The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Jett]

Revel in your strength... there's nothing weak about a female and/or women who flips a bird to the naysayers, the peer pressure, binary expectations and walks into "a mans world" every single day with masculinity and a proud swagger to boot without giving up any part of being respected as a female and/or women. This is a space is for rapping about living life openly as a female and/or woman who holds by societal standards "too much" masculinity for the world to be comfortable with... and how we deal with the good the bad and the just plain ugly that comes our way.

The world we live in already is inherently deeply mired in misogyny and sexism, fallacies of masculinity and who owns/wears the boxers and who owns/wears the panties in the arena of the sexes. Sexist innuendo based on a patriarchy's cultural misnomers that women can't be masculine, can't wear the boxers and if they do it's easier to understand if they claim man in them. When we speak and take space in the outside world and in our own communities it's often challenged, we're often put to task to explain as to reason or need, considered insubordinate radicals, wave-makers, put on the defensive, patrolled... insecurities abound.

For good reason? Perhaps... because the patriarchy has something to defend... has something to lose. Something that seemingly has to be taken as it's been proven it not going to be graciously given, and females/women are more than able, and less than willing to be bullied out of it. I find even we here in our own communities we haven't escaped it and it's even more ridiculous, frankly sad to see it played out in LBGQT, Butch Femme communities.

I think something that's not recognized is that Butch Women/Female ID face a special unique set of challenges internally in (but not just limited too) struggling to integrate who we are against binary and patriarchal teachings masculinity = man, but also outwardly/externally being recognized in for both masculinity and female/women simultaneously and seamlessly. It isn't an easy road to navigate or explain. In the real world our women-hood is challenged and we often find ourselves on the outside of women looking in, in Butch Femme communities our masculinity is challenged and we find ourselves relegated a lesser form of masculinity, put on a spectrum, and often replied to with masculine pronoun by default. Is this so bad? It is when it's shrugged off and treated as not as important an issue, not equally offensive or defended as intensely as a male being called a women... it is when it's serving to make us less visible just in it's erasure of the s in she... cyberspace and real world.

Add to that the here and there sexist covert remarks from individuals of all identity... I've heard from "I date X-ID only b/c I want to be the only one in bed with the panties" and from... "I don't identify as relate as female because I "- always played with trucks? Only wears man's clothes? Don't feel feminine? Are masculine? Take a masculine role in life/relationships? Guess what!... stand in line, me too.

Something I find a very personal affront, and again making Women or Female ID seem less visible, and seems to act as silencing, is when our experiences are dismissed as less valid or universal. That somehow because we're butches and we're all born female with masculinity, that it's been the same for XYZ... the "don't forget X's knows what it's like they used to be there too" (except when the shoes on the other foot then their/it's not the same).

I'm sorry but when I'm treated by a patriarchal society like "a woman", treated differently with inequality I don't have the defense of saying (or even thinking) don't treat me that way I'm a man, treat me like a man. It's in no way the same internal experience. I have to take it upon me as an affront on me, not that they've mistaken my gender. I'm the one who has to deal internally with living woman in a mans world, with knowing, yes I am, what they're dissing. I'm the one who'll take that head on from the trenches my entire life.

Bottom line I've looked at that and life through a female existence, a masculine woman's internal space. Yes, there is real experience shared by butches, in treatment we received at a glance from the outside, from strangers... but after that experience is internal perspective and the lens you view the world from. I won't try to claim another's personal experiences as always having viewed the world from a male view, growing up as a boy in a female body if one doesn't try to claim to have looked through my eyes as a female/woman, growing up struggling internally to first understand, then preserve and exert my identity as female when by society standards I acted/behave lived like a boy... and continual fight for my right to do so without being a man or referred to as one... to have my masculinity accepted/respected as valid as a female.

That all trickles down differently, unique perspectives, trials, stories... lived experiences... not a worse or better issue, difference. Maybe this all would be understood better if not dismissed and essentially derailed, droned over by "me too's" that are actually out of place and I often find suspect because of it's sided fashion... "I know what it's like to be you... but you don't know what it's like to be me". Frankly that's not possible.

So... this is about masculinity owned by females/women, those who own it unapologetically without attributing it to anything except who they are as strong Butch Female/Women. Many ID's, certainly some, can relate to some of the experiences here, as we can strongly to some of theirs but this space is intended to discuss our unique perspectives, and as we respect others space, ours is no less valuable and I believe necessary.

That said, I think we have a responsibility to ourselves, and to all women to stand up too, take space, speak on the non-equality in the unique spaces we occupy. If Women ID Female ID butches are treated differently it's solely because of the word women and female... and I can guarantee you the sexist and misogynistic messages aren't focused to just the butches, they extend right though out to all females and women by default.

