who did exceptional things under extraordinary circumstances but it saddened me to know they didnt see themselves as exceptional women. It saddened me that they didnt value the other females in their lives in the way I expected. It saddened me when my maternal great grandmother who owned a successful farm which was run by her and her 2 unmarried daughters, left those daughters destitute and homeless when she died because she left the farm to her sons.

I am speaking to my experience. Perhaps you might wish to revisit my earlier post which read:

"This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say?

We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience.

Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way."

You are welcome and encouraged to speak from your experience. I would love to hear how a strong matriarchal led family shaped the person you are.

Thank you

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.

I feel like you are mixing up "masculine" and "male" here, but I dont want to assume - are they synonyms for you?

I am masculine - I just also happen to be a woman at the same time and I, personally, dont believe the two are mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she.

i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community.

I have seen this as well - I have been told the same thing, re: expectations of being male id; and I have also been told that that is how some people tell the difference between a femme and a butch - the former is she and the latter is he.

I feel like that's bullshit, but what can you do - each person has to do right by and for themselves, not by and for me!

Personally, I've never been he/hy - on-line or irl.

[BullDog]

The idea that you call femmes she and butches he so you can tell them apart is such bullshit. What do you do when you have two friends named Terry, call one by a different name? No. It seems like a lot of anxiety- like heaven forbid a butch might be talking in chat and someone makes the fatal mistake of thinking it was a femme typing. Oh my. Talk about the worst crime in the world.

[BullDog]

On the positive side of things, despite all the online b.s. and some out in the real world too, being a butch woman who does embrace masculinity is very freeing and allows me to fully be myself. I do not in any way feel that masculinity is owned by men. I also see men embracing feminine aspects so women don't own femininity either. I am not bound to follow any rules or be a man or male to be the butch and masculine person that I am. I have my own role models and do not live to anyone's expectations other than my own. I do not fit in with the stereotype of woman, but I am just as much a woman- just a different type. Embracing masculinity is very natural to me and seeing myself as a woman makes me feel connected to women who have gone before me throughout history as well as now. I experience life as a woman. To disassociate from that reality for me personally would be a disservice to myself. So I am happy being me.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering.

Originally Posted by Parker

I feel like you are mixing up "masculine" and "male" here, but I dont want to assume - are they synonyms for you?

I am masculine - I just also happen to be a woman at the same time and I, personally, dont believe the two are mutually exclusive.

I was using masculine in a non-gender specific way.

[Nadeest]

I have tended to use' hy' here, for butches, as it seems to be the way that it works. I am perfectly comfortable using 'she', though. For me, it is whatever the person prefers. For some, the pronouns 'ze' and 'hir' work better, and I am fine with that, as well.

[*Anya*]

I tend to never use pronouns online as unless someone specifies what they prefer, as I am always afraid I will call them the wrong pronoun and they will get either pissed or feel hurt.

Coming from the old-school lesbian world, where butches still called themselves "her" and "she", it has been an education and at times, has felt like a minefield; to come online and find that over the last 10-years or so, that things had changed.

I had never heard, in the offline world, any of the new prounouns. I still really do not but the online world frequently is different than the outside world.

I still have a hard time using them and in interpersonal interactions online, occasionally "slip" without meaning to.

Change is difficult.

[Toughy]

I'm still twitching ...........however I really dislike when folks come in and stir the pot and then leave the thread for one excuse or another.........when the real reason is someone(s) challenged what they said and pointed out the 'isms' in what was said.

bio-dames.........laughin...........that's definitely a new one for me....

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm still twitching ...........however I really dislike when folks come in and stir the pot and then leave the thread for one excuse or another.........when the real reason is someone(s) challenged what they said and pointed out the 'isms' in what was said.

bio-dames.........laughin...........that's definitely a new one for me....

oh G*d thank you for saying this!

my laughter was the derisive snort variety but that's just because i'm a schmuck.
<----- think i'ma change my "how do you identify" answer to "bio-dame" face