The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Here's the short answer: "Just Butch" to me is and always was butch and female and/or woman... it's what I lived as my life as and it never stopped me from speaking, being, taking pride in myself as a female, a woman, a butch.
<snip>

I just feel like I'm playing into the very (online) politics that I don't support.

<snip>

If a online ID system is flawed and were using it, we're upholding it. I know the reason we're using it, to be seen, visible, but I feel like I can easily achieve that without it (we already have/do in R/L). I believe it works well for Male ID butches, and it's necessary for them. But I think it works against butches who identify with being female just in the fact alone it inadvertently draws away from the fact that most butches, real world and here are and are already recognized as female without having to qualify the word butch with an added ID to express it.

<snip>

Last... it just plain feels backwards (to me) to have to ID myself as a female because I'm a butch... and again it just feels like playing into the same online politics I don't support.

Metropolis

I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)

I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.

The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro and Beau, what both of you say does make a great deal of sense. I would like to just be Plain Ole Butch, but when butches who do consider themselves to be female and women don't speak up, the stereotypes and assumptions continue.

I also agree with Metro. I don't id as female, I am female. Woman identified butch? What is that. I am female and woman, and yes when we have to use it so we are not mistaken as being male identified it seems to come off as a qualifier for butch which does seem ass backwards to me. Most butches have female bodies, most butches live their lives as females, why are we using female as a qualifier for butch? Why are all the online defaults for butches male when most butches don't identify that way?

<snip>

Female and woman are already part of butch. It's redundant to say female or woman. For those who that doesn't apply to, I think it's up to them to specify what their meaning of butch is if that's important to them. "Female identified butch" came about as a reaction to male identified butch, not as something meaningful in and of itself.

<snip>

It's sexism. It's the failure to truly conceive that women can fully embrace masculinity as butches and live our lives without apology or reservation for who we are. We are butch. Being a woman and female does not take away from butch, it does not take away from our masculinity.

First, Bully, see what I responded to Metropolis above.

Further, the sexism part is what has bothered me all along. The post I made a couple of days ago trying to isolate reasons behind that was meant to address what I believe some of the root causes are for the sexism many of us witness online. Until those things aren't in play or at issue, I don't see much changing for butches in this arena. I'm always hopeful, though.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

On the other hand, there are things I have expected from Butches, which I know are sexist...or very boy/girl. I am learning to appreciate rather than expect.

Form my standpoint it can be very different dating a Butch who sees themselves as a man and one who does not. We say the difference is in just a word, but it's not. I wonder as Femmes, how much of a guy we expect our Butches to be as opposed to how much of one they are?

<snip>

Which is why threads like this are so important as a learning tool. Yes, Butches who never get on the internetz may not know of gender ID wars, but they do know how it is to navigate the world being different and how great it would be to have friends and allies who care enough to learn what is important to them as Butch. Like honoring their choice of name and gender ID and not just assuming they will know how we expect them to act.

Thank you for this, Apocalipstic. Perhaps your posts (as well as Wickedfemme's) are an indication that this discussion is useful and may change attitudes surrounding butches.

Again, I'm always hopeful.

Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.

[AtLast]

Thinking a lot (and have for years) about both female & male myths. Raising a male child in US society and wanting him to respect women as well as not be constrained by societal definitions of masculinity was difficult. He was not big on the usual sports except ballet (try to do ballet without being athletic) and had a dyke for a parent and grew up in a small, redneck town.

As a butch, some of the stereotypes of what is masculine make me nuts! These did as a heterosexual as well. I see a lot of these stereotypes perpetuated in our community. My female masculinity just does not fit with this at all. Nor do they for male-identified butches.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Met, that is where I reside at the moment. It is one thing I am extremely greatful for, the London genderqueer scene, is that although there are *some* internal ID politic arguments, most of those are from inter-personal cat fighting between long personal histories. There *is* "just butch". And yep, stone is kinda an aside thing. There but it's considered kind of describing a more... erm... personal *cough* aspect of one's sexuality that isn't really what people are interested in hearing over a pint.

Inks has met a few north american butches recently. And although she likes them, a lot, she does find the "preoccupation with constant self definition assertions" rather baffling and a tad "boring."

She finds the online stuff "horrific" and it's something she really doesn't get. I have explained where it comes from. But europeans have a totally different concept of space and community is different because of that tiny little personal space bubble and extremely long history of even a neighbourhood.