Ok, to be clear, this is a Butch Female ID and or Butch Woman ID positive space, if you just want to say "I'm a Butch Female (ID) and I don't give a shit what anybody thinks!" say just that. It's about our minds, our bodies, unique experiences, comradery, dead seriousness (and occasional nonsensical general ridiculousness hopefully)... and for supporters and allies of our identity to speak of their own experiences.

This is taking equal space, that we and those who support us come here to find we have some, as I've heard expressed needed... this is not intended to be divisionary. I hope everybody does their best to speak from the "me - I" place and refrain from making judgments about or generalizing others identities. Call me crazy, but, in the end I believe we'd fight together better for our spaces in a homophobic misogynistic world and be a better example if we started by defending each other equally in our own spaces.

Strength and Pride.

Metropolis
*talked out (perhaps for life ; )) but will return*

[daisyfm]

I am not a Butch. I have been a Femme ally for a very long time, so I understand what you are writing about here. Congrats on starting this thread!

[BullDog]

Great thread and opening post Metro. How to carve out space as a butch woman? I have found that process to be a very difficult one in butch femme spaces, although I certainly don't think it should be.

Butch women are not a small group of butches sitting around worried that we are about to go extinct, as it is often claimed when butch women speak up about visibility. We are everywhere.

The male defaults for butches are due to sexism. Full stop.

I claim masculinity, but it is specifically within the context of being a woman, a female, and lesbian (and queer). It isn't something I can separate out from being a woman and female in any meaningful way.

I have at times struggled with claiming woman as part of my gender, but never as part of my social existence or as the human beings I most closely claim solidarity with. I am not sure, still, all the reasons for this. I think part of me was over thinking gender, and as Metro said, even butches fully claiming to be female can feel like they are looking at woman from the outside. I am sure there is some internalized sexism in their somewhere as well, no matter how hard I have fought against it.

However, in the face of some very harsh criticism I experienced when speaking up on behalf of butch women visibility within the last couple of years, I have fully reclaimed womanhood for myself. It is very empowering for me and does not at all take away from my butch identity.

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well. Simultaneously as Metro said. We are not butch lite because we are females and women, and when female and woman disappears from what is seen and acknowledged as butch, it is a very high price to pay.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Great thread and opening post Metro. How to carve out space as a butch woman? I have found that process to be a very difficult one in butch femme spaces, although I certainly don't think it should be.

Butch women are not a small group of butches sitting around worried that we are about to go extinct, as it is often claimed when butch women speak up about visibility. We are everywhere.

The male defaults for butches are due to sexism. Full stop.

I claim masculinity, but it is specifically within the context of being a woman, a female, and lesbian (and queer). It isn't something I can separate out from being a woman and female in any meaningful way.

I have at times struggled with claiming woman as part of my gender, but never as part of my social existence or as the human beings I most closely claim solidarity with. I am not sure, still, all the reasons for this. I think part of me was over thinking gender, and as Metro said, even butches fully claiming to be female can feel like they are looking at woman from the outside. I am sure there is some internalized sexism in their somewhere as well, no matter how hard I have fought against it.

However, in the face of some very harsh criticism I experienced when speaking up on behalf of butch women visibility within the last couple of years, I have fully reclaimed womanhood for myself. It is very empowering for me and does not at all take away from my butch identity.

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well. Simultaneously as Metro said. We are not butch lite because we are females and women, and when female and woman disappears from what is seen and acknowledged as butch, it is a very high price to pay.

Truth.

Unfortunately what it seems like to me from what I hear on the streets is Female ID'd butches are less likely to invest in spaces that seem to rate butch-ness (often) based on a binary spectrum where openly IDing as a female or women often automatically ends up relegated to the lesser end (being stereotyped). Some peeps just want to chill not feel on the defensive. Doesn't seem it's is a matter of not willing to fight the fight, or lack of numbers, most people just don't hang out if they don't feel supported or feel thought of as less than, it's that simple.

That needs to be changed.

I don't think it's the greater community in the "doing", just that it's less called out... seems like they say the answer is sometimes in the silence.

And then some of us are bull headed, but get tired too.

Ok, I have to run, wood to chop... going to be a cooler week.
Metro

(edited to add : Oh and Jack, it's cedar...

[Galahad]

Metropolis and Bulldog, Pushing the thanks button just wasn't enough for your posts. HUZZAH you two HUZZAH!!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Revel in your strength... there's nothing weak about a female and/or women who flips a bird to the naysayers, the peer pressure, binary expectations and walks into "a mans world" every single day with masculinity and a proud swagger to boot without giving up any part of being respected as a female and/or women. This is a space is for rapping about living life openly as a female and/or woman who holds by societal standards "too much" masculinity for the world to be comfortable with... and how we deal with the good the bad and the just plain ugly that comes our way.

