Pressurised to transition.

[Chazz]

I am a 3rd gendered butch who has come to be comfortable in my woman body. Such was not always the case because of the "pressure cooker" effect that Heart speaks of so eloquently.

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Absolutely ! ! ! ! This will continue to happen as long as behavior is gendered. Clothing, hair cuts, career choices, childhood preferences in toys, etc., too.

Gender constructs (gay, straight, or otherwise), are the root cause of this. Existing constructs, from whatever quarter, are arbitrary and subjective; wholly idiosyncratic. No gender self-concept is ever entirely free from external influences. Humans are social animals; none of us live in a vacuum.

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

Originally Posted by Heart

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker.

Or, just plain silly.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. Including, my past relationships.

The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

[DapperButch]

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.

I will say that I have, over the years, witnessed online a kind of pressure from some femmes towards butches to be the "men of the community," which horrified me. (What is wrong with being the BUTCHES of the community??)

I will also say that I know numerous transmen who get it -- who have no interest in "converting" butches and respect and honor them for who they are.

And the last thing I'll say is that some butches I know are 3rd gender and others are women. Woman and butch are not, have never been, and never will be mutually exclusive of each other.

Heart

Thank you Heart for this post. Puts it into the fluid perspective it is.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with what you state about what Butches go through here and often in real time within our own community. Yes, Transmen "get us" on a whole other level than many femmes (probably part of why I don't feel pressure from them to transition). They get the bathroom garbage, and threats (or actual) violence we deal with- all of it. At least transmen I relate to. Part of this is because they have lived it, but I think they just have a deeper sensitivity about such things due to gender identity struggles.


The pressure cooker you site is very real for me as a FIB- and I know these feelings exist for MIBs and 3rd Gendered butches as well.

I want to be accepted for who I am in this body and mind of mine, period. I love my body as it is (LOL, sure, a bit of nostalgia for it in younger form comes up). I love the balance and integration of feminine & masculine (if I have to use these terms- anima & animus fit better I feel- even yin & yang- two-spirit is good) as a butch woman.

Something I need to state, however, is that I do understand some of issues that femmes go through that are with transmen- and why at times, they feel put down or not accepted. It would do us well to be more sensitive to all factors that people go through. No matter their identity.

I really just want to be the butch I am and be accepted…. it is hard enough dealing with what goes on in real-time. It hasn't been very long at all since the last time I was threatened with violence.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I'm really sorry this happened to you, ALH. To be honest, I've heard conversations amongst femme women in which they changed preferred pronouns to male against the expressed preferences of the butch woman they were discussing. I've also heard femmes put subtle pressure on butches to ID as male. It's not quite the same thing as pressuring a butch to transition, but I think it's on the continuum. If I witness this I never let it go. It's my nature to challenge that kind of disrespect.

The worst incidences I've witnessed of pressuring butches to transition came from a very good FTM friend of mine who has transitioned and lives his life fully as a male. I have heard him tell butch women that they should transition because T is such a great drug, or because their lives would be easier as men, etc. He's even suggested that I take T. No, he was not joking. He seems to believe that T is some kind of health tonic. We've had huge fights over this, and I've warned him not to risk losing my respect. Hopefully I've heard the last of it. We're still friends because I consider him family, but his relentless pressure against butch women has occasionally endangered his status in my life.

I've also witnessed very young people pressuring each other to transition. Because it's cool. Yes, it's true. I live in NYC where there's a subculture and plenty of information about how to obtain street T.

So, the answer is YES. It happens, and it sucks. Just like Strappie wrote, it's no different than pressuring a person to be straight.

Thank you. It really hurts to hear other butches making what they have had happen to them known. I couldn't lie about my experiences and transmen, but I see the posts and it just plain hurts.

What can we do as a community about this?

[Daywalker]

What can we do?

We can hold true to ourselves, and just give a nod of recognition to those
who are heading towards their life Transition...knowing that ours
has/will/may most likely play out differently.

A mutal respect of Journeys.

But the first ink-ling that stirs within you that feels the need to "keep up
with the...masculinity" ~ that needs to be examined. It is not a competition,
it's supposed to be something for others to celebrate and for their Family
and Friends to accept. Transition is a many Splendid term for what
goes on inside and outside of our minds and Spirits.

