Tristan Taormino - loves butch girls

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I saw this quote in another thread. When it started with I love butch girls, I was cautiously optimistic of its contents. By the time I finished I was both amused and annoyed.


"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

-Tristan Taormino


This is why it was annoying to me. I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same or similar thoughts.

1. The word "girl" to me indicates a prepubescent female. To me, post puberty, "girls" become women. To refer to grown people as "girls" to me seems disrespectful and almost infantilizing. It might just be a pet peeve of mine.

2. While Tristan is entitled to her version of what a "butch girl" is. I would have preferred if she worded it as her opinion or preference or what gets her blood hot rather than using sweeping generalizations and stereotypical examples lumped into "butch girls". "Butch" is a very large category of very diverse people, appearances, presentations, genders, etc.

3. This made me chuckle - "Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives". We have Tristan. Regardless of how we now identify, we are female either by birth or by choice. We have your body. We have explored your body. We know your body. We know how to play your body much like a musician plays an instrument. We know how to make many different kinds of music with that body to bring you the different pleasure you might desire. Why does her quote make it seem like some miracle or strange twist of fate?

4. This confused me - "the girls who are a different gender". I admit, I still have trouble with the sex/gender thing. But is this even logical? Can you be a girl of a different gender? Arent you a "girl/female" or gendered in a way more representative of who you are using whatever term you choose to use?

So, your thoughts?

Hi Kobi,

The exerpt looks familiar, and I'm thinking I might have read it in an introduction to an anthology, a LONG time ago. Is this the case?

I have a couple of different thoughts about this -- being a published writer of erotic fiction myself, sometimes you have to tweak your words to appeal to your audience. I'm not sure that's what Tristan is doing here, but that's the vibe I got. Second, everyone has a journey, and I'll admit my own journey of involvement with people who have identified as butch and /or trans has come a LONG way, so words I may have used in the past I wouldn't use today, and views I may have had in the past don't exist today. Lastly, I know several butches who refer to themselves as "butch girl", so while those two words together may not resonate with everyone, it *is* a label that exists.

That's just my six cents....

[QueenofSmirks]

I'm running late so can't read the rest of the thread, but I did just read Post #14 where you explain it's a quote from 1999. Will read (and post) more later!

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

I have known butches who ID as butch but would do a double take if their girlfriend referred to them as "my butch" or frequently referred to them as butch at all. A lot of folks who are butch ID'd do not use the word a ton. I know of two who have complained when others have overused it referring to them. The others may have been trying to impose gender expectations on these people or were overly foregrounding gender.

Just adding that point.

Thank you for this, Martina!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by June

Like I said before, girl still = less than to many people. It's so fucked up.

There is an entire universe of difference to me in the following:

Some guy says "You, girl. I need some service over here"
My lover says "You're my girl" and has that tone of wonder in her voice
I say to my friend "Girl, you need Jesus"
My friend says "I need to check with the girl first"
Someone says to someone else (consensually) "Girl, you need to drop and stay until I say otherwise"

Girl is not a bad word. Girl is not less than. I never get "Sir'd" ever, but I think I know the difference when people are speaking from their own place of internal hierarchy.

Girl does not default to submissive or weak or helpless. Not all girls are children or childlike any more than a masculine word defaults to strong or Top or capable or adult.

You can get "Sir'd" in a derisive way too. It's all in context.

Ya know when people are using a term like girl it's usually in real life interactions with people they know- like how June describes above.

It isn't about deeply seeded gender identity or whether someone ids as submissive etc. It's just real people having real conversations and the ebb and flow of language.

I don't see how anyone can not read the essay by Tristan Taormino and not see that she is quite familiar with butches and that it was a butch positive piece.

Isn't it all about context and intent?

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

If I read that in a personal ad, I would ask her out on a date in a new york minute.

This is how I feel too. I know we all have our own thing and clearly labels and descriptors are important to many, however I am into anything girl, bitch, cunt, whatever, HOWEVER the moment one outside our culture says it I too get a little twitchy (CherylNYC lol).

