"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[always2late]

I have been pondering something for a bit...and I decided to start a thread about it.

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".

I was wondering if it would be possible to open a discussion on this premise. I am especially interested in the opinions of our butch/FTM community, and anyone else who has struggled with the idea of gender and the "traditional" roles prescribed by society. What are your views as to what constitutes masculine attributes and/or "personality"? And have you found your ideas challenged by family, friends, significant others, or society in general?

P.S. Came back to edit and add this....for the femmes...what do you look for in a partner with regard to masculinity? What are your ideas and/or preferences in this area?

[julieisafemme]

I am not sure I know what traditional masculinity is. Is it like OFOS butches? Is it a nostalgia for another era or time?

[Apocalipstic]

I think times have way changed and many attributes that used to be seen as "masculine" can apply to anyone now.

It really freaked me out when I realized I was a Lesbian and people kept telling me how feminine I am...growing up everyone was always all over me trying to get me to BE more feminine.

I like a partner who is not way set into being entirely masculine in every way. One, because we are both women and two, because in many ways even though I look pretty damn girly, I am not, especially emotionally and sexually.

Now, if you look at us on the outside, then yes we LOOK very traditionally boy/girl.

edited to add: I am in a relationship with a woman, I am not saying that everyone on this site is a woman, many are not.

[GentleAndro]

As for what is considered "masculine" that is indeed a sticky wicket. So much of what is defined as "masculine" is influenced by family and society and culture so I can't speak from anything but my own experience.

I was raised by a quiet man who treated everyone with courtesy and respect, but women a bit more so by opening doors, paying the bill, etc. As such, I picked that up. Because I'm a woman, I intrinsically value the strength, independence and determination found in women. Being born a woman, I understand firsthand what it means to be invisible or passed over as a result of "male privilege." If I had been born a male, or self-identify as a male, I may not fully understand these concepts on a deep seated level. As such, I think that influences how I treat women with my "masculine" nature.

With all that said, I do find that I naturally have many traits that society deems "masculine" (whether right or wrong.) I'm logical, not much of a talker except those close to me, a "fixer" a "protector" and a "provider." Those are all comfortable for me. However, other areas that society deems "masculine" I'm loathe to embrace simply because I identify more as "butch" than as "femme" such as : aggressive, cocky, brash, a womanizer, etc. Note that I don't assume that to identify as "butch" one is any of those things, but from my experience over the years, I've witness many "butch" women (especially in the early coming out years) look at their male counterparts and choose to automatically demonstrate all behaviors and dress (positive and negative) simply as the "easy" way to seem more masculine rather than look within themselves to define their own demonstration of their masculine traits.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by always2late

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".

P.S. Came back to edit and add this....for the femmes...what do you look for in a partner with regard to masculinity? What are your ideas and/or preferences in this area?

For me, I need to be with someone that exhibits some of the more traditional traits and actions of masculinity that you are probably attracted to yourself.

I like the physical manifestation of masculinity as I see it, such as shorter hair, callused hands, deeper voice, and masculine dress.

It's not only because it's what I like to see and feel, but the more masculine my partner presents, the more feminine I feel. Some femmes view themselves the same no matter who they are with. I am not like that. I need that balance.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not sure I know what traditional masculinity is. Is it like OFOS butches? Is it a nostalgia for another era or time?

For myself, it is similar to OFOS butches in behavior and mannerisms and looks, yes.

Originally Posted by GentleAndro

As for what is considered "masculine" that is indeed a sticky wicket. So much of what is defined as "masculine" is influenced by family and society and culture so I can't speak from anything but my own experience.

I was raised by a quiet man who treated everyone with courtesy and respect, but women a bit more so by opening doors, paying the bill, etc. As such, I picked that up. Because I'm a woman, I intrinsically value the strength, independence and determination found in women. Being born a woman, I understand firsthand what it means to be invisible or passed over as a result of "male privilege." If I had been born a male, or self-identify as a male, I may not fully understand these concepts on a deep seated level. As such, I think that influences how I treat women with my "masculine" nature.

With all that said, I do find that I naturally have many traits that society deems "masculine" (whether right or wrong.) I'm logical, not much of a talker except those close to me, a "fixer" a "protector" and a "provider." Those are all comfortable for me. However, other areas that society deems "masculine" I'm loathe to embrace simply because I identify more as "butch" than as "femme" such as : aggressive, cocky, brash, a womanizer, etc. Note that I don't assume that to identify as "butch" one is any of those things, but from my experience over the years, I've witness many "butch" women (especially in the early coming out years) look at their male counterparts and choose to automatically demonstrate all behaviors and dress (positive and negative) simply as the "easy" way to seem more masculine rather than look within themselves to define their own demonstration of their masculine traits.

