Pressurised to transition.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Before I say anything, let me commend the OP and everyone who has posted so far. This is an extraordinarily difficult topic and I'm both proud of folks for being willing to tackle it and pleased that it is being tackled. The degree to which this happens (and humans being humans it would be remarkable if it never happened) is a question I have wanted to take on in writing for a few years now. I first wondered about this a litle more than a decade ago.

I have an ex, D, who I am still very good friends with. At the time, D was seeing this transguy named J. One day, D told me that she was thinking about transitioning. This caught me a little bit by surprise but I wasn't going to tell someone what their process was. I asked her some questions because, quite honestly, I know D well and I just couldn't see it. I asked her what made her think that she might be male and the only thing she could really come up with was that all of the musicians she loved and admired were men--D was and still is a big music geek. At the time, she wanted to be in a band. I suggested that perhaps she might want to give it some thought and that if she was really trans that would be still be there. Then I said I'd support her whatever she did. A few weeks later she was talking about having her first shot of T. Her boyfriend had a line on T through a backchannel. I told her that this seemed an extraordinarily bad idea.

Now, at the time both D and J were going to a trans support group and I wondered to what degree there was some transman being, well, an elder who might be able and willing to say to D, 'let's talk about this'. It didn't happen. Eventually D came to her senses and stopped transitioning before she did something permanent.

This incident has haunted me for a long time because I wondered how many times something like this was being played out and whether we, as a community, had the tools to talk about this topic in an adult and loving manner. So seeing this makes me feel good that the discussion can happen.

On another personal note, the book I've been afraid to write deals with this very question. I'm afraid to write it because, well, I know our people and I know how we can be--sometimes even asking the question "are there really that many more transmen around or is there something else going on" can cause a category five shit storm to erupt into one's life. But of the books that are scattered on my computer half written or mapped out in my head, the one on this question is the one that is burning a hole in my head, demanding to be written. Don't worry, I’m not gathering information or doing research.

I don't have any advice for anyone, although I will say these two things:

1) As Keri said, transitioning is the hardest thing you will ever do. I have often said that next to transition, everything else I will ever do fades into the merely difficult.

2) The only reason to transition is because you feel that something is just a bit off-kilter between body and brain. It won't make your life easier (see 1 above) nor will it fix your quirks and eccentricities. It solves one thing that is out of balance in your life and nothing else. Now, if it solves that problem for you, however, it will change your life and make it a better more comfortable place than you might have imagined possible. And if it doesn't break you along the way, the person who comes out on the other side will be a force of nature. You will know yourself much better and you'll know *precisely* what you are capable of.


Cheers
Aj

It does feel like we have finally broken through this topic in a way that is more honest, less defensive and much kinder. Mainly it seems to giving room to a difficult discussion without hurtful (and false) assumptions. I remember past threads (mainly in the old site) just in the last four years that would not get passed a couple of posts without all hell breaking out.

Your story about your friend may very well be one that many of us- butch or trans- have experienced with a friend. And we do need to address issues surrounding the possibility of peer pressure and transitioning along with all of the other variables involved. I have always felt that we can do and come out better for it even though it is a very sensitive matter.

I know that the main thing for me is for a friend (or relative) to choose transitioning under the best of medical care, support and information about transitioning and for this to be of and for themselves completely. And for this to be the case, we do need to support as a community legislation and organizations that not only work for our own interests as part of the queer umbrella, but also for transgendered and intergendered people.

Further, recognizing the issues and needs of butches to also live in a supportive environment and be who we are just as we are is critical. Sharing what is common to us all within this community is a way we can deal more effectively with our difference, I believe and I am grateful for what has thus far been discussed in this thread. I feel a part of a respectful, mature discussion that just feels so much better than in the past.

[chefhottie25]

there is some great discussion going on here. i identify as a boi...which i consider to be a third gender. i bind and prefer the pronouns hy and hym...but that doesn't mean that i want to transition. i have had ftm and mtf friends and i have never felt any pressure to transition. as friends we would often talk openly about their journey and experiences surrounding the transition. it has never left me feeling that it is something that i need or want to do. i am comfortable and complete being the boi that i am.