If you are competitive by nature, be careful to examine this if you
feel 'pressured' by others that are doing their best to meet their
ideals of reaching the (masculine) match
between their minds and bodies.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Gender is a myth. Gender concepts and terminology mystify the complex business of BEING.

But there is a subtler aspect, too. One that is rarely, if ever, talked about. That is the role playing that often, wittingly or not, goes on in many relationships. The role playing served me for awhile. It told me who I was, or so I thought. But, it also confined and stunted me. Eventually, it took the the personal growth, creativity and excitement out of my life and relationships. My life was a "color by numbers" role playing affair. This kept me wandering from one relationship to the next, and from one constructed self to the next. Although I am not a finished product by any means, things have changed for the better since I stopped performing gender and allowed myself to just be.

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Greyson;338953]I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.[/QUOTE]

Your entire post brings up important distinction- but the last statement really strikes me. Neither is very easy and no matter the negative things that may have happened to any of us, "get" this statement. And there are the issues born of the "normative structures" that femmes deal with.

I do have transmen real-time friends (fully transitioned)that feel more at peace in terms of gender, but not like life is less complicated.

I only hope as we going along the way, we figure out more constructive and positive ways to relate to each and and as a population that is a grouping of sub-cultures within a sub-culture within the outside, normative oppression we have all felt.

I think this makes sense.

[CherylNYC]

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WvtkCOd33s"]YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏[/nomedia]

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏

This so addresses how I feel at times with continued questioning about my gender- my being a masculine woman and one that feels quite comfortable being so. And it deeply saddens (and angers) me as a licensed clinician (retired) that a therapist did this! In fact it is something that ought to be reported to the licensing board as mal-practice.

This is exactly the kind of thing that could push a butch into transitioning when they are not transgendered or intergendered. I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

Until the many "faces" of gender is truly understood by society at large (and even within our corner of queerdom), we are all negatively affected by gender ignorance. Butches, femmes, transpeople, intergendered people, and third gender individuals. And there are even more gender types being researched and theorized about.

I have looked at my own gender identity in many ways since the 1960's when first knowing a trans teen friend. I've looked and questioned and pondered and have always come to the conclusion that I am a woman through and through. But not the kind of woman that is recognized as a woman without doubt or presumption- other people's doubt, not my own.

I heard a very sad srory from a femme I dated a couple of years ago about a butch that transitioned (had top surgery along with taking T for several years) that was going through hell because she (reverted to female pronounds) felt she made a mistake and was caught up in a kind of "fad." At that point, she was going through a lot of pain because the very people that supported (and according to her) and she felt pressured by to transition (they were/had) turned their backs on her as a friend. Now, I never met this person and my info is second hand, so I never had a discussion with her. But this felt really awful to me. I don't know how it all ended up for her. At that time, she was going to stop the T and hopefully have more surgeries to revert back to a female bodied person according to what I was told. Since she lives in SF, it appeared that she was able to find some support with what she wanted to do. I hope so. I doubt that this is common- especially after actually having surgery. But, it does bring to light the subject of this thread and things that are really important to take a look at. And like I said, I cannot possibly have all the facts.

[PumaJ]

I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

AtLastHome, I appreciate the many fine points you've made. Perhaps we are seeing a version of misogyny in action. IDK...

I've had some conversations with a few of the masculine of center (MOC) women I know about the subject of FTM transitions. Most stand very strong in their female masculinity, and whether they ID as Butch, Boi, or Two-Spirit, they each see themselves as being a 3rd gender, alongside dominant culture's tradition of gender binary. That is, being neither female or male, but rather both at once, in female form. In my conversations we've spoken about their individual comfort levels in relation to the various aspects of their female anatomies. None of them are 100% comfortable with all of their parts, but only one has talked about undergoing a FTM transition. Another two have spoken about wanting breast reductions, but not mastectomies. We have talked about the number of younger MOC women making FTM transitions & some of the pressure my friends have perceived that encourages FTM transition. For the most part, except for one long time Butch friend, none of them are very happy with what they see going on. They don't disparage those for whom transition is due to truly feeling as though they are a male trapped in female form. It's just they don't view being a MOC woman as the same thing as being a male trapped in female form.

As a High Femme who is only romantically & sexually attracted to women who are quite MOC, it is my observation & experience that the infusion of strong female masculine energy through the female form is a very powerful combination. Just as it's opposite, the infusion of male femininity through the male form is very powerful. Cultures in other places & times have recognized the power of such combinations, resulting in the acceptance of multigendered societies/cultures. In some, 3rd, 4th, 5th gendered persons have been held in high regard as a result of being multigendered.

