Swedish Parents Keep 2-year-old's Gender Secret

[Soon]

Originally Posted by cane

Diva,

in Sweden you don't have the option to home school your children, we see it as a question of democracy.

and... in swedish schools there are no boys- and girls loos, there are just loos....

Cane,

I know this is off topic, but could please explain why the option of home schooling is a question of democracy? (I agree, btw)

I am Canadian and feel that most of our educational system is very similar to Sweden's. We have great schools, in every district--there is equal funding across all districts for all schools and more for those who need the most help--most people do not home school nor are there Charter schools (except in Alberta). I don't know one person who has been home schooled either but I know that it does exist--I mean, there is a program for that.

As a Canadian teacher, I find the school system in the USA very unfair to those who live in a disadvantaged area and monies are directed toward those neighbourhoods where there are *good schools* with *well-off people* (and property taxes pay more for their *better schools* and they feel they deserve them!).

This, from I have observed, just solidifies the inequities in the educational system where gov't monies are sometimes given to those schools who achieve high scores on mandated tests. In Canada, those districts who have perhaps underprivileged students or issues with English not being their first language get MORE money. No one that I have ever met in Canada chooses to live in an area b/c of *good schools*; all teachers get paid very similarly across the country as well.

Ok, I went off on a tangent! My main question is to explain to others why home schooling, in Sweden, falls under a question of democracy.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by cane

Diva,

in Sweden you don't have the option to home school your children, we see it as a question of democracy.

and... in swedish schools there are no boys- and girls loos, there are just loos....

I am a fan of 'stalls' and 'urinals' as to the type of restrooms needed for group settings.

I find it fascinating that most of the experts have no vision of a truly different society. You will hurt the poor little babies because this IS the way the world IS.

If you want to change the paradigm, then stop answering questions about sex and gender. Do what these parents are doing. Why does girl or boy matter? If we are ever going to shed the blanket of the patriarchy, then we must take that first step.

Changing the paradigm requires action. How do you actually CHANGE the way kids are brought up? You do that by actually doing what this story talks about.

How about if an entire small town raised up a bunch of kids who didn't care about day to day drag (the clothes you put on)? There is no boys do and wear these things. Girls wear and do these things. Boys cry when they are hurt and girls do too.
================

There was a thread about this same thing several years ago at the dash site. I'm wondering if this is another viral story moving across the net. It doesn't matter as it'a subject worth talking about. I believe the child's name was X. X does not mean boy or girl. X is required for male, female, intersexed.

[AtLast]

I am having some trouble with this in terms of the possibility of human experiement, on one hand, but on the other, I agree with Pop's parent's premise. And this being done in isolation (one kid, one home), I don't know that it will prove all that beneficial in terms of what the parents are trying to accomplish. Pop will be out and about in a world that unfortunately (but perhaps not to the degree in the US), will make gender assumptions eventually.

Since I do not know all that much about Swedish culture really, I know better than to make any judgement based upon my own. From the little I do know, my guess would be that Pop will have a much less patriarchal structure to deal with in terms of gender than in the US.

This is one of those situations in which time will tell!

I do know as someone from a generation of feminist ideology that wanted to erradicate sex role identification with our kids (terminology used at the time), so many of us were slapped in the face as the kids reached shool age (and pre-school). However, there is a whole lot more to this than pink and blue and trucks and dolls. Just not that simple and how we interact with each other based upon gender and sex roles was really the important piece. But, how kids end up as adults can look nothing like them as children! And with a more gender fluid context that many are living today, the variables are just not the same. Nor, are what may influence sex role behaviors.


This is interesting to say the least!

[Nat]

I think, especially when I was under the age of 5, my mom was invested in giving me a childhood experience more like that of boys than of girls. She did let me wear dresses, but she put me in a lot of boyish seventies clothes and didn't readily consent to my yearnings for barbies. (In fact, I didn't receive my first doll until I was 3, and that was a gift from a great grandmother). She decorated my room with peter rabbit stuff and tried to veer me toward bedtime stories that had nothing to do with good little princesses. When she read studies about the differences between the ways boys and girls are treated, she would often resolve to treat me the way boys were more typically treated. (Stuff like carrying me facing outward rather than in after reading that boys are more likely to be carried this way compared to girls). What I find so interesting about this attempt at parenting (and I do think that's what it is - an attempt - and I think all good parenting does involve some level of experimentation) is that rather than force a girl child into boy roles (like certain mothers of kids around my age were wont to do, they are avoiding forcing any roles onto the kid. I would guess it is a largely impossible task, no matter how much they try.

