"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

I haven't seen any physiological studies but in a truly non-scientific manner, in my trans group, when I attended there was a huge spectrum of guys (from all sorts of races, cultures, etc.) and those that were on T seemed to uniformly state the same thing: crying became near impossible, even if one wanted to. Not because of stigma but rather because of T.

I think if they could do more studies on transguys on these kinds of issues, I think it would highlight/spotlight the same issues for non-trans individuals and identify things that are truly culture/societal versus physical. (nature vs. nuture)

Absolutely, there is really not much out there with studies. And I wonder about quite a few that do exist in terms of reliability because the field does not get funded for researchers to replicate studies and develop new theories to look at.

Thinking that actually, the Tg friends that I have heard this from (T and crying/forming tears) are a mix in ethnicity. But, this is just an example from a couple of guys I happen to know in my part of the world. It would seem like if this gets reported often in support groups etc., there is something going on.

Yes, it would help the non-trans and I'm thinking that so much more would be helpful for families and partners of TG folks going through transition together and also just having more info for those considering transitioning.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Well, yeah, I totally agree with you from a personal perspective.

I'm sure just about anyone would agree with you from a personal perspective that whenver One is subjected to Another's impositions, One is not going to be too happy unless One agrees with Another's stance.

I mean, I certainly didn't like the times I've dated someone who had ideas that didn't coincide with my own on "This is what a butch does, This is what a femme does". Honestly (without trying to sound alarmist), I think/wonder if some people sometimes use these statements as 'weapons' (term used loosely). I think they can be used hurtfully. I also think/wonder if some people don't use these ideas as a means to actually break off the relationship without actually having to be adult and just break it off...you know what I'm sayin'? Now, I'm not saying that's an 'all the time/every time' kind of thing, but I am saying, I do think it happens. But then sometimes, "That's why they call it dating", yanno?


Dylan

Here is the thing Rev...

It does not just happen in dating... Some folks throw their masculinity about like it's their job or someone assigned them to this.. Am I making sense? There are guys out there who will not be talked to by an assertive woman or a woman who holds power because they are to masculine to be talked to in that manner or my favorite they will cutesify you and give you a pet name so that they are comfy and can talk to you like a guy talks to a girl...

I don't think your woman is anything like Mrs Bunker cause well that woman put up with alot of shit from fucking Archie...

I don't think you are anywhere near an Archie and if you were, I see the Mrs wacking you with a shoe...

Do you guys have what seems like a traditional exchange when our, yes, but what I see is a guy, treating his woman right as they should, cause if I was a guy and my girl was giving me the allowance to dive into her sugary goodness, fuck yeah I would be all over the place making sure she was comfy and catered to..

That's just me though...

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Linus

//Little techie beanie on

And you know why they did? Because someone reported. I have yet to see a report on this thread. Is there an issue that you think is something a mod or admin need to address? Push the button. However, I have this feeling that this can be sorted amongst yourselves like adults and that a mod doesn't need to come in here

//Little techie beanie off.

i was told not to do that. To not report, but work it out here. That's what i was doing. Thanks for the mixed message.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Martina

i was told not to do that. To not report, but work it out here. That's what i was doing. Thanks for the mixed message.

Ah. I'm sorry.. I didn't mean to confuse things. While yes, we would like you to work it out but the reality is that sometimes something can't be worked out. That doesn't mean you shouldn't report things. If you feel you can't work it out (e.g., previous history, bad day, the sky went purple) then let us know.

That said, the reality is we won't address anything unless we know about it (this is a reality that we can't be everywhere at once). Reporting a post let's us know about an issue (which was all I was trying to point out). My apologies for the confusion.

[Martina]

Could that BE more transparent? You are trying to remove any political implications at ALL.

It feels DIFFERENT as a person with gender that includes feminine attributes to be silenced or told how she should BE Or behave in the world. It's not just personal. There is a political history that resonates in our BONES.

Telling me how to be a femme is not that different than the stuff i heard as a child -- how to act like a lady or how to be a good girl. The same implicit threats are usually involved too. No one will like you. You won't get attention. Blah blah.

i can't speak for Snow, but that's what her posts meant to me.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Well, yeah, I totally agree with you from a personal perspective.

I'm sure just about anyone would agree with you from a personal perspective that whenver One is subjected to Another's impositions, One is not going to be too happy unless One agrees with Another's stance.

I mean, I certainly didn't like the times I've dated someone who had ideas that didn't coincide with my own on "This is what a butch does, This is what a femme does". Honestly (without trying to sound alarmist), I think/wonder if some people sometimes use these statements as 'weapons' (term used loosely). I think they can be used hurtfully. I also think/wonder if some people don't use these ideas as a means to actually break off the relationship without actually having to be adult and just break it off...you know what I'm sayin'? Now, I'm not saying that's an 'all the time/every time' kind of thing, but I am saying, I do think it happens. But then sometimes, "That's why they call it dating", yanno?


Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Here is the thing Rev...

It does not just happen in dating... Some folks throw their masculinity about like it's their job or someone assigned them to this.. Am I making sense? There are guys out there who will not be talked to by an assertive woman or a woman who holds power because they are to masculine to be talked to in that manner or my favorite they will cutesify you and give you a pet name so that they are comfy and can talk to you like a guy talks to a girl...

I don't think your woman is anything like Mrs Bunker cause well that woman put up with alot of shit from fucking Archie...

I don't think you are anywhere near an Archie and if you were, I see the Mrs wacking you with a shoe...

Do you guys have what seems like a traditional exchange when our, yes, but what I see is a guy, treating his woman right as they should, cause if I was a guy and my girl was giving me the allowance to dive into her sugary goodness, fuck yeah I would be all over the place making sure she was comfy and catered to..

