Gender Identity Debated at Same-Sex Colleges

[Thinker]

Thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/11/08....html?hpt=Sbin

[Thinker]

From the article...

At the center of the controversy is whether men's and women's colleges should allow transgender or nongender-conforming students to stay on campus when the purpose of same-sex schools is to cater to a single gender. Same-sex schools continue to admit only a single sex, but once the student is enrolled, the rules are less clear.

I find myself waffling on topics such as these because laying out firm "rules" ends up making things black-and-white, and it's hard for me to abide by that when we're talking about human beings.

Each situation is going to be different, and aren't most "rules" one-size-fits-all???

What I do feel clear about is the disappointment in Morehouse College's strict dress code banning traditional female clothing. With something like that, you deny someone the opportunity to express his (in the case of Morehouse) gender in his own unique way. That's a pretty outdated way of thinking.

[Sparkle]

I have no problem with students admitted to single-gender colleges transitioning while there and graduating from those institutions.

I don't believe that it will in any way harm the reputation or exclusivity of the institution. And as a higher-ed fundraising professional, I don't believe that donors/gifts are significantly impacted by allowing transgendered/gender queer students to matriculate and graduate.

My experience is that other students on campus - don't care either.

I live near two of the Seven Sister Schools; I have worked at one of them.

This debate has been ongoing for years in this area and I'm quite proud that despite the controversy and the media-frenzy that has been stirred up in the past - college leadership (Presidents and Trustees) are making the right decision (in my opinion) and supporting those students.

[Kobi]

Interesting topic, once again. I'm not sure I have anything solid to contribute.

On the one hand, it seems if someone enters as the required gender and becomes true to their identity at some point during the 4 years....again, its a process and I would hate to see someone be dismissed for simply becoming themselves.

On the other hand, I am fiercely protective of womens space, especially educational space. And the male/female dynamics and its effect on women concern me. Once the actual transition has begun, I'm not comfortable with a male student in a female space. Then again what difference would the dynamics with a male student be from the dynamics with a male instructor.

On the third hand...I went to an all girls Catholic high school which grappled back then with allowing non Catholics to attend as well as allowing male teachers to be hired. And I went to a Jesuit college as well. Stuff like this didnt phase me back then when I was a die hard whatever goes kind of person. I'm not sure it needs to phase me now just cuz it is too damned tiring to sort out.

I'm thinking Thinker needs stop making me think so much.

[adorable]

I went to a private all women's college. Men were allowed to attend but not graduate. It was a huge controversy. I was busy working two full time jobs as a single mother (I was the only non traditional student and the only one who commuted) and trying to deal with all the stuck up snobbery I encountered to participate in the uproar. They were more concerned about whether men could graduate and not at all concerned that I was killing myself or that there were lots of women like me that could use a college education. (I personally never understood that.)

As I understand it, they decided to allow men to graduate because enrollment was down and it would improve cash flow. I know for me personally, it didn't matter. I was screwed coming and going. I finally was fed up with the elitism and left after a year & 1/2 for a SUNY school. I was much happier and it cost a 1/4 of what the private school did.

Everyone deserves an education. I wish more schools focused on helping people like single mothers, teen mothers, the poor and the underpriviledged.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I have no problem with students admitted to single-gender colleges transitioning while there and graduating from those institutions.

I don't believe that it will in any way harm the reputation or exclusivity of the institution. And as a higher-ed fundraising professional, I don't believe that donors/gifts are significantly impacted by allowing transgendered/gender queer students to matriculate and graduate.

My experience is that other students on campus - don't care either.

I live near two of the Seven Sister Schools; I have worked at one of them.

This debate has been ongoing for years in this area and I'm quite proud that despite the controversy and the media-frenzy that has been stirred up in the past - college leadership (Presidents and Trustees) are making the right decision (in my opinion) and supporting those students.

Were there ever conversations/debates about the "intrusion of women's space"?

I can fully and completely understand that argument......why it would be so upsetting. And I can also see where it might not even get more than a few minutes of processing time because others see the individual as a female-to-male transsexual.

Now I'm not one to discount transmen as men. Obviously. But I feel pretty certain that the majority of those "watching" would always view the individual as a female-to-male transsexual, thus lightening (perhaps eliminating?) the feeling of having a man in a space for women.

I don't know how valid any of that is........just me mulling stuff over, really. But I'm a realist when it comes to this stuff, and I feel pretty certain that many would offer that up as an explanation for their "acceptance".

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Kobi

On the other hand, I am fiercely protective of womens space, especially educational space. And the male/female dynamics and its effect on women concern me. Once the actual transition has begun, I'm not comfortable with a male student in a female space. Then again what difference would the dynamics with a male student be from the dynamics with a male instructor.

Good point.

I used to teach physical education classes to middle school students......a long, long time ago. I moved to a school that did this "selective" PE thing; so once everything was said and done, whoever was teaching.....for example, archery......for that period would end up with a co-ed class.

I *hated* the way having boys in the classes affected the way the girls did or did not participate. I did not notice it quite as much in the English classroom or when I taught high school students, but one couldn't help but notice it *most* *especially* with middle school girls.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Were there ever conversations/debates about the "intrusion of women's space"?