It is exactly this - walking in this mans world daily with pride as a butch woman far too masculine for the mainstream that I find most satisfying as a butch lesbian. Most challenging too, yet something that is at my core and feels complete.



The world we live in already is inherently deeply mired in misogyny and sexism, fallacies of masculinity and who owns/wears the boxers and who owns/wears the panties in the arena of the sexes. Sexist innuendo based on a patriarchy's cultural misnomers that women can't be masculine, can't wear the boxers and if they do it's easier to understand if they claim man in them. When we speak and take space in the outside world and in our own communities it's often challenged, we're often put to task to explain as to reason or need, considered insubordinate radicals, wave-makers, put on the defensive, patrolled... insecurities abound.

And it is these fallacies of masculinitythat I find most disturbing! For butch women, for every identity on the spectrum of butch and for men! there is no such fucking thing as male ego! Ego has no gender! And the Id is not only masculine, nor is the Super Ego mainly female!

For good reason? Perhaps... because the patriarchy has something to defend... has something to lose. Something that seemingly has to be taken as it's been proven it not going to be graciously given, and females/women are more than able, and less than willing to be bullied out of it. I find even we here in our own communities we haven't escaped it and it's even more ridiculous, frankly sad to see it played out in LBGQT, Butch Femme communities.
Yes, it is.. very sad. But, no, we are not going anywhere. We are just as viable as ever.

I think something that's not recognized is that Butch Women/Female ID face a special unique set of challenges internally in (but not just limited too) struggling to integrate who we are against binary and patriarchal teachings masculinity = man, but also outwardly/externally being recognized in for both masculinity and female/women simultaneously and seamlessly. It isn't an easy road to navigate or explain.

The remainder of your OP includes many more points that I hope will be discussed here, but, I have to say that our unique challenges and our simply amazing merging and seamless integration of female and male plays a major role in combating the patriarchal binary which all people ought to be involved in. It dismisses all of us and is predicated on structural and institutional sexisism!

There need be no divisions - we are all fighting the same war....

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Truth.

Unfortunately what it seems like to me from what I hear on the streets is Female ID'd butches are less likely to invest in spaces that seem to rate butch-ness (often) based on a binary spectrum where openly IDing as a female or women often automatically ends up relegated to the lesser end (being stereotyped). Some peeps just want to chill not feel on the defensive. Doesn't seem it's is a matter of not willing to fight the fight, or lack of numbers, most people just don't hang out if they don't feel supported or feel thought of as less than, it's that simple.

That needs to be changed.

I don't think it's the greater community in the "doing", just that it's less called out... seems like they say the answer is sometimes in the silence.

And then some of us are bull headed, but get tired too.

Ok, I have to run, wood to chop... going to be a cooler week.
Metro

(edited to add : Oh and Jack, it's cedar...

No truer words were spoken.

And the Silence... it's telling.

[Jett]

Going back and reading my post I see some defensiveness, and I think about why there's even a need for it here, but it's here, so why... I think for myself the problem with what we're talking about here is it like bull said, it's especially noticeable in B-F communities (online) and it makes it feel even more personal.

First I'll say, I don't think, (as I said previously) that the greater butch femme community is sexist or misogynistic, but I do though see a lot of stuff slide. And truth, I hear that same complaint from many sides about transphobic remarks, sexist, misogynistic, anti-feminist, homophobic etc.

I think there's an overall phenomenon going on here (more than just being a cross section of humanity) and I don't think it's purposeful... (except where it is).

Seems there's so much in-fighting, covert and open between identities, and allies, that we're stuck defending ourselves against each other and as a result of feeling dissed by X, or not defended... maybe we tend not to defend X.

I started this thread for Female ID, Women ID Butches (and that's what it's going to be about) but that doesn't mean I don't hear the similar cries of foul from other identities just that this is my personal fight.

And, I still feel it's lop-sided, I still feel sexism and misogyny less called out and that feels personal, but perhaps standing along side each other (because despite the in-fighting I still see us as brothers and sisters) we'd get further, learn more about each other and just be a better ally all around. You can't fight anothers battle for them, but you can support them.

Truly we are different, and thus have different individual battles, but as queer masculine beings who were not born male we share a lot of the same grief from the greater world, and so by default the war.

I wanted to throw that out there though I want this thread to remain female ID and Women ID focused... but I believe it's an important consideration.

My half a cup of coffee to yours,
Metro

[Jett]

One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.

Frankly, honestly... truly...

... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

[adorable]

I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol

Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.

I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.

Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.

Here is my take:

The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.

The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.

What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.

Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.

Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.

It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

[BullDog]

As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.

Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.

I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.

Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.

Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.

I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.

Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.

So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.

The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.

[BullDog]

Adorable, who is speaking out against anyone?

If there are people who want to ignore sexism that is their choice, but I don't see how we can be breaking down any gender stereotypes without getting to the roots of sexism.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol

Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.

