Pressurised to transition.

[T D]

This is just my opinion, but I think there's a very strong distinction between wanting to "be" a man and wanting to be "in" a "man's body". In fact there are many characteristics (generalization) about lots of bio men that I don't really care for. I feel no more manly than I did before, but I'm becoming much more comfortable in my body every day. For myself it seems that it was more about my body than anything, and still is so far.

Just a quick thought to ponder.

Ok, back to bed... not feelin so hot today.

[Merlin]

Can I say unless you walk in someone's shoes you don't have a clue what they are going through !! How life treats them .. What the future holds for them.

Amazingly it does happen .. It doesn't have to be in your face it can be little sly digs,it can be feeling you are in a minority rather than a majority. It can be when your made to feel like your not good enough .. Or that same old question off gay and straight alike "when are you having the op then ?"

Due to the smaller size of the butch femme community over here .. A lot of butches going through surgery of some kind .. To be happier in their skins.

From what I have seen to me it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing. Butch/femme here is a small affair, there are a couple of uk forums but it's always the same group posting with no fresh blood.

I did this thread as I wanted butches/transguys opinions (femmes as guests) please don't derail this thread as it's a butches feeling and points of view.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by hpychick

juliesafemme,

I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me out without understanding what I meant. I asked a question.

What I didn't ask for was your snarky comment, which incidentally, you could have done privately, and saved yourself some embarrassment. Oddly, not everyone comes from the same place of negativity as you.

That is all.

Hpychick. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I did not do it privately because I thought what I interpreted as your public snark needed to be addressed publicly. I did not understand your comment to be a serious or genuine question. The little zombie face is what made me think you were poking fun.

I do apologize for upsetting you.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

I too am in the "old" group, so listen up because I have some good advice for y'all. I am a femme who has spent more than half of her life partnered to FTM's, and I would NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER (I can't say it enough) encourage ANYONE to transition. It is the hardest thing that any person could ever go through, and for the partner, I speculate that it is even harder than it is for the person who transitions.

If you genuinely feel displaced in your body or your spirit, then transitioning will be one high after another for you. BUT - it will still be the hardest thing you will ever do.

To any femmes (or anyone else for that matter) who may encourage or pressure your friends, partners, acquaintences to transition, PLEASE stop. Almost all relationships end when one of the partners transition. In fact most end right away when one partner expresses the desire to transition. When my late husband transitioned, we were in a support group that included about fifty couples, both FTM and MTF. Out of these fifty couples only two survived the transition. My husband and I were one, the other was a couple that began their lives together as Gay men, and one of them transitioned MTF. They are a wonderfully loving couple and I am still friends with them .

I could go on for three hours about all the hard painful things that happen when your partner transitions, but you can find that information elsewhere. I loved my husband with everything I had in me, and he returned my love at least that strongly. He has been dead for seven plus years and I am still not fully recovered ... Not from losing him and not from losing me. Cause that's what happened when he transitioned. I transitioned too - from gay to straight.

Finding my way back to myself, or rather TO my new self has been a long complicated (though sometimes exciting) journey.

Finding oneself is hard and is a journey that continues throughout ones life. Let people find their own selves. Don't push them in any direction. The world had room for every variation on the gender spectrum. Make room for everyone as they are and as they evolve ON THEIR OWN.
Smooches,
Keri

I once dated a genderqueer woman whose previous relationship had pressured her to change. "N" (not her real initial) was involved with a girl who, on a daily basis, pressured her to start taking T and to start saving for the series of surgeries. But, the problem was that, although N did want to have top surgery and did want to have a hysterectomy (because of period problems), she wanted to remain a woman. She is a singer so wants to preserve her voice; she likes wearing make-up and she likes being in a woman/woman sexual relationship-amoung many other reasons. Her ex put her through HELL and N ended up being insecure about herself, her body and her mind. She realizes that she had masculine energy but had accepted that she was born into a woman's body. However, her ex was determined to make her change and all of her self acceptance was destroyed when that relationship finally ended.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Merlin

I did this thread as I wanted butches/transguys opinions (femmes as guests) please don't derail this thread as it's a butches feeling and points of view.