I can fully and completely understand that argument......why it would be so upsetting. And I can also see where it might not even get more than a few minutes of processing time because others see the individual as a female-to-male transsexual.

Now I'm not one to discount transmen as men. Obviously. But I feel pretty certain that the majority of those "watching" would always view the individual as a female-to-male transsexual, thus lightening (perhaps eliminating?) the feeling of having a man in a space for women.

I don't know how valid any of that is........just me mulling stuff over, really. But I'm a realist when it comes to this stuff, and I feel pretty certain that many would offer that up as an explanation for their "acceptance".

I am sure that some people do feel it is an intrusion in to a 'sacred' woman-only space.
My impression having lived in the area on and off for 15+ years, and having worked on campus is that the majority of people who make that argument are slightly older women on staff.
Obviously, that is not a scientific analysis; it is only my impression.
Students seem mostly unaffected, and on the whole advocate for trans inclusion.

The fact is single-sex colleges are not populated by a single gender only. There are opposite gender: faculty and staff and other students. (male students are allowed to attend as many classes as they like at Smith & Mt. Holyoke for example, but they can not graduate with a degree from either institution).

And the number of trans/gender non-conforming students is very low compared to the rest of the student body.

I don't think we are in a position that anyone feels that the power balance that these schools were created to address is endangered. Women receive a top quality education there; without the gender bias of larger/mixed-gender college and universities. The small group of students we are discussing are not tipping that balance, not by a long shot.

AND I think you are correct about the general perception of gender non-conforming students, I do not think they are considered "men". I think this may have to do with the fact that most typical students at these institutions are young and most begin their physical transition there - and it takes time for physical changes to manifest.

What is *really interesting* to me is that there is precious little discussion of male-to-female transsexual or gender non-conforming people attending/graduating from an all-woman's school.

Both the institutions the article cited deal with students who were admitted to a single-sex college as the gender they were born, that gender matching the admission requirements of the college.

When things really get "interesting" and people's boundaries are pushed to breaking is when we discuss a gender non-conforming person who was born the opposite gender than that of the institution they want to attend.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I am sure that some people do feel it is an intrusion in to a 'sacred' woman-only space.
My impression having lived in the area on and off for 15+ years, and having worked on campus is that the majority of people who make that argument are slightly older women on staff.
Obviously, that is not a scientific analysis; it is only my impression.
Students seem mostly unaffected, and on the whole advocate for trans inclusion.

The fact is single-sex colleges are not populated by a single gender only. There are opposite gender: faculty and staff and other students. (male students are allowed to attend as many classes as they like at Smith & Mt. Holyoke for example, but they can not graduate with a degree from either institution).

And the number of trans/gender non-conforming students is very low compared to the rest of the student body.

I don't think we are in a position that anyone feels that the power balance that these schools were created to address is endangered. Women receive a top quality education there; without the gender bias of larger/mixed-gender college and universities. The small group of students we are discussing are not tipping that balance, not by a long shot.

AND I think you are correct about the general perception of gender non-conforming students, I do not think they are considered "men". I think this may have to do with the fact that most typical students at these institutions are young and most begin their physical transition there - and it takes time for physical changes to manifest.

What is *really interesting* to me is that there is precious little discussion of male-to-female transsexual or gender non-conforming people attending/graduating from an all-woman's school.

Both the institutions the article cited deal with students who were admitted to a single-sex college as the gender they were born, that gender matching the admission requirements of the college.

When things really get "interesting" and people's boundaries are pushed to breaking is when we discuss a gender non-conforming person who was born the opposite gender than that of the institution they want to attend.

Thanks so much for sharing your insight and opinions about this topic. I have more to say about your last few paragraphs but need a little time to sort out my thoughts.

Thanks, Sparkle!

[Sparkle]

And thank you for the discussion...

I have more thoughts on it, as well....

Speaking about women-only colleges specifically:

I believe that the women who founded these colleges hoped and believed that 100+ years later our society/government would have made far more significant advances in dismantling gender bias in education and the work place; and that the need for institutions that addressed these bias would be obsolete.

I believe that women's colleges do provide their students with real advantages and networks that help them to succeed.

I believe there IS still a very real need for single-sex colleges, specifically women's colleges.

I also believe that gender is fluid, that both transition and the (typical) college-years are a time of self-discovery and that individuals should be given the space and time and support needed to really explore and discover who they are.

And I believe whole-heartedly in trans-inclusion in the broadest possible sense without exclusionary language about born-gender and physical changes to gender. I believe that you are the gender you identify yourself to be and that includes all the areas between one gender and the other.

I do NOT believe that having an admission policy that is trans-inclusive (broadly) endangers or dilutes the core mission or the institutions' ability to deliver that mission.

[AtLast]

Just want to say thank you for this discussion. I am getting a lot to digest and think about. These kinds of discussions are important for us to have and even with some knowledge, different ways of taking a look at gender issues always helps me. I don't have any experience with attending single-sex schools, so reading posts by people that have is valuable in developing perspective.