[PumaJ]

Following this fabulous discussion has given me so much food for thought. AtLastHome, thank you for the links you provided earlier in the conversation. Wonderful articles each one filled with so many excellent points.

I watched a documentary the other evening on PBS that was part of the Independent Lens series. The documentary was about Two Spirit people. In the past I'd partnered with two Native American Butches, both of whom ID'd as Two Spirit. Neveretheless, I found the documentary to be full of information I'd not known before. I especially like the traditional view that there are more than two genders and that each gender has a role to play in the community. Two Spirits

Would that we could have such an enlightened point of view in our culture.

Something that has become more clear to me as I read and think about all that has been said, is just how very queer being a High Femme is. Speaking for myself, I can say that supporting and defending the right to be just as they are, has always been a big component of my loving masculine of center women. I'm pretty certain that that is true for all femmes who love MOC women and those who choose to transition as FTM.

[AtLast]

After reading Aj's last post about the friend that could have began transitioning under not very safe conditions- no medical script for T- I am wondering about ways that we all can contribute to this sort of thing not happening. As butches of every flavor, as transmen and women, as femmes of all distinctions.

Overall, with the exception of my teenage friend (back in the mid 60's in a very small mountain community with abusive parents that did kill himself), all trans and my intergendered cousin have had medical as wells as support via psychotherapy, trans support groups and organizations. Because I am an old fart, most friendships I have are with older folks- so my guess is that my running into someone struggling with transitioning that is very young probably won't happen like it might for other people here. So, I am interested in more thoughts about how to handle it when we do see situations in which peer pressure might be contributing to transitioning.

Aj's statement to her friend were not judgemental or in any way "side taking." Really great examples of how to communicate to someone something that isn't easy without making them feel "wrong."

I would love to hear from everyone on the best ways one might handle and talk to a friend about this so that they seek professional care and don't risk their health by doing something like using street T. It almost feels like it is better for these messages to come from another transperson on hormone therapy for it to sink in.

[Linus]

If they are someone in a larger city it may benefit them, if they are considering to transition, to see about joining a local trans support group. I found, at least in NYC at the LGBT Center, that many of the trans guys I met were young (and a few too many homeless). These support groups can often steer younger folks to medical support at low to no cost. At the same time these groups allow them to ask the questions needed -- in a safe and supportive environment (regardless of their decision to transition or not). In the group I was I. A few butches and studs joined who were curious but decided that this wasn't the path for them.

I'm thankful for that group as it kept me sane, safe and made me realize I wasn't alone. There are times when I miss it. Anyways, I digress.

I truly believe that if someone is pressured or feeling pressured to transition, just providing the support for who they are is a good place to start. I also feel that allowing the questions to be asked is also helpful as is asking them the question of "do YOU feel that this is your path?". If they say yes, then get them to say why. The more they think about it and all that's involved, the more they may, hopefully, realize that this has to be something truly deep inside who they are and not just because others tell them or because they think it's the "natural way of things" or the "next step in butch evolution".

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

If they are someone in a larger city it may benefit them, if they are considering to transition, to see about joining a local trans support group. I found, at least in NYC at the LGBT Center, that many of the trans guys I met were young (and a few too many homeless). These support groups can often steer younger folks to medical support at low to no cost. At the same time these groups allow them to ask the questions needed -- in a safe and supportive environment (regardless of their decision to transition or not). In the group I was I. A few butches and studs joined who were curious but decided that this wasn't the path for them.

I'm thankful for that group as it kept me sane, safe and made me realize I wasn't alone. There are times when I miss it. Anyways, I digress.

I truly believe that if someone is pressured or feeling pressured to transition, just providing the support for who they are is a good place to start. I also feel that allowing the questions to be asked is also helpful as is asking them the question of "do YOU feel that this is your path?". If they say yes, then get them to say why. The more they think about it and all that's involved, the more they may, hopefully, realize that this has to be something truly deep inside who they are and not just because others tell them or because they think it's the "natural way of things" or the "next step in butch evolution".