TBH, I'm not real confident in introducing her to any butch-femme scenes. I don't think she'd get it. We're used to hanging out with a big mix of people who don't give a single shit about our ID's. And we don't have to explain ourselves because no one cares - our personal relationship is kinda just that: our personal relationship dynamics and none of anyone else's biz. And everyone respects that. I don't tell my friend "I'm having butch problems..." if I have a fight. I tell her Inks and I are having a rough time and I'm stressed out.

the constant referal to qualifying someone else's gender doesn't happen. it seems to give us both a hell of a lot more room. the only time the word "butch" comes up is if it's *relevant* to the context of the conversation. and personally I prefer it that way. I find it suffocating and irritating if people keep refering to me as "femme" rather than "barb". I'm not a group of highly different people ffs. it's like someone saying "oh how woman of you." fuck off!

sorry, turned into a bit of rant there about my own shit... but I really don't wish to even attempt to get Inks involved in the on-line community. She prefers people who "get" her in person and luckily we have that luxoury in london, especially with the choice of genderqueer clubs.

That will disapear when we move back but somehow I doubt our personal relationship dynamics and our ID's won't be a problem to anyone we're friends with unless we make it that way.

Barb, I think that sounds like bliss. It's actually much the way we (C. and I) live, we don't get into any of the "discussions" or go about and about with peeps and worry about who's what and what's who stuff. Unless I know someone from here I have no idea how people identify or if they even do... nor does it matter (unless it's a pronoun thing and in that case I'm sure they'll tell us).

I think Ink will be just fine, not all of us are are all that interested in dissecting ourselves over a brew. I don't know about everyone else but aside from a few B-F get togethers for the most part we hang in a pretty mixed crowd too. Truth though I can't blame you on the online stuff, it's crazy making. Think I'd be pretty used to it, and I love the community but damn... I've definitely never had so many wtf moments r/l. I'm sure I've caused a few of those in others though also... go figure But I have to say the ID stuff I've had enough of (on my part) and I really just want to just be... feels fucking good.

Any way yep, I do think we agree. Hey, let me know when you two get over here, won't quite be neighbors but if you two head down the coast it might be good to share a brew... and talk about non-gender related issues...

[Jett]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)

I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.

The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.

Oh I'm certain it will still be an issue, my choice not to use the online F/W ID'd I didn't think would flip things on their head, it really was more something Martina's thoughts sparked in me that I'd been itchy about for a long time... and just what's right for me.

My longer explanation was more to your concerns, to say it would not change online visibility to do so, also put out my reasoning behind what I was thinking (and maybe a little extra). Not how it was going to change the world... I'm plotting that tomorrow, well not change, more take over.



**********snip*******

Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.

Truth, and I'm sure the conversation will evolve to all those things. I think it ends up hitting on a lot of online issues because there are so many , and well it's here on top of it...

...and I think a lot of it ends up intertwined. Partially why I spoke about aligning my "identity" back to what it always has been real world, and dropping the online ID qualifiers that I felt were tangling me up and seemingly differentiating.





[/SIZE][/FONT]

Still mulling you're "Round 2" post...


Back to you regularly scheduled program.

[Luckydwg07]

"convey level of butchiness"
This is true to me....
Its a reason why I spend more time with my gay friends (men) and queens because we talk, joke & support each other's choices in life.
Its wonderful that we have this avenue to discuss but at the end of the day in my world I don't find any kinship with the butches I know but for 1
I find more freindship here online ...hell maybe its because I've been flying solo for so long? I'm a very appraochable person
I feel a competative nature everytime I am in a group of butchess its not fun it's more of a test! I careless what people think I'm made of and in the same breath wish for more understanding.

Thankyou for this thread

Originally Posted by Metropolis

One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.

Frankly, honestly... truly...

... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

[Kobi]

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

[Cyclopea]

Proud Butch Woman here. Represent!
Enjoying the thread- thanks to all who have posted.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07 ) *

I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?

Thanx in advance for any explanation...

Metro

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

I thought this was a video game controller, lol. But toasters are good too- thanks Met!

[Kobi]

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.

I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree.

There's room for all of us.

Metro

[Kobi]

"Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.

I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree."

Metro,

The nice thing about the world is we all are entitled to our opinions. And we nicely agree to disagree.

Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion.