After Toughy's post mentioning she'd read this before somewhere, I went back and looked at this article. The date on it is over a year old. I searched for an update, and there is no update. Pop was 2 and a half when this was written, so Pop is a bit over 3 and a half now. I wish they would update.

I don't think what the parents are doing can be that harmful to the kid compared with some of the most screwed up stuff that is inflicted on kids in this world. My guess is that the kid will gravitate toward a gender on hir own.

[Toughy]

My parents bought me a Ken doll when they bought my baby sister a Barbie doll. (18 months apart....we shared a room) It was the first year they came out....1959....I was seven and she was six. I was dark-haired Ken with the cool car and my little sister was blonde Barbie. My mother knew who both of us were.

Feminists who forced girls into more traditionally done by boys roles are no different than those who insist boy is blue and girl is pink.

The idea is to let the kids pick for themselves or, at least, know your children as well as my parents knew my sisters and me. Children...........hell everyone......but especially young children should be allowed to explore the world with joy and figure out who and what they are.

[cane]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Cane,

I know this is off topic, but could please explain why the option of home schooling is a question of democracy? (I agree, btw)

I am Canadian and feel that most of our educational system is very similar to Sweden's. We have great schools, in every district--there is equal funding across all districts for all schools and more for those who need the most help--most people do not home school nor are there Charter schools (except in Alberta). I don't know one person who has been home schooled either but I know that it does exist--I mean, there is a program for that.

As a Canadian teacher, I find the school system in the USA very unfair to those who live in a disadvantaged area and monies are directed toward those neighbourhoods where there are *good schools* with *well-off people* (and property taxes pay more for their *better schools* and they feel they deserve them!).

This, from I have observed, just solidifies the inequities in the educational system where gov't monies are sometimes given to those schools who achieve high scores on mandated tests. In Canada, those districts who have perhaps underprivileged students or issues with English not being their first language get MORE money. No one that I have ever met in Canada chooses to live in an area b/c of *good schools*; all teachers get paid very similarly across the country as well.

Ok, I went off on a tangent! My main question is to explain to others why home schooling, in Sweden, falls under a question of democracy.

How Soon Is Now,

it's a question of democracy based on the idea that everyone has the right to the same education.

Maybe some parents are great teachers but that doesn't go for all. Also, in our (I mean teachers) work, helping the child in the socialization process is an important part. Learning how to interact with peers, learning the rules of society. This is harder to achive when going to school at home, with a parent as teacher and no peers around.
Finally, I had five years of university studies to be able to call myself a teacher. Is it possible that I didn't learn anything of value during that time, if anyone without a degree can do my job just as well, it must be.

So, to go back to where I started, everyone has the right to the same education, a good education, involving qualified teachers, this to result in confident upstanding people, with enough knowledge to be able to live their lives and take care of themselves. And also in the end, be able to run our country (vote with knowledge).
That is democracy - people that are not subject to ignorance and that drives our country forward.

(Sorry for my bad english - I am swedish as you probably understand)

[cane]

....and when speaking of the same education, everyone gets the same in sweden, the same medical care, the same dental care, the same schooling, the same senior citizen care, the same wellfare (should they need it) and so on... Should you want someting different that is of course your choice, but then you would have to pay for it yourself. Otherwise, all these things are free in Sweden and everyone has the same rights.
(Off the topic I know...)

[suebee]

Heard today while I was shopping: Mother getting shopping cart with 18 month-old baby:
"You're okay. You don't have to cry anymore." WARM
"You're a big boy. Big boys don't cry." COLDER
"C'mon now! You're a man! Men don't cry!" COLD! COLD! COLD!
All this within about 45 seconds. The poor little guy. I sure as hell hope for his sake he turns out to be a rough and tough kid!

[NJFemmie]

I'm not sure how I feel about it. I voted undecided, but more accurately I feel indifferent - I pretty much feel that it isn't so damaging.

My mom of course told me I was a girl - or at the very least, it was already known to me (duh), but growing up, my parents (more so my mother than father), didn't attach gender labels to anything. I wasn't told that this was for boys, or that should be for girls -- I was virtually free from gender assignments. I consider that a blessing - it gave me the opportunity to really define myself without gender influence.

Now granted, I was disappointed when I discovered I couldn't effectively pee standing up, but it didn't damage me. I dealt with it.

... and I've always said that if I were to ever have children - they would be raised the same way my mother raised me. I would want my child to gravitate toward what she/he feels most comfortable.