Thanks, Linus- this is helpful. Really helpful. Where I live there are many organizations and groups available which is great. I do get concerned for folks that just live in small towns and it is next to impossible for them to get to larger metropolitian areas for support and medical treatment in figuring out if transitioning is right for them. Also, there are butch oriented groups available here that address our issues and provide support. Just the B-F orientation can be isolating for many of us.

I have often thought about how this very website is a resource for many that don't have much available to them where they live. In fact, I think the Planet serves many of us that are geographically isolated or physically disabled that share our narraitive. It is a vital part of the site.

Rather a unique bunch!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Linus

If they are someone in a larger city it may benefit them, if they are considering to transition, to see about joining a local trans support group. I found, at least in NYC at the LGBT Center, that many of the trans guys I met were young (and a few too many homeless). These support groups can often steer younger folks to medical support at low to no cost. At the same time these groups allow them to ask the questions needed -- in a safe and supportive environment (regardless of their decision to transition or not). In the group I was I. A few butches and studs joined who were curious but decided that this wasn't the path for them.

I'm thankful for that group as it kept me sane, safe and made me realize I wasn't alone. There are times when I miss it. Anyways, I digress.

I truly believe that if someone is pressured or feeling pressured to transition, just providing the support for who they are is a good place to start. I also feel that allowing the questions to be asked is also helpful as is asking them the question of "do YOU feel that this is your path?". If they say yes, then get them to say why. The more they think about it and all that's involved, the more they may, hopefully, realize that this has to be something truly deep inside who they are and not just because others tell them or because they think it's the "natural way of things" or the "next step in butch evolution".

Linus:

You capture so much of what I want to see. I understand that, for very good reasons, the community has adopted an idea that in order to support and love one another, we have to accept anything anyone does under almost any circumstances. Sometimes, though, the most loving thing one can do is say "have you thought this through?" There are, in my mind, an innumerable number of reasons NOT to transition, I can think of only a handful of reasons TO transition. I think we need to support one another in knowing the difference. Sometimes, that may entail going to entail supporting someone in the decision to transition. Other times, it may be supporting someone in the decision not to do so.

Cheers
Aj

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

The pressure I felt was pretty subtle at first - mainly because being or becoming trans wasnt as well known back in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s - at least not in my world - I didnt know of anyone who transitioned or even knew what that meant or entailed.

But even as a kid, people thought I was a boy - my mom would never let me cut my hair short so even in high school with long hair (actually a mullet - it was the 80s after all lol), I got sir'd all the time and people thought I was a man most of the time.

So when I was in my early 20s and struggling with my sexual orientation (read: trying to accept that I was a big ol' dyke), I considered transitioning because so many people thought I was a man already, I figured I might as well go ahead and fit what society is already seeing and assuming.

That led to a lot of introspection and a lot of talking about things with friends and I decided that I would be transitioning for the wrong reasons - I cant spend my life giving a fuck about how society sees me - whether they see the woman that I am or the man that they assume I am.

The truth was simple: I liked being a woman and didnt want to be a man. I just had to become "ok" with being a woman who also happened to be masculine and who would be mistaken for a man 90-95% of the time by the world at large (sometimes, even in gay bars - talk about being invisible ).

There was also a time in my 30s when sometimes some people in the trans community would tell me I should transition - that I already passed so why not go all the way, as if the ID &/or gender of butch couldnt stand on its own but instead had to be a stepping stone for a more evolved state of being: FTM.

That was frustrating and I still get that sometimes - the "oh you're just envious" or the "why dont you just transition already" comments, but I figure that has more to do with the insecurities of the people saying those things than me, my ID, or how I present myself.

It's a constant struggle to be seen - a struggle that is exhausting and a struggle that I sometimes just want to give up, but I also feel that it's a necessary struggle so that the butches coming up behind me will know that butch *can* stand on its own and not be part of an evolution into something or someone else.