Hey Merlin! I hope I did not derail your thread. I know you are looking for butch feelings and points of view so I hope my femme thoughts were ok to post.

To everyone who has shared, thanks for doing so. As an extreme femme girly girl, I rarely feel the pressure that a butch feels and I appreciate the chance to read & learn as I truly hope that it makes me a more understanding partner.

~love to everyone~

[kannon]

If you're transitioning for someone else, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons. If they are being honest with their therapist, then they wouldn't get the green light for T or any SRS.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes during several stages in my life. The first time in my youth when I experienced a severe backlash from the mainstream lesbian community towards Butch/Femme identities and in looking for a place to belong, and escape feelings of isolation, found myself gravitating towards the gay male culture- and because of my involvement in the entertainment industry eventually found that my entire circle of friends were made up of people in varying stages of transition, primarily MTF. The constant “when are you going to choose?” conversations, and “Butch is just pretend” statements that happened within this group, created another type of isolation for me.And then many years later when it felt like the only Femmes left on the planet were to be found walking on the arms of those who had transitioned, that the feeling of isolation (and thoughts of involuntary celibacy) returned and with that the self doubt. In my latter years I actually found it harder to come to terms with- as my earlier experiences had been with those who had fully transitioned and now identified as straight men- an identity that I could never relate to, however when I began to meet those who identified as trans-men and part of the queer community, I thought perhaps…

It was the acceptance of male-identified Butch by the community that finally facilitated my ability to not feel any pressure, from others or within myself, to transition.

WOW-

This is a very powerful post. Thanks.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Can I say unless you walk in someone's shoes you don't have a clue what they are going through !! How life treats them .. What the future holds for them.

Amazingly it does happen .. It doesn't have to be in your face it can be little sly digs,it can be feeling you are in a minority rather than a majority. It can be when your made to feel like your not good enough .. Or that same old question off gay and straight alike "when are you having the op then ?"

Due to the smaller size of the butch femme community over here .. A lot of butches going through surgery of some kind .. To be happier in their skins.

From what I have seen to me it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing. Butch/femme here is a small affair, there are a couple of uk forums but it's always the same group posting with no fresh blood.

I did this thread as I wanted butches/transguys opinions (femmes as guests) please don't derail this thread as it's a butches feeling and points of view.

I think it is very important to distinguish between perceptions and facts, when having this particular discussion. Several years ago, similar feelings were expressed at the dash site, in regards to the population of female identified butches decreasing and the population of transguys increasing. When the numbers came in, transguys were in the minority comprising less than 10% of the population, a number that some found shocking, because their perceptions or feelings were the opposite.

[Merlin]

America has a larger bft community.

Bft in the uk is a small fishing pond making it very muddied due to the swapping of partners in the community.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

I think it is very important to distinguish between perceptions and facts, when having this particular discussion. Several years ago, similar feelings were expressed at the dash site, in regards to the population of female identified butches decreasing and the population of transguys increasing. When the numbers came in, transguys were in the minority comprising less than 10% of the population, a number that some found shocking, because their perceptions or feelings were the opposite.

I remember the discussions, but a poll on a B-F website might be unreliable. That is the only one I remember- but I joined that site way later than many people here (and there) and the B-F community. Is there any off-line poll having to do with actual numbers that you know of? It would be interesting for a real study to be done across the USA and across the entire community base within the queer populations.

Is there a link for what you cite here to a actual research study?

I honestly couldn't venture to guess what these numbers are- so much speculation. Also, it feels like the relationship among and between trans men and women and butches (of all varieties) is much less volitile lately. I feel like there is much more positive communication going on and less bickering.

It feels good to see this thread take on a sensitive area respectfully and in a way that we feel safe to post and discuss.

Something that I think about along these lines is how varied definitions of the Butch-Femme community could be. Persinally, I see transgendered people as part of it and it history. But, I don't know if this is true for everyone.

Also, polls on these websites usually have only a portion of the total membership voting on them. Of course, there are members that are very active, others that are not and some that join and leave.