I'm really turned on by butch lesbians. That very masculine energy whether it overt or androgynous. I especially love a faggie little butch boi. We all have different things that make our panties wet and things we find politically correct.

[JustJo]

Interesting conversation...

I didn't get twitchy when I read "girl", simply because I read it as a creative piece coming from her own "me" space. She likes butch girls. Others like butch bois. Others like *fill in the blank.*

The word girl used to be insulting to me....back in the 80s and 90s when I was younger and working hard to stand up for myself, be independent, and be respected.

Now that I'm a crone of 50 (and, yes, that's a word I like for myself ), I am not offended by "girl" unless there's a derogatory or sarcastic tone included. I work out 3 times a week with a group of 60, 70 and 80 year old women....who all call themselves girls. I like it. In that context, it's embracing the youthful spirit and energy they feel....and I give a wave and a "see ya later girls...have a great day!" as I leave, just like they all do.

Since moving to South Florida, I've felt less "isms" than anywhere I've ever lived. It feels accepting....like whoever you are and whatever you do is all good. Snack and I sat at the beach one day, talking about this very thing as people of all ages, sizes, colors, etc. walked by. We were spotting Family...and loving that no one appeared to give a single rat's ass about what anyone else was doing. We were all too busy enjoying ourselves.

Living here...I've also been called "girl" or "lady" or "ma'am" more than I ever have in my life either, but there's no edge....it's just how people greet and talk here. I'm good with it. For me, context and tone counts for more than the word used (with a few exceptions).

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by June

I read it as her talking about what she desires, using the words she had at that point in her life. Maybe she still calls her Butch partners Girls. Maybe they like it. Maybe some of you think that makes them less than.

We are so hell bent on policing the genders, gender presentations, etc. of others. Not Butch, not Butch enough, not Femme, not Femme enough. Not Masculine enough. Not man enough. Man up. Blah, blah, blah.

God. All the things she talked about, I love too. I especially love it in people who are secure enough in their heads that a fucking word doesn't send them over the edge and make them unable to hear something beautiful. Yeah, to me, that is beautiful.

<Big Clap>

I hate when the whole, "use this exact wording because otherwise we will pound the fuck out of you because you have insulted .000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population of ______ identity, causes everyone to miss the beautiful/power/enlightening/humorous/etc., message, the person was trying to share.

[Massive]

Maybe it's different for me because I'm from over the pond, but I didn't see her use of 'girl' in a negative sense at all. I've been getting called Sir now since I was 18 years old, when I finally got the courage to come out and I went from having hair down to my arse to a short back and sides, it doesn't offend me when I get called ma'am or miss or lady, I do get taken aback when it happens now, more because I'm just not used to being referred to in that manner. I ID as a GenderQueer, Masculine ID'd, Butch, Dyke, which I have to say, here in the UK, fuck, I even have to explain it frequently to my own family, let alone complete strangers walking up to me in the street who see a 6' tall dude, in mens clothes, with short hair, broad shoulders and a deep voice.
I think if we let ourselves be offended by everything out there today, we might as well just shut ourselves indoors, lock the door and throw away the key, then retreat into our own personally built forts in the living room...
People are people, they make mistakes, the good ones are those who own up to it and apologise, for instance, today I was walking along the beach and had a foodbag in my pocket to collect shells and stones so that I would have less sand in my pockets by the time I got back to the car, a large, loving black lab came bounding up to me, grinning, tail wagging, expecting a treat from the bag I'd just returned to my pocket, his owners were not far behind me, the gentleman said "Don't be greedy, that fellow doesn't have any food for you!" then as he drew closer and saw my face he stopped and stuttered, "Oh dear, it's a lady, I am so sorry, I cannot apologise enough." and my reaction was to grin. It was no big deal, it is never a big deal for me, but again, as I said at the beginning, maybe it's a cultural thing from being over here ...

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Sachita

We all have different things that make our panties wet and things we find politically correct.

I think you mean undergarments! "Panties" assumes a gender ID that may not be accurate for others in the thread!