[Beau]

I'm wary of defining energy on top of all the other definitions floating around that serve only to constrict or limit me and/or my choices.

I'm very masculine in terms of my presentation and my "energy" - or so I've been told - but that doesn't equate to male. It is female masculinity. I wear it proudly. I'm still a woman. That juxtaposition is where I feel my butch energy.

And yes, if one is not a female, there's no reason to claim woman, and many in these forums are not lesbians. That doesn't make anyone who owns their male identity unwelcome in space we all share equally. This is a community of queers of many stripes, and as Metropolis said, there's plenty of room for us all.

Beau

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

Originally Posted by Kobi

The nice thing about the world is we all are entitled to our opinions. And we nicely agree to disagree.

Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion.

Kobi,
Maybe you could come back in and be more specific about what you're trying to say. Because right now I read it as you trying to be the gender police.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion.

as is 'butch energy', as is 'queer' energy.

[Martina]

The energy thing assumes all others can read it loud and clear. That's not always the case. The energy thing, i think, has more to do with dynamics between individuals. As far as i am concerned, if people ID as butch, they are butch, no matter what i may or may not pick up from them. Same with femme.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Martina

The energy thing assumes all others can read it loud and clear. That's not always the case. The energy thing, i think, has more to do with dynamics between individuals. As far as i am concerned, if people ID as butch, they are butch, no matter what i may or may not pick up from them. Same with femme.

absolutely agree, that was my point--i re-read and thought my post could be confusing. (sorry, if that was the case!)

[Luckydwg07]

I guess you could say I'm disconcerting to others in our community. I am strong & masculine in my womanly frame..I am totally butch I've had many descriptions pinned to my chest. I do enjoy the company of all. What they want to be is up to them. When people feel good about who they are one can tell & enjoy knowing them.
Maybe some are not ok with their place in life & so they are upset with me. I can't figure it out. I just stay on the fringe with my door open.
hope I didn't muddy the waters more!!

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07 ) *

I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?

Thanx in advance for any explanation...

Metro

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

I don't support the online hullabaloo surrounding butch identity, either. And yes, I don't believe butch needs to be qualified as female, either. And yes, it feels backward to me as well. (But I know you already know that.)

I've yet to post an ID that says "female ID butch" or "woman ID butch", instead opting for "bulldagger" because it historically describes a butch woman like myself.

The flack surrounding defaulting to male when speaking of butch in an online setting is what prompted my responses and concerns. However, I'm thrilled if that's no longer going to be an issue. I sort of doubt it, though.




First, Bully, see what I responded to Metropolis above.

Further, the sexism part is what has bothered me all along. The post I made a couple of days ago trying to isolate reasons behind that was meant to address what I believe some of the root causes are for the sexism many of us witness online. Until those things aren't in play or at issue, I don't see much changing for butches in this arena. I'm always hopeful, though.




Thank you for this, Apocalipstic. Perhaps your posts (as well as Wickedfemme's) are an indication that this discussion is useful and may change attitudes surrounding butches.

Again, I'm always hopeful.

Lastly, I'm really done with picking apart my gender. I hope this thread can progress to a discussion of how we, as butches, face the world as women and conquer the patriarchal society's narrow-minded bullshit and not merely the disheartening nonsense we often encounter online. Because, to me, that's where our true strength matters for our entire community.

I don't think of butch women speaking up as being part of online butch identity politics, but I do agree that using "identified" as part of describing butch can play into to it. There is no "war." From now on I will make it clear that I am Butch who is female and woman, but not "identified" anything.

I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.

Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think of butch women speaking up as being part of online butch identity politics, but I do agree that using "identified" as part of describing butch can play into to it. There is no "war." From now on I will make it clear that I am Butch who is female and woman, but not "identified" anything.

I think we do still need to speak up about sexism when it occurs, but picking apart gender, yeah it's getting real old.

Yes talking about how butches face and deal with the world as strong females and women in a patriarchal world sounds a lot more empowering. One small thing that does make me smile is when kids are curious about me. Sometimes they will ask me if I am a boy or girl. I say girl. Some other kids just play with me and don't think about it one way or another. I'm just happy when kids see butches as part of the normal spectrum of people in this world and their lives.

My nephew calls Cynthia the "girl who looks like a boy". He loves her. When we go see them he runs in with his arms full of nerf guns and says "choose your weapon!". I get more of "wow Aunt Jenny, you aren't very good at video games...."