[hpychick]

julieisafemme,

I appreciate how protective you are here in such a personal space. I apologize for being reactionary and defensive, and also for saying that you were coming from a place of negativity.

I am far from perfect, and often misinterpret things for whatever reason. Nonetheless, I was rude to you and that's really not part of my typical character.

Thank you for the apology; I hope that you will also accept mine.

Sunny

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Hpychick. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I did not do it privately because I thought what I interpreted as your public snark needed to be addressed publicly. I did not understand your comment to be a serious or genuine question. The little zombie face is what made me think you were poking fun.

I do apologize for upsetting you.

[Converse]

Originally Posted by Merlin

America has a larger bft community.

Bft in the uk is a small fishing pond making it very muddied due to the swapping of partners in the community.

Merlin I understand exactly what you are saying, however, many years ago on my very first visit to a women’s bar in San Francisco, after I had been working in England for a few years, much to my enjoyment I found myself of some interest to the locals who told me “its not like London here, there aren’t very many Butches”.

It’s all about perspective. The whole of England could fit into Alabama – now ask the question, How does the Butch/Femme community in England compare to the one in Alabama?
Relatively speaking, the Butch/Femme community across the globe isn’t large- however it exists, and if we need to find it around us, 99% of the time we need to relocate – or we find it here on places like this site.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I remember the discussions, but a poll on a B-F website might be unreliable. That is the only one I remember- but I joined that site way later than many people here (and there) and the B-F community. Is there any off-line poll having to do with actual numbers that you know of? It would be interesting for a real study to be done across the USA and across the entire community base within the queer populations.

Is there a link for what you cite here to a actual research study?

I honestly couldn't venture to guess what these numbers are- so much speculation. Also, it feels like the relationship among and between trans men and women and butches (of all varieties) is much less volitile lately. I feel like there is much more positive communication going on and less bickering.

It feels good to see this thread take on a sensitive area respectfully and in a way that we feel safe to post and discuss.

Something that I think about along these lines is how varied definitions of the Butch-Femme community could be. Persinally, I see transgendered people as part of it and it history. But, I don't know if this is true for everyone.

Also, polls on these websites usually have only a portion of the total membership voting on them. Of course, there are members that are very active, others that are not and some that join and leave.

Based on what people put into their "How do you identify" here (totally unscientific, certainly) we see a breakdown of 64 FTMs to 690 Butches (this is based on the search terms of FTM and Butch).

[Heart]

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Heart

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

Iran provides gender reassignment treatment and surgery to gay people because it turns them into straight people.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by hpychick

julieisafemme,

I appreciate how protective you are here in such a personal space. I apologize for being reactionary and defensive, and also for saying that you were coming from a place of negativity.

I am far from perfect, and often misinterpret things for whatever reason. Nonetheless, I was rude to you and that's really not part of my typical character.

Thank you for the apology; I hope that you will also accept mine.

Sunny

Oh my goodness Sunny!! Of course.

Yes I am protective of these kinds of conversations. This conversation is particularly interesting to me as a partner of a transman. My experience has been with the opposite in that my partner has experienced other lesbians grieving over or questioning why he would want to transition. Last year we went to a conference in his home town and there was an older woman there whom he had known for years who was visibly upset to see that he transitioned. She felt a palpable sense of loss. That was very hard to watch for me and others in the workshop.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Heart

Why bring in polls and statistics? Feeling pressured to transition may not come directly from transmen, it may come from femmes, the environment, the culture, from within oneself, etc. Heck, I remember reading an article about some country (can't remember which) supporting transition as long as it resulted in heterosexuality. Some here have stated they felt pressured, some haven't. This isn't a research project. There's nothing to prove or disprove. It's about people sharing subjective personal experiences, no?

I think statistics are important when someone uses phrases such as, "a lot of butches going through surgery of some kind to be happier in their skin" or "from what I have seen it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing," because while that may be how someone perceives reality, that does not make it true. In the past, I have seen this type of language develop into alarm and devisivness, and I would hope that people understand the distinction between what a person feels they are observing and what truly is. I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

Based on what people put into their "How do you identify" here (totally unscientific, certainly) we see a breakdown of 64 FTMs to 690 Butches (this is based on the search terms of FTM and Butch).