I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.

Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.

Here is my take:

The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.

The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.

What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.

Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.

Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.

It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

This all is a consideration, and said something kind of similar in my post (two above yours). But...

... it doesn't change the fact that Female ID and Women ID Butches do have to deal with ID specific issues and need a space to do so. We face sexism and yes misogynistic remarks in these types forums... more so than (speaking for myself) in other areas in relation to the ID itself. Just as others do face isms and phobias due to their own unique ID and situations.

Defaults in pronouns are really just the tip of the iceburg, we face having our "butchness" or masculinity questioned due to the words female and women... we face remarks about lesbian (those of us who ID as one) meaning we like particular a sexual position, 69 to be exact... we face our personal issues being consided less in need of discussion or as an affront (did you go in the other masculine ID specific threads and post?)... etc. etc. We face sexism in our own community from all directions AND misogyny yes, because we've existed in a patriarchal world. Were not immune to it just because we're female, or masculine females or males, many women face internal misogyny and it can come out sideways or direct.

That said... most importantly... this thread isn't about "us and them", my first post pointed out that it comes from all directions... nor is this thread a continuation of the in-fighting (and I hope it doesn't degrade or get baited into that resulting in complete disintegration of space again)... it's not about "them", it's about us and how we deal and can try to cope with what we face specific to our ID.

I appreciate your post, and all due respect (I like you too) but it's a hell of a lot deeper than pronouns... or any one other specific ID, at least from my vantage point.

P.S. Just FYI, the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).

P.S.S. I know how the defaults came about so no need to explain.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.

The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.

Why are you inferring this is an argument against others rather than one for ourselves?

Do you see other discussions between specific masculine ID groups as an affront to everyone else, rather than discussion of ID related issues good and bad? Have you enter those conversations with your points?

This is not an argument... unless you make it one. This thread is not about male ID... unless you make it one.

I for one am hoping it can be about Female ID and Women ID.

[Apocalipstic]

I just wanted to say that I support you, your thread and Bull Dykes everywhere!

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Metropolis;62901]
the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).

QUOTE]

So much to be discussed here and these points (in red) I feel are very important.

Thank you for this space, Metro. I sure hope it remains a place for us to study and disect the issues your OP stated and not get side tracked with TG, etc. arguments. That is just not what this is all about! We need to own our own shit as well as tell our stories, give support, and hopefully leave an intelligent, coherent legacy.

Just hope our space to do this in is respected. We have a lot of work to do- without comparisons!

[Jett]

I think a problem lay in interpretation.

Say: I have an issue with defaulting to male pronouns as a Female Women ID... it should be considered that, I'm having a problem because it affects me personally in my ID... I'm being referred to as a sex I don't identify with. Male ID aren't bitching about it ONLY because it's defaulting to male pronoun. My calling it, is NOT saying it's their fault (nor saying they're the ones doing it). BUT it is hard to express my dilemma w/o acknowledging the "gender" of the default... and the misinterpretation lay in peeps hearing that an argument or Female versus Male.

It's not, and... it's not. I support and respect all my male ID friends (and acquaintances) in their pronoun choices.... always...

... what I am saying though is... respect me in mine.

This is one small issue, defaults, and I'm just using it as an example of why I believe speaking up for oneself continually gets taken as an affront to others. And probably a fair example of why Female ID's face unique challenges in these forums as another very masculine ID among many... just as butch as________... but in being acknowledged for being female as well... neither should take away from the other.

Bottom line... this thread is about Female ID and Women ID related issues... and to be taken as an affront to any other ID is to totally misinterpreting the intention.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

Yes, absolutely, AtLast. Many cultures acknowledge more than two genders, so I certainly believe in gender diversity or having more than two genders recognized.

I do agree with you that feminism has paved the way for many things, including gender studies and being able to critically examine the gender binary.

Sexism is rooted in limiting what woman can be. Sexism is about assigning gender stereotypes to women based on one's sex (female). Men then also are assigned stereotypes as well. It has consequences far beyond how we internally feel about ourselves or how we are acknowledged in terms of our gender, as we all know.

Certainly not everyone who is biologically female has to embrace woman as their gender or one of their genders, but unless we get to the roots of sexism and speak out against the gender stereotypes assigned to women, I don't see how any genders can be free. I also don't see having 5, 12, 86 or infinite genders as in itself fighing the binary or gender stereotypes in any meaningful way other than we all get to have our own personal id.

Appreciating gender diversity is certainly something I think we all want to do and strive to do better, but it's not freeing us from gender stereotypes or sexism or other societal inequalities, it just gives us more individual choice. I also don't think our individual choices will be honored unless we speak out and fight against what's really holding us back. If our society and queer communities remain as sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. as they are now, our individual ids will not be honored in any meaningful way.