I loved this post as a whole, but especially the underlined parts.

I love the representation of masculinity, but not when it turns into a WWF free for all. The brassness and crude behaviors can take a hike for all I care. Please don't posture. It's not pretty and it's not productive.

The other behaviors and traits that you described are lovely, though.

[Blade]

I'm pretty stereotypical in the masculine attributes department, except I'm not a womanizer. A huge flirt, yeah probably so but not a womanizer. Though I am cocky, some femmes like that others don't, I know when to tone it down. I can be aggressive, but am normally pretty laid back. Besides those things yep I'd say my masculine attributes stand pretty tall in the realm of things. And I prefer typically feminine attributes in my femme as well.

[always2late]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not sure I know what traditional masculinity is. Is it like OFOS butches? Is it a nostalgia for another era or time?

I am, in many respects, a product of my upbringing and culture. I was raised in a traditional Italian home, one where gender "roles" were very clearly defined. I suppose, for better or worse, that has influenced my ideas as to what constitutes "masculine" or "feminine" behavior. That is not to say that I am rigid or intolerant, or that I think anyone should be forced into a role they don't assign to themselves...its just that for me, personally, I find myself more attracted to partners who exhibit those traditional traits.

[little man]

i think that the changes that are being "forced" on men/masculinity are a function of social evolution. nothing remains the same forever. i'm sure that the brand of masculinity that was prevalent in the 40's would look positively sissified to men of earlier times...say the mid 19th century type of masculinity. times change and people change with them, or they perish. i think that with the advances in equality for women, men have felt less inclined to be as chivalrous as was once the norm. evolution or just pissed off? the reason doesn't matter so much as the end result. i think we are seeing a response to men not being the sole support of families, women having careers outside the home and, in general, becoming even marginally more equal to their male counterparts. i think, in part, men resent women not "needing" them for as much as they once did...although that means a lighter work load for men in general. perhaps the resentment is based in feeling less valued? (talk about your shoe on the other foot)

i was raised by my grandparents. the values they instilled in me are those of folks who grew up in a rural, less educated, depression era. i find that my standards for behavior (for myself and others) is based in those values. personally, i think women are the most magnificent creatures on the planet. being raised female, i can see a bit of both sides here...i'm not inclined to erase the first part of my life to live this part of it. i understand being undervalued, considered "less than". it has been my experience that women are some of the strongest, most formidable people there are. i don't have the resentment of women that many born men have...i lived too long in a female role to do that.

my grandmother always told me that good manners never go out of style. she was right. i was raised to be mannerly, considerate and courteous. my gender has nothing to do with exhibiting those qualities. am i masculine? ask anyone who knows me in real time. even the guys i know now think i'm a cool dude...and i'm not shy about saying i enjoy cooking or that i'm good with laundry or that i want to try my hand at quilting. i like to think that i'm just a well mannered, well rounded man.

[always2late]

little man you raise a very good point about the attributes of masculinity, and what is considered the "norm" evolving over time, and reflecting the times we live in. Thank you for your input

[Hack]

I was raised mostly by my paternal grandfather who was a five-star gentleman -- impeccable manners, impeccable taste in everything. I grew up emulating him in many ways. I open doors, hold out chairs, stand up when a girl gets up or enters a room, take off my ballcap for the national anthem, the whole deal. I like to pay the tab, but was softened up a bit last year while spending time with a European woman who found my manners horribly old-fashioned.

I was also raised around very old school Polish-Catholic uncles on the other side of the family, who were rowdy, loud, whistled at pretty girls, yet would take out anybody with a punch who disrespected their mom or their sisters.

My life is a study in dichotomy.

I've worked hard the last few years to better understand and to better communicate with women. I've learned to express myself when I am comfortable doing so, and sometimes when I am not comfortable doing so. It's really hard to get over those stoic German roots. I'm a writer by trade, and I often find it easier to discuss my feelings on paper (and sometimes in email, though I loathe it as a medium).

I think manners are taught, along with respect. Sometimes, though, we pick up bad habits of passive-aggressiveness or shutting off communication when faced with a big problem. I try very hard to treat everyone around me with kindness and respect. It's only at work that I can be an aggressive, direct person...but that seems to motivated people in that setting. I'm a nice guy, basically, and I don't like to think I am a dying breed.

Jake

[Write14u]

I hear ya, Jake. Excellent points.

I have these kinds of conversations with my roomie and good friend, who is a bio-male. He just seems so lackadaisical in this category. I mean, he is well-mannered, but it seems like he's content to just do things halfway.

I know I picked up a lot of things from my dad, who does his thing in a quiet way. But there are things I didn't learn from him. I picked up many things from a guy I knew in high school. I think my thing was a fascination with the old-school, gentlemanly behavior. There are a lot of traits associated with masculinity, but ones like those are the ones I prefer to co-opt.