As a long time feminist, I am of the view that each individual woman is the only one who gets to determine the way/ways in which she expresses herself as a woman in the world. In that view, I am including all women be they femme, butch, boi, stud, AG, or no particular ID beyond female. I feel frustrated & sometimes angry at those who try to impose their personal understanding or version of being female onto someone else.

If my use of the pronoun she has offended anyone, I apologize. I mean no disrespect, or lack of recognition to those who use alternative pronouns. I suspect I'm being semantically lazy in finding it easier to just use she, today. I do recognize other pronouns & do use them in personal speech when indicated.

[hpychick]

Pressurised? Really? Sorry for the derail.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I can honestly say that I have never felt pressure to chemically transition (or simply identify as trans for that matter), from anyone.

I also have never felt that someone thought I wasn't "butch enough". I have often wondered why my experience is so different from other butches when it comes to this issue (?).

I never experienced any outside pressure to transition, it was all internal; nor have I pressured anyone to transition.

I never questioned myself about being butch enough, nor did anyone else. You are not alone, Dapper.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by hpychick

Pressurised? Really? Sorry for the derail.

I am not sure why you felt the need to post this? This is an interesting and serious thread and if you want to make fun of someone's choice of words maybe you could have done it privately.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by PumaJ

AtLastHome, I appreciate the many fine points you've made. Perhaps we are seeing a version of misogyny in action. IDK...

I've had some conversations with a few of the masculine of center (MOC) women I know about the subject of FTM transitions. Most stand very strong in their female masculinity, and whether they ID as Butch, Boi, or Two-Spirit, they each see themselves as being a 3rd gender, alongside dominant culture's tradition of gender binary. That is, being neither female or male, but rather both at once, in female form. In my conversations we've spoken about their individual comfort levels in relation to the various aspects of their female anatomies. None of them are 100% comfortable with all of their parts, but only one has talked about undergoing a FTM transition. Another two have spoken about wanting breast reductions, but not mastectomies. We have talked about the number of younger MOC women making FTM transitions & some of the pressure my friends have perceived that encourages FTM transition. For the most part, except for one long time Butch friend, none of them are very happy with what they see going on. They don't disparage those for whom transition is due to truly feeling as though they are a male trapped in female form. It's just they don't view being a MOC woman as the same thing as being a male trapped in female form.

As a High Femme who is only romantically & sexually attracted to women who are quite MOC, it is my observation & experience that the infusion of strong female masculine energy through the female form is a very powerful combination. Just as it's opposite, the infusion of male femininity through the male form is very powerful. Cultures in other places & times have recognized the power of such combinations, resulting in the acceptance of multigendered societies/cultures. In some, 3rd, 4th, 5th gendered persons have been held in high regard as a result of being multigendered.

As a long time feminist, I am of the view that each individual woman is the only one who gets to determine the way/ways in which she expresses herself as a woman in the world. In that view, I am including all women be they femme, butch, boi, stud, AG, or no particular ID beyond female. I feel frustrated & sometimes angry at those who try to impose their personal understanding or version of being female onto someone else.

If my use of the pronoun she has offended anyone, I apologize. I mean no disrespect, or lack of recognition to those who use alternative pronouns. I suspect I'm being semantically lazy in finding it easier to just use she, today. I do recognize other pronouns & do use them in personal speech when indicated.

I appreciate this post very much- it gets to some things that I may "feel" but don't always know exactly how to express.

Absolutely 3rd gender theory and interpretation fits in with some of what I want to express. Two-Spirit philosophy and the core of the spiritual within gender identity (the Egyptian "Gender tree" falls into the equation here for me also) is something that touches me personally (just me, can't put this on others). I feel like gender theory advances (and will continue to give) some internal peace in many ways even as a FIB or MOC. This is a good thing! Also, it has certainly helped many of my trans and intergendered friends and a family member some peace and hopefully, tranquility and a space for joy in this life.

Yes, "a version of misogyny in action" comes to mind for me during these discussions- and not just as it relates to women- to men as well. It just has always seemed to me that misogyny is a lose-lose-lose construct.

One of the positive aspects of how gender theory is evolving is that finally, it encompasses gender outside of traditional (and stereotypic) notions of male-female, masculine-feminine- going to 3rd gender, two spirit, etc. and creates a space for women like me! My personal gender identification is as a woman and female with masculine physical traits that are adjunctive (without any values attached to this at all) in many ways.