Is this the one not very long ago (I thin dapper put it together)? I remember that one and some of the discussions about how for some, the items to choose from were confusing. But not everyone felt that way. No, not scientific and reflects only us, here.

yet, it gives some info about what Liam brings up.

One of the things that always comes up for me is the distinction between someone (like myself) that integrates a gender-blended identification with being a butch woman. Never feels like that is covered very well- seems like we take on a either/or stance so often with gender identity within our community here. That feels constraining to me.

On the other hand, I feel strongly that gender and differing throeies about gender are very important aspects of the B-F dynamic that can be quite freeing and not the least bit threatening. I honestly do feel like we have worked through some really tough stuff between butches and transmen and I hope we keep on doing this.

What heart brings up does strike me in terms of the thread being about a subjective discussion about feelings about pressure to transition. I sure don't have any research to back up numbers.

what I always think about with studies/polls, etc. about this breakdown is how the term transgender is used as opposed to transsexual is.

The term transgender was coined by Virginia Prince, a gender activist who developed the term to describe her adoption of a feminine persona without carrying the connotation of changing her physical sex, as the term “transsexual” does. 1) The term has grown to become an umbrella term that is used to describe all gender-variant people, including cross-dressers, transsexuals, those who adopt the role of the opposite sex without medical intervention, and any persons who do not feel themselves to fit cleanly into the gender binary of “male” or “female”. 2) To learn more about GLBTQ and transgender terms, resources, and best practice methods, visit http://www.multicsd.org/doku.php?id=lesbian_gay_bisexual_transsexual_queer_question ing_populations

[Linus]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Is this the one not very long ago (I thin dapper put it together)? I remember that one and some of the discussions about how for some, the items to choose from were confusing. But not everyone felt that way. No, not scientific and reflects only us, here.

yet, it gives some info about what Liam brings up.

I don't think so as I used the backend to do the search. However, I do agree that this is more about what one experiences and/or feels about it.

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by Dutch Leonard

Over the years, not knowing where I belonged or fit in, I wondered if the transgender thing was for me. Sometimes I felt like I stood on the shore and watched others sail away into manhood, into real lives. I never felt like I was in the wrong body, I just couldn't put into words what it was I was. If someone needs to be a man to be happy, to stay alive, I support that. That is their life to live.

Knowing what I do now, and finding people who get it, I am ok. Not everyone gets it but finding this community has brought me home. If someone thinks I am not butch enough or too butch, she can keep looking.

Hi Dutch,

Glad to see you are being true to you. Here is another community that gets it.. http://www.butchvoices.com/.

No one ever pressured me, probably because I would have just written them off. I have had all the labels that go with being gay, trans, homo, queer, butch, stone, top, etc etc, and , well I cut the labels out of my clothes. People usually see through their own filters and just take what they want.

Since my pre-kindergarten years I identified as a boy. Some transition happened in my brain, and that bio-female body seemed to just morph away. I didn't have words for it, I just felt and saw things through what I now know was being transgender. When I was about 3, I began the journey as Tommi, per my dear Gramma who nicknamed me.

When I was a young adult, I was introduced to testosterone by a butch friend. Back then, doctor's thought I was nuts, so, I "experimented" with it from other sources. Not under doctor's care, no lab tests, we were street druggies I guess. Went to Tijuanna and got it from a doctor/pharmacist down there. I had some pretty nasty stuff going on from it (not monitored dose). Any scratch would bleed profusely. I got sick and was hospitalized twice. I quit taking it after about 6 months, as my liver stuff went out of control. I just went forward as I had before, and am comfortable in my won skin. I have identified as male my whole life I suppose, so I guess I could never be pressured. I am sensitive, romantic, and cry when sad, even when happy, and like the rest of us, just doing this one day at a time.

Check out Butch Voices ~ and ^ 5...