[little man]

Originally Posted by always2late

I have been pondering something for a bit...and I decided to start a thread about it.

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".

i've been thinking about this portion of your post. a couple of questions, if you don't mind indulging me.

i'm curious to know how your dad sees that being more sensitive impinges on his masculinity. did he happen to say what it was, in particular, that he feels like he's losing? it would seem, to me, to be a gain.

can you help me out with this?

[always2late]

Originally Posted by little man

i've been thinking about this portion of your post. a couple of questions, if you don't mind indulging me.

i'm curious to know how your dad sees that being more sensitive impinges on his masculinity. did he happen to say what it was, in particular, that he feels like he's losing? it would seem, to me, to be a gain.

can you help me out with this?

Sure

A little background first though....my dad was brought up with even stricter gender roles than my generation. However, his mom became ill when he was very young. So my dad became a dichotomy of sorts. He took on what would be considered, at that time, the "woman's" job...cooking, cleaning, caring for his younger sister, etc...

Its also of note that my dad, a longshoreman by trade, discovered that he had a talent for floral design (and he really is incredible at it...he had a side business in it for years)

So, I don't think he was speaking of the specific "jobs" assigned to men. I tend to think he was speaking of the more intangible, for lack of a better word, aspects of his idea of "masculinity". He was taught that men are chivalrous, respectful, and strong, not just physically, but in character as well. That they endure without complaining. They are the providers and the protectors. For my dad, a man that does not hold a door open for a woman, or offer her his seat, or defend her when she is threatened, is, in his view, a "lesser man". It is his belief that men do not put their own needs first, their purpose is to take care of and provide for their family and to keep them safe. However, he also believes that men do not show their feelings, or weaknesses, or flaws....that it undermines their strength to do so.

What can I say? While I don't always agree with all of my father's beliefs or ideas, I have to look at the source and realize that he is, as we all are to some extent, a product of what he was brought up to believe. We can modify and alter those beliefs somewhat...but many of them are deep-rooted.

[little man]

Originally Posted by always2late

Sure

A little background first though....my dad was brought up with even stricter gender roles than my generation. However, his mom became ill when he was very young. So my dad became a dichotomy of sorts. He took on what would be considered, at that time, the "woman's" job...cooking, cleaning, caring for his younger sister, etc...

Its also of note that my dad, a longshoreman by trade, discovered that he had a talent for floral design (and he really is incredible at it...he had a side business in it for years)

So, I don't think he was speaking of the specific "jobs" assigned to men. I tend to think he was speaking of the more intangible, for lack of a better word, aspects of his idea of "masculinity". He was taught that men are chivalrous, respectful, and strong, not just physically, but in character as well. That they endure without complaining. They are the providers and the protectors. For my dad, a man that does not hold a door open for a woman, or offer her his seat, or defend her when she is threatened, is, in his view, a "lesser man". It is his belief that men do not put their own needs first, their purpose is to take care of and provide for their family and to keep them safe. However, he also believes that men do not show their feelings, or weaknesses, or flaws....that it undermines their strength to do so.

What can I say? While I don't always agree with all of my father's beliefs or ideas, I have to look at the source and realize that he is, as we all are to some extent, a product of what he was brought up to believe. We can modify and alter those beliefs somewhat...but many of them are deep-rooted.

thank you...i had supposed it was along these lines. your dad and mine must be of about the same age.

i love the fact that he's fabulous with floral arrangements. i also find that kind of ironic, in a conversation about "traditional" male roles.

for the most part, i would agree with your dad's measure of a man. it sounds as if the emotional piece is what's problematic for him.

[always2late]

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

[little man]

Originally Posted by always2late

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

while frustrating for men "of a certain age", perhaps this shift toward sensitivity and emotion on the part of men bespeaks progress for men in their overall evolution.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by always2late

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

So do you typically date Men, or Butches?

[always2late]

I date whomever I am attracted to and who exhibits the personality and character that I find desirable in a partner.

[Soon]

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


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Thoughts?

[Apocalipstic]

A problem for me has been expecting my partners to be a certain way based on what they look like or who they say/think they are.

If they present themselves as men in a "traditional" non "sensitive" kind of way, and I act accordingly (naturally), since I am horribly lacking on the romantic (remembering your birthdays and anniversary) and cuddling/foreplay department. They are upset that I am treating them like a man, when they are not. While really I am just being myself.

I see myself as a dude emotionally and have been told that by every single person I have dated in my 32 years of dating. I try to be more emotional and romantic, I do.

So expecting a person to be a certain way even if they think themselves that they are traditionally masculine in every way, does not mean they really are.

Am I making any sense at all?