NO, I mean, my assigning a gender to panties indicates a projection of my undergarment preference on others who may share my gender id but choose for their own valid personal reasons to wear boxers

WAIT, why am I assuming boxers are the opposite of panties?? What is the deal with my undergarment binary???

[Dude]

Originally Posted by ~ocean

.. u can reslove it by

3. or don't get mad at ppl who ID diff than u would << now theres a thought ~
4. u can fight the world and stress urself out <<not good causes wrinkles ~
~ocean

I snipped a bit out of what you said here, so forgive me.
I dont even know who you are writing to but will jump off
of this to be clearer about who I am and where I am coming from.

I have absoultely no problem with people who ID differently
than me. If I came across that way to anyone , I apologize.

I tried to carefully describe how a few words feel to me. period.

For most of my life I have had close friends who I would
describe as tweeners (<= in a non insulting way and have had
many conversations about butch-femme stuff with them )
I love them ,they are my friends. All of them very much supported me
as a baby butch when I needed it the most.

I was actually refered to a butch-femme site by a bisexual I had
a quite enjoyable tyrst with. (who I met on a yahoo dating thing)
There was no future for us in the long term because she really
desired femminine women and manly men.
She knew it would be sick and wrong (lol and what a relief)
to try to change me so she steered me to a place to be appreciated.
That was brutally honest and I know hard for her because she
liked and enjoyed me a lot but.....
I warned her , I really did.
Yet she was attracted to ME (but not in the perfect way )
and so it went wilty after a few months.

I can not tell you how many times my life that I have dated
women who have tried to soften me up, change my walk, hair
and try to convince me to dress differently
( to be more OK and loved by them)
I was called sir even with long hair, way back in the day.
This is what (some) butches go through in life and it does become
a war just to be ourselves and secure in who we are , exactly as we are.
If your experiences are different from mine ,then jolly good for you ( seriously)

We dont have the worry or headache of coming out constantly like
femmes do , which I feel quite grateful for.
When we do go out to face the world sometimes it is not exactly
a picnic either. We confuse people , which is fun somedays and
somedays not.
My personal "resolve" is to not change who I am for anyone. ever.
wrinkles show a life well lived (or character I've always heard)
I have many.
This chip on my shoulder, isnt really a chip it's called survival.
I'm sure I'm not alone in having one and I love that it has kept me safe.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I think you mean undergarments! "Panties" assumes a gender ID that may not be accurate for others in the thread!

NO, I mean, my assigning a gender to panties indicates a projection of my undergarment preference on others who may share my gender id but choose for their own valid personal reasons to wear boxers

WAIT, why am I assuming boxers are the opposite of panties?? What is the deal with my undergarment binary???

I just don't like the word panties period! We call 'em chonies at our house. And I've never heard (or even thought of) an undergarment binary, but I think I'm in love with your brain, DC!

[~ocean]

~~ dude ~~ not writing to anyone .. just saying .. thought i'd add a bit of humor ~

[Martina]

I briefly dated a fifty-something male-ID'd butch -- not a member of this or the other site -- who, if say a waitress addressed us as "ladies," would have a sullen half an hour or so. I can't say it ruined too many dates, but even so. . . . . Looking back on it, I am not sure I would go out with someone now who was so easily bruised by a social reality they were sure to run up against with some frequency.

[Wolfsong]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

I just don't like the word panties period! We call 'em chonies at our house. And I've never heard (or even thought of) an undergarment binary, but I think I'm in love with your brain, DC!

Roos here.......but these are adult roos boxers & panties............not under-aged roos like under-roos.........oh damn....... binary age bias. I'm pretty certain that Andi just went by wearing the Jaws boxers that I never wore because they are cut funny and ride just enough to be too annoying for me.

[julieisafemme]

I liked the piece. My partner is not a girl but he is a butch. I would not call him girl but he was not offended by the piece. I liked the juxtaposition of girl and butch in the piece. It highlighted the usual connotation of the word by expressing what many would say girls should not be. I understand that the word might not be acceptable to some people. Some butches don't want to be called he. I would have a problem if I wrote a piece about my partner and used he instead of girl just like she did and then was told I was being offensive, heteronormative or dated.