That's just me though...

Seems like it all boils down to the energy exchange the couple has.... and how they nurture this as well as negotiate it.

Thinking that an asshole is an asshole, no matter the energy or gender. When I look at my relationships and even at my parents, I see a varied constellation with each partner being able to be who they are. Sure, issues/problems existed, but so did the will to overcome them. I am a very fortunate person. This just isn't how many people have experienced relationships. And there is always work to be done on myself.

There is a very big difference between integrating what gets put in the traditional pile of roles and how people adapt these to their relationship. I certainly knew in my last relationship that the femme I was with was no door mat! No way! Nor was I (I tend to be a care-taker, which has not always served me well). Sure, we had some of the traditional stuff going on... but there was a clear line with both of us respecting each other and ourselves. Thinking that any of us could end up in an abusive situation no matter how we put this together.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Here is the thing Rev...

It does not just happen in dating... Some folks throw their masculinity about like it's their job or someone assigned them to this.. Am I making sense? There are guys out there who will not be talked to by an assertive woman or a woman who holds power because they are to masculine to be talked to in that manner or my favorite they will cutesify you and give you a pet name so that they are comfy and can talk to you like a guy talks to a girl...

I don't think your woman is anything like Mrs Bunker cause well that woman put up with alot of shit from fucking Archie...

I don't think you are anywhere near an Archie and if you were, I see the Mrs wacking you with a shoe...

Do you guys have what seems like a traditional exchange when our, yes, but what I see is a guy, treating his woman right as they should, cause if I was a guy and my girl was giving me the allowance to dive into her sugary goodness, fuck yeah I would be all over the place making sure she was comfy and catered to..

That's just me though...

Ok, now I get what is going on. For some reason, I thought we were talking about dating/partnering relationships. I didn't realize we were speaking across the board throughout all types of relationships.

Yes, I see what you're saying now.


This All Makes Much More Sense Now,
Dylan

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by always2late

I have been pondering something for a bit...and I decided to start a thread about it.

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".

I was wondering if it would be possible to open a discussion on this premise. I am especially interested in the opinions of our butch/FTM community, and anyone else who has struggled with the idea of gender and the "traditional" roles prescribed by society. What are your views as to what constitutes masculine attributes and/or "personality"? And have you found your ideas challenged by family, friends, significant others, or society in general?

P.S. Came back to edit and add this....for the femmes...what do you look for in a partner with regard to masculinity? What are your ideas and/or preferences in this area?

My father (a child of the Greatest Generation) was a sensitive man with strength. I saw my father cry many times on many occasions, but never considered this to be a feminine trait. My mother was equally strong and dished out the penalties. I would always wonder, as a child, why my friends would be more scared of punishment from their father. I thought it was strange because if you even considered looking at my mother wrong, she'd take your head off faster than a New York minute. My mother had, if I had to place a word on it, inner strength. She ran the household financially.

I considered my father to be a man's man of his generation in some ways and I guess anti-stereotypical in others as I grew and came to understand more of what I observed. I tried to emulate him more than my mother because I felt a gender kinship with him. Both of them define me. When I observe masculinity in men, I see many things. Some of which I have always had/felt and others that don't fit me at all.

I've always looked for both strength and sensitivity in a partner. The strength shown by my mother and the sensitivity by my father.

[Jess]

I think for me the issue I have when considering "traditional" anything is exactly what tradition am I looking at? I consider myself Retrosexual, in that I seek the best from past observations of "male" and choose to exemplify those rather than the influences I see that were negative in those eras.

I like using handkerchiefs. I like opening the door for my wife. I prefer being well dressed over slovenly when in a public setting ( dinner, etc). I would probably frequent a barber shop over a uni-sex salon if I were FTM/ Man. I like my shoes shined and take pride in that.

Many of the things that I view as being a "man's man" are from my grandfather or great grandfather's generation and not my dad's. From him, I learned that it was ok for a man to be sensitive and playful. ( That's about it though, as he was pretty irresponsible).

As a butch woman "metrosexual" doesn't really work for me, as it appears too effeminate ( for me). Tough guy doesn't really work ( unless I am in scene), Dumb Dad ( read: Tool Time) doesn't always work as I am a bit too enlightened for that. So, traditional is vague for me.

I do enjoy the Butch-femme dynamic over any other that i have seen employed, as it just seems to fit for me. Now... defining Butch and Femme takes on a whole nother debate! LOL!

Thanks for the thread miss always

[WickedFemme]

I am femme and I am attracted to masculine looking butches - it's just a preference and it makes me hot.
The only aspects of masculine that I don't particularly care for are the negative ones in which they have been used to oppress or put down someone due to some kind of sense of superiority and/or entitlement.
The rest of it - whatever floats your boat...
I am femme but I don't identify or fit with the stereotypical charactersitics other than perhaps my outward appearance. I'm quite confident that nothing joepardizes my femmeness including topping versus bottoming.

[Locutus]

Fancy meeting you here!

Originally Posted by WickedFemme

I am femme and I am attracted to masculine looking butches - it's just a preference and it makes me hot.
The only aspects of masculine that I don't particularly care for are the negative ones in which they have been used to oppress or put down someone due to some kind of sense of superiority and/or entitlement.
The rest of it - whatever floats your boat...
I am femme but I don't identify or fit with the stereotypical charactersitics other than perhaps my outward appearance. I'm quite confident that nothing joepardizes my femmeness including topping versus bottoming.

[WickedFemme]

Originally Posted by Locutus

Fancy meeting you here!

Hey you!
lol