[iamkeri1]

Parker
Thank you for sharing your own personal "transition" which for you ended in your acceptance of yourself as you are. That is the place I would hope for us all to end up. For some of us it does involve some level of drug therapy or surgery to help us move closer to the person we are in our head/soul, and fortunately for many of us these phyical "adjustments" are less necessary.

I have partnered most of my life with FTM individuals, but still there is a special place in my heart for a big ol' dyke. Thank you so much for taking on this struggle which I know is an almost constant one for you. You and other butch women (and feminine men) have throughout history carried the prinicple burden of discrimination on your strong beautiful backs. Your visibility, your unwillingness or inability to hide have evoked changes throughout history that have moved first individuals and then society to a greater acceptance of gender variant people in general. (As a femme I include myself in that group, along with queerfolk of all kinds.)

For me it is a treat (though I acknowledge that it probably does not equate as a treat for you in most circumstances), to recognize upon second glances that the person pumping gas next to me or standing in line to vote is a women, not the man that I unheedingly first perceived her to be. To give her a nod and receive back that flash of a smile, to share that moment of recognition (because I too, as femme, am most often invisible.) can bring smiles to my face for months after.
Smooches,
Keri

Originally Posted by Parker

The pressure I felt was pretty subtle at first - mainly because being or becoming trans wasnt as well known back in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s - at least not in my world - I didnt know of anyone who transitioned or even knew what that meant or entailed.

But even as a kid, people thought I was a boy - my mom would never let me cut my hair short so even in high school with long hair (actually a mullet - it was the 80s after all lol), I got sir'd all the time and people thought I was a man most of the time.

So when I was in my early 20s and struggling with my sexual orientation (read: trying to accept that I was a big ol' dyke), I considered transitioning because so many people thought I was a man already, I figured I might as well go ahead and fit what society is already seeing and assuming.

That led to a lot of introspection and a lot of talking about things with friends and I decided that I would be transitioning for the wrong reasons - I cant spend my life giving a fuck about how society sees me - whether they see the woman that I am or the man that they assume I am.

The truth was simple: I liked being a woman and didnt want to be a man. I just had to become "ok" with being a woman who also happened to be masculine and who would be mistaken for a man 90-95% of the time by the world at large (sometimes, even in gay bars - talk about being invisible ).

There was also a time in my 30s when sometimes some people in the trans community would tell me I should transition - that I already passed so why not go all the way, as if the ID &/or gender of butch couldnt stand on its own but instead had to be a stepping stone for a more evolved state of being: FTM.

That was frustrating and I still get that sometimes - the "oh you're just envious" or the "why dont you just transition already" comments, but I figure that has more to do with the insecurities of the people saying those things than me, my ID, or how I present myself.

It's a constant struggle to be seen - a struggle that is exhausting and a struggle that I sometimes just want to give up, but I also feel that it's a necessary struggle so that the butches coming up behind me will know that butch *can* stand on its own and not be part of an evolution into something or someone else.

[Tye]

I think this thread is great. When I was younger I struggled with trying to understand who I was and how I fit into society. When I was around 19 I considered transitioning, because at that time I thought it was the only way I could be with woman and not have life a constant struggle. As time went on I realized I was becoming more happy within myself as I was a woman that was butch I'd. My family has always been supportive of my life and over the years I have had good friends and acouple relationships that helped me see it was ok to be who I was. I have a friend that was butch for many years and started transitioning Afew years ago. We have had many conversations about the issues he faces with this and at one time I felt he was pressuring me too transition and I finally told him I was happy with me and after I explained how I luv being a butch woman and don't feel as though I'm trapped in the wrong body he understood. I understand where he was coming from but once I explained I felt pressured we talked about it and our friendship was ok. I know what you meant by feeling like you lose apart of that friendship when one transitions, but we are still friends and wish the best for each other in our life journey.

[Corkey]

Just be YOU, whom ever that happens to be. Do not let others dictate who YOU are. You, only you, have that power.
Said for the umpteenth time.

Who ever you happen to be, rejoice in who YOU are.