What is rather interesting, however, is that a model going back to Kinsey in 1948 still describes more accurately than any other myself as a gender-blended female person that is individually-based. (http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97...jtc0102.htm#An individually-based gender continuum). Although, there are many newer hypotheses, some delving into we non-trans folks that could bring further peace and tranquility. Well, except for the outside world we have to deal with!

[Legendryder]

I have never been pressured to transition or been given any flack for not being butch enough. I really feel sorry for those who have. I do not know if I consider myself lucky or just have not been paying attention. Either way, I feel it is wrong to question how someone feels in their own skin. We all go through changes in our lives, we grow, develop and in some cases regress. At least for me, I feel different now than I did when I was twenty, or thirty or even forty. Through it all, I have felt one thing: Butch. That has always been an constant.

[hpychick]

juliesafemme,

I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me out without understanding what I meant. I asked a question.

What I didn't ask for was your snarky comment, which incidentally, you could have done privately, and saved yourself some embarrassment. Oddly, not everyone comes from the same place of negativity as you.

That is all.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not sure why you felt the need to post this? This is an interesting and serious thread and if you want to make fun of someone's choice of words maybe you could have done it privately.

[hpychick]

My question was this:

Do you really feel pressurized? Being put in a pressure cooker and cooked until all semblance of the original being has been pressured and steamed out of you? Mine was a shorter version, "Pressurized? Really?"

My derail comment was because it wasn't dealing directly with the posts and was off-the-topic so to speak. I was getting back to the basics. I'll use more words next time so that it's clear on the question I'm posing.

And yes, my comment to julie was personal, and I addressed it to her as such, "julieisafemme."

And yes, I am defensive about it because I thought it was rude and didn't need to be posted there - she displayed the very insensitivity of which she was accusing me.

And, thank you June for moderating.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by hpychick

My question was this:

Do you really feel pressurized? Being put in a pressure cooker and cooked until all semblance of the original being has been pressured and steamed out of you? Mine was a shorter version, "Pressurized? Really?"

I did a google search of " define pressurized" (it can be spelled with either the s or z) and noticed that the informal definition includes "excessive stress" or as, "undue harassment", as listed here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pressurized

I think that there are instances where butches may be "pressured" to transition or, perhaps even in certain scenarios, feel like they must transition because they do not feel "butch enough". Does it happen to every butch? No but I di believe that some feel that they must in order to "compete".

[Converse]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Alot of butches I know are going through gender re-assignment surgery to become male,they are at varying stages of this.

My question is this :
Butches have you ever felt pressurised to have a sex change?

Have you ever felt it off other butches/transguys who want you to follow the path they have set ?

Everyone welcome to answer but I would like to hear off the butches too.

Yes during several stages in my life. The first time in my youth when I experienced a severe backlash from the mainstream lesbian community towards Butch/Femme identities and in looking for a place to belong, and escape feelings of isolation, found myself gravitating towards the gay male culture- and because of my involvement in the entertainment industry eventually found that my entire circle of friends were made up of people in varying stages of transition, primarily MTF. The constant “when are you going to choose?” conversations, and “Butch is just pretend” statements that happened within this group, created another type of isolation for me.

And then many years later when it felt like the only Femmes left on the planet were to be found walking on the arms of those who had transitioned, that the feeling of isolation (and thoughts of involuntary celibacy) returned and with that the self doubt. In my latter years I actually found it harder to come to terms with- as my earlier experiences had been with those who had fully transitioned and now identified as straight men- an identity that I could never relate to, however when I began to meet those who identified as trans-men and part of the queer community, I thought perhaps…

It was the acceptance of male-identified Butch by the community that finally facilitated my ability to not feel any pressure, from others or within myself, to transition.

[Dutch Leonard]

Over the years, not knowing where I belonged or fit in, I wondered if the transgender thing was for me. Sometimes I felt like I stood on the shore and watched others sail away into manhood, into real lives. I never felt like I was in the wrong body, I just couldn't put into words what it was I was. If someone needs to be a man to be happy, to stay alive, I support that. That is their life to live.

Knowing what I do now, and finding people who get it, I am ok. Not everyone gets it but finding this community has brought me home. If someone thinks I am not butch enough or too butch, she can keep looking.